Turning to AT to help me reach my goals

[allies]

Hey everyone.

I'm looking to put on some weight this summer, however, I'm not 100% sure of the route to take, since I have other goals as well. I'll break it down as follows:

2 weeks ago I did a marathon. I weighed about 152 the week before the marathon, now I weigh about 154 (combination of lifting and not running as much). I did well enough to qualify for Boston, so getting into shape for that will be my long term goal.

My short term goal is to bulk up a little bit and put speed underneath me. I'd like to run a 10K in less than 34 minutes by the end of the summer. Getting the speed probably won't be a problem, but the bulking at the same time will be in my opinion.

When I say bulk, I don't really want to go through a bulking and cutting phase. I actually just want to get up to about 165 lbs. Even if I added 8.5 lbs muscle / 1.5 lbs of fat or something like that, that would be AWESOME. I've never weighed more than 160 in my life (if you don't count the one time in highschool where I weighed 157 and drank about 2 liters of water to push me over the top 😀

So... how do I go about doing this? I read a little of the sticky.. but I'm not trying to lose weight. Right now I'd estimate I'm about 6% BF. As mentioned before, I'm not trying to get HUGE. Just a little bigger and stronger. Plus doing this while working on my speedwork.

I've never really lifted lower. My mileage from running made it seem somewhat counter intuitive to both lift and pound out the miles at the same time. My legs are already bigger than 80% of the curl jockeys' at the campus gym.

Anyone want to help prescribe me a method get me on my way to my goal... gaining weight while allowing me to work on my leg speed for mid/long distance runs.

Wanna throw out there that I have the perfect pushup thingers. I was thinking I could do the prescribed program with that MWF and do a pullup/back routine on T/TH while sticking to my running program, ensuring that I get enough to eat, and see what happens from there? Comments?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

You're gonna have to weigh the benefits vs. the cost here. If you are going to be running a marathon, I would say that there are very few benefits and a great deal of costs. If you were competing at something like a 5k, then it might be worth it, but putting 10 pounds on will greatly affect your marathon running. That 10 pounds extra you have to move each step for 26.2 miles. Why do you want to do this? The power increase won't really help with the longer distance. Are you doing it for aesthetics? For other things? Just to be over 160? Because it won't really help your longer races.

 

[allies]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
You're gonna have to weigh the benefits vs. the cost here. If you are going to be running a marathon, I would say that there are very few benefits and a great deal of costs. If you were competing at something like a 5k, then it might be worth it, but putting 10 pounds on will greatly affect your marathon running. That 10 pounds extra you have to move each step for 26.2 miles. Why do you want to do this? The power increase won't really help with the longer distance. Are you doing it for aesthetics? For other things? Just to be over 160? Because it won't really help your longer races.

Boston is in mid-April. I figure that getting to 165ish plus a good deal of speed underneath me for a 10K will provide a good base for training in late fall/early winter (I only need 4 months to get in shape for the marathon, and going into it with speedwork will be very very beneficial). I'm assuming that I'll come back down to 155 by the time Boston rolls around, which is fine in my book. I wasn't planning on running the marathon at 165 🙂

 

[brikis98]

First, I'd have to say that getting to 165 sounds like an arbitrary goal that will be tough for you to accomplish while doing lots of running. Since it may negatively affect your training, you really should take the time to think about whether or not it's worth chasing a random number or if you would really benefit from achieving it.

Having said that, if you want to gain muscle mass, there are two things you have to do:

(1) Diet. This is far and away where most people fail when trying to bulk, especially those that burn up lots of energy with long distance running. You must eat a caloric surplus, as the extra mass you want to add has to come from somewhere. Trying to guess that you're in a caloric surplus is very likely to fail, so start using a sit like fitday.com or the dailyplate.com to track your caloric intake and expenditure. Shoot for a 300-600 calorie surplus per day. Don't overdo it, as too much of a surplus will typically produce more fat gain. Also, remember that calorie tracking is just an estimate - you can't really measure how many calories your body burned or absorbed, so you'll never be exactly correct. However, you can use a scale to measure your bodyweight and use that to verify your caloric estimates. If your weight is increasing at a reasonable rate, your estimates are good. If it's not, you are miscalculating somewhere and need to adjust until the number on the scale gets moving. One of the easiest ways to add a whole lot of mass in a hurry is to drink a gallon of milk a day, aka GOMAD. There aren't many guarantees in life, but if you actually do GOMAD, I assure you that you'll be at 165lbs in no time.

