Trying to bulk up.. Here's my plan so far.. Or start of one. Need help.

[TechBoyJK]

Hi Guys,

I just wrapped up a 3 month weight loss routine where I did light/moderate maintenance lifting and mostly cardio. I dropped from about 175 to almost 150. I'm getting lots of comments/compliments on it. I need to change up the routine, and would like to bulk up. I've already started focusing my time in the gym on weights, but it's just been kind of spontaneous "oh, I'll do that now!" until I'm tired. Now that I'm pretty much ready to take this head on, I want to formulate a specific set of routines.

First off.. Diet. I think I have a pretty good diet for this. Not perfect, but I don't have the discipline nor money right now for much more, but I'm going to keep looking into what I can do better. Here's an outline of it.

I have a protein shake first thing when I get into work at 8am. I wake up around 7am, do a short stretch (lightly), and then have a multivitamin with a glass of water before I take off. I might actually start drinking carnation instant breakfasts instead of water. I'll use skim milk. I love IB's and they help stem my appetite until around noon. I eat 1 or 2 sandwiches at work throughout the day, along with 1 or 2 zero calorie powerades. I also drink several glasses of water. I'll eat a banana or two at work, OR have some kind of fruit/veggie medley drink.

I'm going to try Muscletech's Nuerocore as a routine booster. I was going to try Jack3D but people seem to like neurocore more based on reviews and comments. I'm going to order the nuerocore when I get paid. Until then, I'll just go without. I get off work at 5pm and am at the gym by 6. So I'm probably going to bring the stuff to work, and have a glass right before I leave.

After the gym, I'll go home, and have another protein shake and some kind of meal. Maybe just a pb&j with a glass of milk, or something else. This isn't consistent (eating us, but what I eat) but I try and keep what I eat in line with a good diet. After that, I'll try not to eat anything else, unless it's a good idea to have another protein shake before bed? Each shake has about 30grams of protein.

Comments about diet are appreciated.

Now to the lifting routine. I can't do much in the way of squats or anything that's going to stress my groin. I had a bad inguinal hernia about 5 years ago so I basically need to avoid stressing that area. I can do light resistance, but squatting or dead lifts to build strength are out of the question. I'm also going to try to avoid free weights except for dumbells and barbells for biceps/triceps. I feel safer using a machine, I don't need a spotter, etc. My buddy is a personal trainer and he said he'll start helping me on form with free weights, but until I have that worked out, it's machines/pulleys only.

In regards to legs, I don't need strength training for them. I might hop on the machines to work the muscles out, but my legs are strong enough. I was a very committed speed skater growing up and frankly, my legs are huge compared to the rest of me. I'm not interested in making them any bigger. I give them enough of a workout from running. So this is all about
upper body.

What I was thinking was two routines.. That I alternate every other day. It may result in different routines on different days of the week (for instance.. if I have to skip a day at the gym), but I can just do them round robin. I'm guessing each routine should focus on major lifts first.. Then when finished do some targeted lifts. For instance, a lat pulldown uses biceps and lower back.. I should do that before doing bicep curls since if I exhaust on the curls first, I won't get much out of the pulldown. I've included some of the relevant pulley and machine weight systems I can use. I'm going to use these first, then go to the dumbells after. I figure I can stick to the same major lifts, and maybe alternate the dumbell routines since there's so many different variations.

Here's the set of exercises I have picked out that I can do at the gym.

Pully-based

Triceps Pulldown
-Triceps

Dual Pulley Pulldown (seperate grib per pulley)
-biceps, lower back (lat dorsi)

Lat PullDown (single pulley, one bar)
-biceps, lower back (lat dorsi)

Dual Pulley Row (seperate grip per pulley)
-Posterior Deltoid, Trapezius, Rhomboids, Lat Dorsi

Low Row (single pulley, one grip)
-Posterior Deltoid, Trapezius, Rhomboids, Lat Dorsi


Machine-based

Fly
-Pectoralis Major, Anterior Deltoids

Shoulder Press
-Anterior Deltoids, Triceps

Torso Rotator
-abs, obliques

Back Extension
-Glutes, erector spinae

Chest Press
-Anterior Deltoids, Triceps, Pectoralis Major

Dumbell

-Standard bicep curl
-Hammer Curl
-Over head one arm tricep extension
-Shoulder Lateral Raise
-Shoulder Shrug
-Palm up wrist curl
-palm down wrist curl


Question.

