Truth, reason, and 7800 GTX 512 SLI

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Ronin
How does honesty come into play here? They're charging a margin for the cards. Basic demand principles (you know..Econ 101?). There's no ethical debate here, it's basic capitalistic motive, and if you were in their position, you'd do the same, I'd venture.

How does honesty come into play? You question honesty in business? Remind me not to do any business with you. Call it what it is bro, simple GREED! I've never had 'Econ 101' and don't need it if honesty isnt taught.

Price-gouging on basic necessities when people have nowhere else to go is dishonest and unethical. Charging what the market will bear for luxury items is basic economics.

Would I do the same? NO! Reason? Because not only would I sell out (just like they do) the customers would remember my name, and thank me for not ripping them off. Then you would have the ever so important "return buyers". It's not always about money you know. When I do business, I want to know I can trust that company that they won't rip me off. Something these e-tailors don't seem to get.

An admirable position, but that can be tough to stick to when you know you can raise prices 20% or more on an item and still sell all of the ones you have in stock (which could be several thousand dollars of pure profit).

Ronin guy, NEWS FLASH!!!! MSRP IS MAKING A PROFFIT! Do you have to triple the amount of proffits to stay in business? NO! So your reasoning with charging an arm and a leg doesn't hold water. The one's who have no concept of business are the one's who have no concept of HONESTY!!!!

News flash: stores are in business to make money. When demand outstrips supply, raising prices makes more money. If you're only buying the cards from the OEMs at, say, $600 with a $650 MSRP, selling them at $750 means you are making three times as much money on each sale. In a business with pretty small margins, that kind of opportunity can be hard to pass up.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Making money is one thing, making an honest buck is another. It seems as though 'it's ok' to not be strait forward these days in business. Be as cutthroat as possible , making as much proffit as 'the market' will allow, all at the expence of consumers.




The Surgeon

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: Crescent13
I'm waiting for DX10

I just want a descent $500 video card that can run Unreal 3 engine at 1920x1080 on 4x AA and 16x AF with and or at least 2x AA with none-stop 60fps and HDR+AA. Then the money should be well spent. Until then spending isn't neccesary.

 

[jam3]

I don't think I see the point of this thread, you don't have to justify anything to us. Go spend your money as you see fit. Some people will think it's a foolish waste, others will see it as a wise investment in the future. Why should you care either way? More to the point, why even bother telling us?

1) Noone is talking about this setup and those that even mention it in other post do nothing but talk about the price.

2) I would like to see those who I know are around here talk about some things like water cooling. which motherboard/PSU is best for these dual slot beasts if your going to run them in SLI.

3) Basically I am trying to get those folks around here to come out of the closet admit they want want these suckers in SLI, and launch a pre-emptive strike against all the "cost" flamers who I am sure are going to show up. By the time I make the purchase (in a month or two) I want to be armed with good information and these forums are a good place to get it if you can get past all the trolls.

4) I'd rather have discussion of ultra high-end systems here than go over to HardOCP, please god don't make do that.

 

[Ronin]

Tell me, do you have any idea what the cards cost to make? I do. I know what the profit margins are. What you consider an arm and a leg doesn't necessarily correlate to other people's perception.

Believe what you will. You don't have to pay the premium. You can wait until the prices drop, and that's ok, but that doesn't make it wrong to charge a premium for a card in demand, plain and simple.

Like I said, it's apparent you have very little understanding of how business works, and it's probably better that you drop the discussion. There is nothing wrong with a company charging a premium (within reason) for a high demand product, period.

 

[gi0rgi0]

I think its cool to go out and get a very expensive card. Or 2 for sli. I mean why not if thats what your into. But what I was saying is that
I like to play games and for me the ps2 and my 7800gt driven pc is phvcking fun to play. A phvcking riot actually. So I guess im not
really needing to go spending a G. Maybe finally you'll be satisified and content that you can play with your uber res that you think only
makes games great. I mean Phvck! I play katamari damacy and the graphics are kinda cheesy but its colorful and the game is wacky
and most of all challenging and FUN. And just got Guitar Hero. Check that out guy. You'd probably ignore Q4 or fear(kinda looks like HL2) games.
And wait thats on a PoS2 . OMG, you cant possibly spend only $150 and get some enjoyment!!!