(2) Muscular stimulus. You need to give your body the proper stimulus so that it decides to turn the caloric surplus from step 1 into muscle mass rather than fat. As discussed in the Bill Starr thread, the exercises that provide this stimulus best are full body, compound exercises done with heavy weight. In particular, squats and deadlifts are known for working almost all the muscles in your body and producing massive hormonal responses that add muscle mass like nothing else. Although push-ups are a great exercise (not sure why you need the "perfect push-up," but that's a different discussion) but in terms of mass gain, they will not come close to the kind of stimulus you get from squats. If you're serious about adding mass in a hurry, do a program like Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5. No, the kind of strength you get from running a lot is absolutely nothing like the strength you get from squatting and deadlifting. However, these programs are really taxing on the CNS, so to do them properly, you may have to cut down on your running, at least initially, while your body adapts to the new stress.

 

[Capt Caveman]

Based on your particular needs, I highly recommend posting in the runnersworld forums.

 

[allies]

birkis - thanks for the tips

1) yeah I got this locked up since my mom teaches health and nutrition and does work with athletes and stuff doing executive physicals and all that jazz. I got my BMR tested and it was like 2300 cal/day... so I need to eat a LOT to have a net positive, especially considering I'll be running 30-40 miles a week and walking another 10-20 miles a week (classes, boo)

2) I was really intrigued after that thread, that's specifically why I mentioned I've never done squats before. So doing speedwork (400s on 65s, 800s on 220s) won't do much to get my legs? I mean, I guess doing two sets of squats a week probably will allow me to still put in 30-40 miles.. we'll see. Right now is a good time to start actually since my foot is hurting from the marathon and I'm gonna be on the stationary bike/elliptical for a bit. I'll give the workout in the Bill Starr thread a whirl, I guess.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: allies
1) yeah I got this locked up since my mom teaches health and nutrition and does work with athletes and stuff doing executive physicals and all that jazz. I got my BMR tested and it was like 2300 cal/day... so I need to eat a LOT to have a net positive, especially considering I'll be running 30-40 miles a week and walking another 10-20 miles a week (classes, boo)

Running burns a ton of calories, so you'll need to eat like it's your job. If you're serious about bulking up and aren't lactose intolerant, I'd really suggest giving GOMAD a try for a few months as it'll be a no nonsense way to ensure you're eating enough. It's also cheap and easy to obtain and you can build up to it by just drinking a glass of milk with every meal, then two glasses, and so on.

Originally posted by: allies
2) So doing speedwork (400s on 65s, 800s on 220s) won't do much to get my legs?

Oh, speedwork is certainly great for your legs, but the effects are quite different than those from squats. It's important to understand that the body adapts exactly and specifically to the stimulus you present it with. The types of adaptations needed for running those distances are primarily increased cardiovascular and muscular endurance as well as stamina. On the other hand, the adaptations needed for handling a heavy weight while squatting will include various CNS changes (to be able to recruit more muscle fibers, balance the weight, etc) as well as an increase in the cross sectional area of a muscle (ie, increased mass) as a bigger muscle can lift more weight. There are also vast differences in the energy systems (metabolic pathways) involved in running vs. lifting, the hormonal response, the stress on tissue & bone and so on. For more info, check out the "What is Fitness?" article in the Crossfit Journal.

Originally posted by: allies
I mean, I guess doing two sets of squats a week probably will allow me to still put in 30-40 miles.. we'll see.

If you've never squatted before, I wouldn't suggest doing much running at all the first few weeks. For one thing, your legs will probably be very sore. Moreover, your body and especially the CNS will need time to adapt to the stress of heavy squatting. This requires lots of rest (and lots of food) and will be hampered by lots of running. If you don't get sufficient rest and food, your progress on both the weight gain front and the running front will be slowed. As I said, weight gain is going to somewhat conflict with your goals, so you have to decide if it's really worth it.

Originally posted by: allies
I'll give the workout in the Bill Starr thread a whirl, I guess.

I'd highly recommend using Starting Strength or Stronglifts 5x5 as your first routine. They are based around Bill Starr's principals but are much better organized and designed specifically for the novice. The Starting Strength book is of particular value since it also does an exceptional job of teaching each lift - when squatting and deadlifting heavy weights, proper form is NOT optional and it's worth spending the $30 and few hours to learn how to do it right.

 

[allies]

birkis, once again thanks for the tips.

I guess getting to the arbitrary weight is silly; especially since I'm a runner by design, not weightlifter. I think more appropriately 165 should be the cap that I don't exceed because I don't want to be carrying more weight than that, regardless of the fact that I'm only doing low mileage until winter.

Looking more into Starting Strength and the Stronglifts routines.