1. How should I group these exercises?

Routine A

Routine B

2. Should I do

Day 1 - Routine A + cardio
Day 2 - Routine B + cardio
Day 3 - cardio
Day 4 - Routine A + cardio
Day 5 - Routine B + cardio
Day 6 - cardio
Day 7 - rest

or

Day 1 - Routine A + cardio
Day 2 - Cardio
Day 3 - Routine B + cardio
Day 4 - Cardio
Day 5 - Routine A + cardio
Day 6 - rest
Day 7 - Routine B + cardio

Also, it doesn't have to be set within a 7 day period. I can just alternate A/B keeping in mind what I did the last time. Thoughts?

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

Personally, I would advise using free weights whenever possible. I think your proposed routine relies too heavily on machines. Form isn't that hard to work out when you're starting out, and as long as you don't overload the weight too much too soon you should be relatively safe from injury.

Also, and with the concession that I am absolutely ignorant of the severity of your past hernia injury and any possible instructions/restrictions from your physician, my initial reaction to your disqualification of squats and deadlifts was to think that 5 years ago was long enough that you should be able to accomplish those lifts now, even if starting incredibly light and focusing intently on proper form. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually therapeutic to do those lifts.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Personally, I would advise using free weights whenever possible. I think your proposed routine relies too heavily on machines. Form isn't that hard to work out when you're starting out, and as long as you don't overload the weight too much too soon you should be relatively safe from injury.

Also, and with the concession that I am absolutely ignorant of the severity of your past hernia injury and any possible instructions/restrictions from your physician, my initial reaction to your disqualification of squats and deadlifts was to think that 5 years ago was long enough that you should be able to accomplish those lifts now, even if starting incredibly light and focusing intently on proper form. I wouldn't be surprised if it was actually therapeutic to do those lifts.

The hole from the hernia was too big to be pulled completely together, and I have a piece of plastic the size of a credit card filling the gap. Like I said, I have a friend who is a PT who is going to work with me on form, something I'm ignorant of, and once I get the hang of it, I'll start using more free weights. I'll simply replace the machine exercises with their free weight counterpart.

At this point I'm more concerned with the exercise.. I want to get my routine down now so I can get it out of the way.

 

[IHateMyJob2004]

My multivitamins say to take with food. You might want to read your label to check what the proper way is to take them.

AS for pre-wrokout drinks which I think you are interested in, you might want to read up on studies about what amount of each thing (4 of them, one being caffiene) is needed to get a benefit. Most of the over the counter mises are crap, I think Jack3D is the best option but the best way to actually do it is to buy the ingredients seperatly and make your own mix. All over the counter pre-workout energy boosters are not that good. I only use L-Argeinine right now but atleast I get what studies say I should get for a daily dose.

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Do Pre-workout Supplements Work?
Submitted by SixPackStriving on February 9, 2011 – 12:26 pm5 Comments
Well, I guess that really depends on what your definition of works is.

Pre-workout supplements, specifically all the powders on the market, are designed to enhance your workouts by giving you energy and stamina to push through the toughest workouts. And if you believe the claims in magazines and on the Internet you will be able to increase strength, cardio, size, and fat-loss!

So, the following will breakdown the primary ingredients of some of the more popular pre-workout supplements on the market.