Oh yeah, im also able to stepup to the 512 for $250 which I could definitely afford but ill probably just get another gt for a $50 more and have
sli

 

[Steelski]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: remagavon
$1400 on video cards now might not be the best idea considering DX10 is coming within the next 10 months or so, but it's your money. $700 is an outrageous price for a non professional graphics card, but then so are $1200 CPUs. There is a niche market for those things and it's fine that you fit into that niche. I do think it's slightly humorous you're going to be powering a $450 (or less, depending on deals) LCD with $1400 in graphics hardware.

A. DX 10 wont matter for a long time
B. First generation hardware will most likely choke on it anyways.

Just like the 9700 pro did.......
I think that it would be pretty good. After all I bet that ATI knew a long time ago what the specs would be......being close to MS at the moment.....but then again..its a whole orgy with ATI at the moment. INTEL, MS, Nintendo(who cares about them though)

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon
Making money is one thing, making an honest buck is another. It seems as though 'it's ok' to not be strait forward these days in business. Be as cutthroat as possible , making as much proffit as 'the market' will allow, all at the expence of consumers.

The Surgeon

Your off the mark. It's 100% honest to ask any price you want for a product or service. As long as the consumer can say no, it's honest. When the consumer can't say no, and you over charge, thats stealing. If a company wants to charge 10 times MSRP for a video card thats there right, and you have the right not to buy it. This is what makes a free market work.

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Ronin
Tell me, do you have any idea what the cards cost to make? I do. I know what the profit margins are. What you consider an arm and a leg doesn't necessarily correlate to other people's perception.

Believe what you will. You don't have to pay the premium. You can wait until the prices drop, and that's ok, but that doesn't make it wrong to charge a premium for a card in demand, plain and simple.

Like I said, it's apparent you have very little understanding of how business works, and it's probably better that you drop the discussion. There is nothing wrong with a company charging a premium (within reason) for a high demand product, period.

Yes, your right. I'll drop the discussion WITH DISHONEST BUSINESS PEOPLE!

The Surgeon :-D

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: Ronin

Originally posted by: remagavon

Originally posted by: Ronin
DX10 will make it's appearance in Vista, so for all intents and purposes, sometime next year (provided MS sticks to their timeline).

3. I've played games on just about anything you can think of, and for the money, a solid LCD will blow away a CRT, no matter which one (if you talk about price comparisons).

Previous to my 2405FPWs (and before that, a 2005FPW), I was using a Dell P1130, which was an excellent monitor, imo. The 2405FPW, as well as the 2005FPW, are head and shoulders above it.

That's an opinion, you can't state that as a fact. For you it might be fine, for others it might not. That's a terrible argument to make; things like displays and speakers are extremely subjective.

Sorry, just about every review site that has done one on the 2405 would disagree with you. When a conglomeration of people (especially those that actually own the monitor) provide comparisons, it moves away from the opinion category, and it becomes just plain FACT. You lose, bud.

I agree. I also have a 2405FPW and would *NEVER* go back to a CRT, even if it was teh best one in existance. I have reached the conclusion that the people still heralding CRTs simply do not have money and are desperately trying to feel better about their pathetic monitors.

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: StevenG
One key area where LCDs fall short of top-of-the-line CRTs is refresh rates.

Wow. Just wow. Are you retarded? A CRT is like a flurorescent light bulb whereas an LCD is like an incandescent bulb. LCDs *NEVER* flicker. At 60hz they have a more stable image than a 120hz image on a CRT. The backlight *NEVER* turns off or flickers, and there are no cathode rays being fired at a screen 60, 75, or whatever rate per second.

The CRT fanatics are so uninformed and they have obviously never gamed on an LCD for any length of time using good hardware. :thumbsdown:

Why are none of the major manufacturers still making CRTs going forward? Are they all disillusioned? Do they want to just throw out the millions they put into inventing the CRT? You guys need to wake up.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Ronin
How does honesty come into play here? They're charging a margin for the cards. Basic demand principles (you know..Econ 101?). There's no ethical debate here, it's basic capitalistic motive, and if you were in their position, you'd do the same, I'd venture.

How does honesty come into play? You question honesty in business? Remind me not to do any business with you. Call it what it is bro, simple GREED! I've never had 'Econ 101' and don't need it if honesty isnt taught.

Price-gouging on basic necessities when people have nowhere else to go is dishonest and unethical. Charging what the market will bear for luxury items is basic economics.