1 M.R. – Serving Size: 8 grams, the majority of which is a Proprietary Blend (L-AAKG, Beta Alanine, L-Taurine, L-Tyrosine, NAC, Creatine Monohydrate, Caffeine Anhydrous, Guarana (30%), Yerba Mate (25%), 1,3-Dimethylamylamine, Schizandra A (9%), Niacin, Grape Seed Extract, Vitamin C (Ascorbic Acid), Red Wine Extract. 5,558 mg) Includes 300 mg of caffeine

Black Powder – Serving Size: 20 grams, 11 grams of carbs and the remaining 9 grams in 6 different proprietary blends (2 grams of creatine and other; 3 grams of l-arginine; less than a gram of beta alanine; 200 mgs of caffeine; other stuff)

Jack3d – Serving Size: 5.5 grams, of which 4.1 grams is a proprietary blend (Arginine Alpha-Ketoglutarate, Creatine Monohydrate, Beta Alanine, Caffeine, 1,3-Dimethylamylamine (Geranium [Stem]), Schizandrol A)

Notice how none of these top brands tell you actual dosage? (Black Powder gives you dosage for each blend, but not the actual breakdown) Many are of the opinion that without the dosages listed the ingredients listed are irrelevant. What evidence do you have that you are receiving adequate amounts? What are the adequate amounts? Most research shows that you need much more of the primary ingredients to get any benefit.

So, looking at the ingredients above, L-arginine, Beta Alanine, Creatine, and Caffeine are in all formulas. (L-AAKG in 1 M.R. is L-arginine) FYI, notice how Nitric Oxide is not listed anywhere? That is because Nitric Oxide is the result of taking L-arginine.

Let’s take a closer look at these ingredients:

L-arginine – as stated above, L-Arginine is a precursor for the production of nitric oxide. When you workout, your body creates nitric oxide. By supplementing with L-arginine your body can generate more nitric oxide. Nitric oxide production results in vein vasodilation, which allows more nutrients and blood to get to your muscles. An effective dose of L-arginine is at least 3 grams, though I have seen other research that says 6 to 12 grams is optimal.

Creatine – I believe the debates are over. Creatine will benefit you by increasing exercise performance. It is most beneficial for those that are participating in resistance training exercises, but the benefits are less clear for endurance athletes. Typical maintenance dose is 3 grams and to get the most benefit, should include some type of carbohydrate transporter. Some argue that it is better ingested post workout, as muscles are primed to absorb new nutrients.

Beta Alanine – in layman’s terms, Beta Alanine helps fight fatigue during high intensity exercise. Time of ingestion is not critical though and total suggested daily intake is 3.2 to 6.4 grams. One of the side effects is a tingling sensation on the skin. It is not harmful.

Caffeine – This is the primary stimulant in most pre-workout formulas. 1 M.R. has 300 mg, Black Powder 200 mg and Jack3d is estimated at 100 mg. A single cup of coffee typically has 50 to 100 mg of caffeine. Plenty of studies have been done to show that caffeine is a performance enhancer and has some fat burning benefits. It is what keeps you focused during your workouts and decreases your perception of how hard you are working out.

So to recap, all of these primary ingredients have research to support their effectiveness in improving workout performance. However, proper dosage is:

•L-arginine – at least 3 grams but more effective at the 6 to 12 grams level
•Creatine – 3 grams and pre-workout is not necessarily the best time to take
•Beta Alanine – 3.2 to 6.4 grams daily. 1.2 grams pre-workout
•Caffeine – 100 to 200 mg
1 M.R. total serving size – 8 grams of which 5.5 grams is a proprietary blend. Even if their ratios are perfect, 5.5 grams is not large enough to meet the minimum recommended dosages above and it includes 300 mg of caffeine. No wonder people feel pumped with this stuff!

Black Powder total serving size 20 grams, of which 11 grams is carbs, leaving 9 grams. 2 grams of a creatine blend, 3 grams of an arginine blend, and less than a gram of beta alanine plus 200 mg of caffeine. For those working out first thing in the morning, on an empty stomach, this might be the best combination of ingredients.

Jack3d total serving size – 5 grams of which 4.1 grams are proprietary blend. Like 1 M.R. not a large enough to get the minimum recommended dosage of the ingredients they are including. This may be why some people start taking multiple scoops of the stuff.

So, do pre-workout supplements work? The science behind the ingredients seems to say they do; however, I have yet to come across a product that contains all the proper dosages. That is why I create my own by purchasing the ingredients separately and mixing with water. May not be as tasty as some of the pre-mixed stuff, but I know exactly what I am putting in my body and when.

Be Great!

 

[TechBoyJK]

Cool... thanks! I'm going to read up on all that.

Anybody have any comments on which exercises I should do for each routine?

I'm reading some stuff that says I should do it all in one day, then rest for a day or two. Other stuff says I should alternate the exercises.. like triceps one day, biceps the next. then rest a day.

 

[tedrodai]

I used to have a nice spreadsheet with tons of pre-assembled workouts I could pull out for specific bodybuilding type goals, but it looks like I've deleted it. That woulda been perfect to answer your question about a specific routine, but eh well.

Anywho, I'm at work and time is limited, but here's the basics for you. If I have time to look up some good articles later, I'll post them. It's amazing how many crap workout articles you have to sort through sometimes to find stuff that's good for beginners.

1)

Your 2 routines will be along these lines:
A - pecs + triceps + delts
B - back + biceps + forearms
I'd probably throw the abs in with A or the cardio days. (or you can switch up which is A and which is B...whatever you prefer)

You're correct that you should do the bigger compound exercises first, then end with any isolation you want to do. The compound exercises are much better than the isolation exercises for your bulking goal, so focus on them. Then, if you have extra time and energy/strength in a particular muscle, do some isolation. Form is just as important for the machines--even though your movement is more restricted and there's more safety measures in place, you can still do it wrong. Make sure the movements are smooth and under control, while still making you work for it.

Given those specific exercises, I'd pick these as your major exercises:
A - chest press, shoulder press, flies
B - 1 of the 2 lat pulldowns, 1 of the rows, back extensions (can switch up the types of pulldowns and rows for different days if you like)

2)

either schedule is good -- it's just personal preference. The goal is to give the muscles you've worked out time to heal up before you hit them again. This is valid for abs and whatever you're working during cardio too--if your legs are really sore, let em rest.

 

[Wyndru]

I'm not really too knowledgeable in the area of bulking, but is that much cardio recommended? I thought during bulking stage you wanted to consume more calories then you use? Wouldn't too much cardio defeat this goal by burning too much?

 

[TechBoyJK]

I'm not really too knowledgeable in the area of bulking, but is that much cardio recommended? I thought during bulking stage you wanted to consume more calories then you use? Wouldn't too much cardio defeat this goal by burning too much?

Good question. I burn maybe 300-500 calories doing cardio. AFAIK as long as I give my muscles the protein they need to rebuild and grow, I can still run a 'healthy' caloric deficit and build mass. I just need to make sure I put lifting first that way I don't waste energy I could have used for lifting for my cardio. Before I lift, I'll run for 5-7 minutes at a light pace on the treadmill just to get my blood flowing, but that's about it.

 

[Cerpin Taxt]

AFAIK as long as I give my muscles the protein they need to rebuild and grow, I can still run a 'healthy' caloric deficit and build mass.

To the best of my knowledge this is false. It's a simple matter of calories in vs. calories out. You cannot gain weight in a caloric deficit without violating some fundamental laws of thermodynamics.

Your body responds to caloric deficits with catabolism -- be it from muscle tissue or adipose tissue. Stressing your muscles might "encourage" your body to keep them around and defer to burning fat, but in general stored body fat is like the last source of energy your body draws upon to supplement the deficit.

 

[tedrodai]

To the best of my knowledge this is false. It's a simple matter of calories in vs. calories out. You cannot gain weight in a caloric deficit without violating some fundamental laws of thermodynamics.

I'd assume by "bulk up" and "build mass" he means only muscle as opposed to outright "gain weight". I'm not here to argue over the finer points, but technically you can indeed add muscle mass while dropping enough fat mass to lose weight, at least over certain periods of time. Of course, if you want to gain muscle with any level of surety, you definitely want to be eating a caloric surplus, so you'll add fat as well that you'll want to cut later.