You summed it up perfectly Mathias! If you don't like the prices, then buy a cheaper card. This is a video card we are talking about, not a basic necessity for life! If it wasn't abused in 95% of cases, I'd say "QFT" .

Would I do the same? NO! Reason? Because not only would I sell out (just like they do) the customers would remember my name, and thank me for not ripping them off. Then you would have the ever so important "return buyers". It's not always about money you know. When I do business, I want to know I can trust that company that they won't rip me off. Something these e-tailors don't seem to get.

An admirable position, but that can be tough to stick to when you know you can raise prices 20% or more on an item and still sell all of the ones you have in stock (which could be several thousand dollars of pure profit).

Furthermore, with both ATI and Nvidia charging exorbitant prices on their video cards, there's nowhere else to turn. If you want a top of the line gaming video card, you're going to have to buy one of those brands, so you will either be a return buyer despite your principles, or you will be flip-flopping from one brand to the next to spite the last one who ripped you off...

Ronin guy, NEWS FLASH!!!! MSRP IS MAKING A PROFFIT! Do you have to triple the amount of proffits to stay in business? NO! So your reasoning with charging an arm and a leg doesn't hold water. The one's who have no concept of business are the one's who have no concept of HONESTY!!!!

News flash: stores are in business to make money. When demand outstrips supply, raising prices makes more money. If you're only buying the cards from the OEMs at, say, $600 with a $650 MSRP, selling them at $750 means you are making three times as much money on each sale. In a business with pretty small margins, that kind of opportunity can be hard to pass up.

[/quote]

Unfortunately, this is how Capitalist society works. You charge whatever people are willing to pay!

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Originally posted by: Crescent13
I'm waiting for DX10

I just want a descent $500 video card that can run Unreal 3 engine at 1920x1080 on 4x AA and 16x AF with and or at least 2x AA with none-stop 60fps and HDR+AA. Then the money should be well spent. Until then spending isn't neccesary.

I agree. DX10 games are at least 2 years away, which will be well beyond the useful life of any graphics setup purchased today, including SLI.

 

[jiffylube1024]

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Originally posted by: Crescent13
I'm waiting for DX10

I just want a descent $500 video card that can run Unreal 3 engine at 1920x1080 on 4x AA and 16x AF with and or at least 2x AA with none-stop 60fps and HDR+AA. Then the money should be well spent. Until then spending isn't neccesary.

And I want a pet dinosaur. I don't think either of us will get our wishes for the next little while at least...

 

[Matthias99]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: Matthias99

Originally posted by: PC Surgeon

Originally posted by: Ronin
How does honesty come into play here? They're charging a margin for the cards. Basic demand principles (you know..Econ 101?). There's no ethical debate here, it's basic capitalistic motive, and if you were in their position, you'd do the same, I'd venture.

How does honesty come into play? You question honesty in business? Remind me not to do any business with you. Call it what it is bro, simple GREED! I've never had 'Econ 101' and don't need it if honesty isnt taught.

Price-gouging on basic necessities when people have nowhere else to go is dishonest and unethical. Charging what the market will bear for luxury items is basic economics.

You summed it up perfectly Mathias!

Again, two 't's.

Would I do the same? NO! Reason? Because not only would I sell out (just like they do) the customers would remember my name, and thank me for not ripping them off. Then you would have the ever so important "return buyers". It's not always about money you know. When I do business, I want to know I can trust that company that they won't rip me off. Something these e-tailors don't seem to get.

An admirable position, but that can be tough to stick to when you know you can raise prices 20% or more on an item and still sell all of the ones you have in stock (which could be several thousand dollars of pure profit).

Furthermore, with both ATI and Nvidia charging exorbitant prices on their video cards, there's nowhere else to turn. If you want a top of the line gaming video card, you're going to have to buy one of those brands, so you will either be a return buyer despite your principles, or you will be flip-flopping from one brand to the next to spite the last one who ripped you off...

I was referring more to retailers choosing to charge more than MSRP for a high-demand product around launch time. High MSRPs in the first place are due to a number of factors. There's probably a little bit of implicit collusion (neither ATI nor NVIDIA *really* wants to get into a cutthroat pricing war), and NVIDIA probably feels (perhaps rightly, at the top end) that they can charge almost whatever they want right now.