Overall, I've been in a small caloric deficit for the past 20 weeks--average of 325ish calories/day. To be more specific though, I've had a pretty intense cardio and weight routine, and about 2 days out of each week I'd consume a caloric surplus to help recover from my weights. I've been trying to get back into shape, so my goals have been to (1) drop fat and make gains in (2) strength and (3) endurance all at once. If there's any reliability to my body fat % calculations (using calipers), I've gone from around 198lbs & 18% to 185 & 11%. So while I'm obviously dropping weight overall, those estimates give me a gain of around 2lbs of lean body mass.

I've been able to make gains towards all 3 of my goals, and I'm happy with my progress so far, but it's fairly slow compared to focussing on bulking or cutting. I have no intention of trying to determine if I can keep it up. Now that my level of fitness is somewhat decent again, I'm looking forward to doing some actual bulking routines. I'll probably stay with my deficit for a couple more months just to see how close I can get to showing my abs .

 

[TechBoyJK]

I'd assume by "bulk up" and "build mass" he means only muscle as opposed to outright "gain weight". I'm not here to argue over the finer points, but technically you can indeed add muscle mass while dropping enough fat mass to lose weight, at least over certain periods of time. Of course, if you want to gain muscle with any level of surety, you definitely want to be eating a caloric surplus, so you'll add fat as well that you'll want to cut later.

Overall, I've been in a small caloric deficit for the past 20 weeks--average of 325ish calories/day. To be more specific though, I've had a pretty intense cardio and weight routine, and about 2 days out of each week I'd consume a caloric surplus to help recover from my weights. I've been trying to get back into shape, so my goals have been to (1) drop fat and make gains in (2) strength and (3) endurance all at once. If there's any reliability to my body fat % calculations (using calipers), I've gone from around 198lbs & 18% to 185 & 11%. So while I'm obviously dropping weight overall, those estimates give me a gain of around 2lbs of lean body mass.

I've been able to make gains towards all 3 of my goals, and I'm happy with my progress so far, but it's fairly slow compared to focussing on bulking or cutting. I have no intention of trying to determine if I can keep it up. Now that my level of fitness is somewhat decent again, I'm looking forward to doing some actual bulking routines. I'll probably stay with my deficit for a couple more months just to see how close I can get to showing my abs .

Yes... only muscle. I've certainly scaled back on my cardio. I'm honestly only burning about 250-500 calories when I do it. But I'm also eating a ton and drinking about 4-5 protein shakes per day. At this point, I honestly think I'm still taking in more than I'm burning.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Here's what I have so far. I'm doing these.. alternating days.

Day 1 - A
Day 2 - B
Day 3 - A
Day 4 - B
etc
etc
full rest on day 7

Routine A

Lat PullDown (single pulley, one bar)
-biceps, lower back (lat dorsi)

Torso Rotator
-abs, obliques

Low Row (single pulley, one grip)
-Posterior Deltoid, Trapezius, Rhomboids, Lat Dorsi

-Standard bicep curl (dumbell)

-Bicep Hammer Curl (dumbell)

-Shoulder Shrug

B

Chest Press
-Anterior Deltoids, Triceps, Pectoralis Major

Shoulder Press
-Anterior Deltoids, Triceps

Fly
-Pectoralis Major, Anterior Deltoids

Triceps Pushdown (pully/rope)
-Triceps

-Shoulder Lateral Raise (dumbbell)

-Shoulder Front Raise (dumbbell)




Thoughts? Any other exercises?

 

[alkemyst]

Are you limited due to your hernia? I'd get some advice on what your personal trainer buddy thinks is best for you.

IMHO in a bulking program what you are doing is 3 things: eating, heavy lifts and sleeping.

Eating usually requires supplements if you have any kind of busy life. Figure on 6 meals a day.

Your routine isn't terrible, but not best for bulking...the Day B flies and triceps pushdowns would be things I'd replace with just dips and go more intense on the chest and shoulder presses.

Without training you legs though you are going to be limited on 'bulk'. I haven't seen many that built a ton of size until they started doing heavy leg work like squats (leg presses if they intimidate you, but no where as good) and deadlifts.

I'd work my way up to pullups with weight around your waist once you get strong enough with lat pulldowns.