Overclockers.com actually had an editorial on hardware prices yesterday. Sometimes they just rant nonsensically over there, but this one was pretty good.

IMO, though, price-gouging on luxury items is not unethical (and let's not kid ourselves here; any 3D graphics card is a luxury item in the grand scheme of things). It's certainly not what I would call "dishonest" -- "dishonest" selling IMO requires lying or cheating the customer in some way, like pulling a bait-and-switch or telling customers something is in stock when it is actually backordered. In a free market, an item is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it -- the "S" in "MSRP" is "Suggested", after all...

 

[StevenG]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: StevenG
One key area where LCDs fall short of top-of-the-line CRTs is refresh rates.

Wow. Just wow. Are you retarded? A CRT is like a flurorescent light bulb whereas an LCD is like an incandescent bulb. LCDs *NEVER* flicker. At 60hz they have a more stable image than a 120hz image on a CRT. The backlight *NEVER* turns off or flickers, and there are no cathode rays being fired at a screen 60, 75, or whatever rate per second.

The CRT fanatics are so uninformed and they have obviously never gamed on an LCD for any length of time using good hardware.

Nothing more pathetic than displaying righteous indignation on a topic you just don't understand.

I am not talking about flicker, retard. I am talking about online gaming and about how many times per second the scene on the monitor is updated to reflect the latest action in the game. The rate at which the scene is updated for the player is limited by the refresh rate. By your logic, a LCD at 10 Hz refresh would be superior to a CRT at 120 Hz. Sure you would "*NEVER* flicker" and have a "stable image" (whoopidee doo, good for you) but you would be utterly and completely owned in online gaming. The diffference between 60hz and 120 hz is more subtle, but there is a definite advantage to the player who is getting an updated scene every 8.3 ms (at 120 hz scene refresh) versus the player who is getting an updated scene every 16.7 ms (at 60 hz scene refresh). Besides the obvious point that you can react more quickly to the on-screen action when the updates are occuring more often, in many game engines the controller lag is directly tied to the refresh rate (by the design of the game engine). I will NEVER go back to 60hz refresh in games. It looks and feels downright choppy to me in comparison to 120 hz.

Get your facts straight before going on a rant, d!psh!t.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: Ronin

Originally posted by: remagavon

Originally posted by: Ronin
DX10 will make it's appearance in Vista, so for all intents and purposes, sometime next year (provided MS sticks to their timeline).

3. I've played games on just about anything you can think of, and for the money, a solid LCD will blow away a CRT, no matter which one (if you talk about price comparisons).

Previous to my 2405FPWs (and before that, a 2005FPW), I was using a Dell P1130, which was an excellent monitor, imo. The 2405FPW, as well as the 2005FPW, are head and shoulders above it.

That's an opinion, you can't state that as a fact. For you it might be fine, for others it might not. That's a terrible argument to make; things like displays and speakers are extremely subjective.

Sorry, just about every review site that has done one on the 2405 would disagree with you. When a conglomeration of people (especially those that actually own the monitor) provide comparisons, it moves away from the opinion category, and it becomes just plain FACT. You lose, bud.

I agree. I also have a 2405FPW and would *NEVER* go back to a CRT, even if it was teh best one in existance. I have reached the conclusion that the people still heralding CRTs simply do not have money and are desperately trying to feel better about their pathetic monitors.

ur pathetic, why are u flaming people who owns moniters for no reason? Is it because ur loving that 12ms ghosting shoving it up ur ass so hard?

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: StevenG
One key area where LCDs fall short of top-of-the-line CRTs is refresh rates.

Wow. Just wow. Are you retarded? A CRT is like a flurorescent light bulb whereas an LCD is like an incandescent bulb. LCDs *NEVER* flicker. At 60hz they have a more stable image than a 120hz image on a CRT. The backlight *NEVER* turns off or flickers, and there are no cathode rays being fired at a screen 60, 75, or whatever rate per second.

The CRT fanatics are so uninformed and they have obviously never gamed on an LCD for any length of time using good hardware. :thumbsdown:

Why are none of the major manufacturers still making CRTs going forward? Are they all disillusioned? Do they want to just throw out the millions they put into inventing the CRT? You guys need to wake up.

I run all my games at 1720x1290 @ 85hz on my g500 how come I never notice any flickering?

The reason why CRT is not being manufactuered much anymore is because of their weight, the cost of shipping is much higher than LCDs.