However all that said, if you stick with it almost anything is going to work well.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Are you limited due to your hernia? I'd get some advice on what your personal trainer buddy thinks is best for you.

IMHO in a bulking program what you are doing is 3 things: eating, heavy lifts and sleeping.

Eating usually requires supplements if you have any kind of busy life. Figure on 6 meals a day.

Your routine isn't terrible, but not best for bulking...the Day B flies and triceps pushdowns would be things I'd replace with just dips and go more intense on the chest and shoulder presses.

Without training you legs though you are going to be limited on 'bulk'. I haven't seen many that built a ton of size until they started doing heavy leg work like squats (leg presses if they intimidate you, but no where as good) and deadlifts.

I'd work my way up to pullups with weight around your waist once you get strong enough with lat pulldowns.

However all that said, if you stick with it almost anything is going to work well.

Thanks!

About the legs, honestly, they're already huge. I don't want them to be any bigger, at all.

When I was younger, I was actually one of the top ranked inline speed skaters in the country, and I was doing this all when I was maturing and going through growth spurts so my legs got massive. Since all my athletics were lower body, I always had a kind of weird shape to me. I still have to buy bigger jeans around the waist just so my legs will fit in. My legs aren't as big as they used to be, but I don't want any more mass there.

My pt friend gets back in town on Monday, and he's going to go over everything with me.

I've tried squats before, about a year ago with him, and I could just feel too much stress in the hernia area long before I was doing any significant weight for gaining mass. The other exercises I seem to be able to get away with more weight without it bothering me.

 

[alkemyst]

Thanks!

About the legs, honestly, they're already huge. I don't want them to be any bigger, at all.

When I was younger, I was actually one of the top ranked inline speed skaters in the country, and I was going this all when I was maturing so my legs got massive. I have to buy bigger jeans around the waist still just so my legs will fit in.

My pt friend gets back in town on Monday, and he's going to go over everything with me.

It's about triggering your body to grow. It's going to be hard to bulk up without lower body work...

 

[TechBoyJK]

It's about triggering your body to grow. It's going to be hard to bulk up without lower body work...

What about high intensity running? I run several days a week. I'm stressing my legs, just not for heavy weights. I'm doing a shorter, faster paced run too. The days I do run now (since I'm trying to gain) im doing at most 2-3 miles, but I'm doing it at a 6-7 minute mile pace. For the last half mile, I'm going up to a sub 5 minute mile pace (speed of 12.5mph) at a slight incline.

 

[alkemyst]

What about high intensity running? I run several days a week. I'm stressing my legs, just not for heavy weights. I'm doing a shorter, faster paced run too. The days I do run now (since I'm trying to gain) im doing at most 2-3 miles, but I'm doing it at a 6-7 minute mile pace. For the last half mile, I'm going up to a sub 5 minute mile pace (speed of 12.5mph) at a slight incline.

You will 'tone' at best as I like to say. You will get more cut and your muscles will fill some...you will not be bulking.

Most people that think they 'bulked' never really did.

 

[TechBoyJK]

Is one day rest enough?

Meaning.. Should I routine A on Monday.. Routine B on Tuesday, then routine A on wednesday, routine B on thursday, etc. etc. ? I'll usually take sunday or saturday off.

I tried to split the routines so that only certain muscle groups were getting used... that way muscles from routine A would be resting on the day I do routine B.

Or should I do Routine A, Routine B, rest. Routine A, Routine B, rest. ???

I feel pretty recovered doing A/B/A/B/A/B/Rest - repeat

 

[alkemyst]

for your plan 1 day of rest is probably enough, it's more a 'toning'/maintenance plan though.

You need to figure out how to get some heavy compound lifts in and then do one on, one off.

 

[TechAZ]

To the best of my knowledge, and from the mouths of many personal trainers, you NEED to lift heavy with legs to gain mass. You can make little gains over a long period of time, but your body's natural growth hormone and testosterone are located in your legs. If you don't rip those muscles up, those key hormones that are vital to muscle growth for your entire body will not be released into the bloodstream.