 

[gtx4u]

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Originally posted by: Crescent13
I'm waiting for DX10

I just want a descent $500 video card that can run Unreal 3 engine at 1920x1080 on 4x AA and 16x AF with and or at least 2x AA with none-stop 60fps and HDR+AA. Then the money should be well spent. Until then spending isn't neccesary.

And I want a pet dinosaur. I don't think either of us will get our wishes for the next little while at least...

careful what u wish for, it might bite ur penis off at night for snack.

 

[Cookie Monster]

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Originally posted by: jiffylube1024

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Originally posted by: Crescent13
I'm waiting for DX10

I just want a descent $500 video card that can run Unreal 3 engine at 1920x1080 on 4x AA and 16x AF with and or at least 2x AA with none-stop 60fps and HDR+AA. Then the money should be well spent. Until then spending isn't neccesary.

And I want a pet dinosaur. I don't think either of us will get our wishes for the next little while at least...

careful what u wish for, it might bite ur penis off at night for snack.

More like his car or something. We are talking about T-rexs arent we?

 

[drifter106]

Originally posted by: remagavon
$1400 on video cards now might not be the best idea considering DX10 is coming within the next 10 months or so, but it's your money. $700 is an outrageous price for a non professional graphics card, but then so are $1200 CPUs. There is a niche market for those things and it's fine that you fit into that niche. I do think it's slightly humorous you're going to be powering a $450 (or less, depending on deals) LCD with $1400 in graphics hardware.

yea, I agree on that one....I have a 2005 and limited to 1680 x 1050 (never use it) and have recently only paid attention to reviews that stay within that scope. Maybe he is going to utilize the extra card to enable all the eye candy options...still kinda of an overkill but, good luck to jam...enjoy!!!

 

[SickBeast]

Originally posted by: gtx4u

Originally posted by: SickBeast

Originally posted by: StevenG
One key area where LCDs fall short of top-of-the-line CRTs is refresh rates.

Wow. Just wow. Are you retarded? A CRT is like a flurorescent light bulb whereas an LCD is like an incandescent bulb. LCDs *NEVER* flicker. At 60hz they have a more stable image than a 120hz image on a CRT. The backlight *NEVER* turns off or flickers, and there are no cathode rays being fired at a screen 60, 75, or whatever rate per second.

The CRT fanatics are so uninformed and they have obviously never gamed on an LCD for any length of time using good hardware. :thumbsdown:

Why are none of the major manufacturers still making CRTs going forward? Are they all disillusioned? Do they want to just throw out the millions they put into inventing the CRT? You guys need to wake up.

I run all my games at 1720x1290 @ 85hz on my g500 how come I never notice any flickering?

The reason why CRT is not being manufactuered much anymore is because of their weight, the cost of shipping is much higher than LCDs.

You might not be able to *see* the flickering, but your brain can still detect it, causing eyestrain and headaches.

If CRT had a superior image to LCD, it would still be manufactured as there would be a heavy demand for it. Don't tell me you don't notice the difference when you walk into Best Buy or whatever now; just about all TVs/monitors now are LCD/plasma. They've got better picture quality. Period.

 

[CP5670]

Gotta love fanboys.

CRTs are no longer made because the average person who walks into a BB does not care about image quality (he/she will just be looking at text and websites, after all) and the LCDs look much more elegant on the outside, so LCDs have outsold CRTs to the point that it is no longer profitable to keep CRT manufacturing plants in operation. It has nothing to do with image quality.

My problem with LCDs is the contrast and color banding; dark gradients viewed in a dark room look like crap. And the 2405 isn't very good in this respect even compared to some other LCDs. I was actually seriously considering getting a 2405 at one point given the rave reviews I had read about it and the difficulty in finding high end CRTs, until I got a chance to try it in person. The eyestrain thing is equally subjective; I find LCDs harder on the eyes than CRTs for text because of their excessive brightness, poor contrast and screen door effect. It's a personal preference.

You might prefer LCDs for your usage, which is fine, but they most certainly are not better for all people and all purposes.

This thread is great, by the way. There are two or three separate fights occurring simultaneously. Awesome. :laugh:

 

[lambchops3344]

I am currently saving my money to buy just one 7800 gtx 512. I was going to buy a 7800 gtx but decided to once again hold out for the 512 edition. I have had the same video card for 2 years now and have decided that I deserve something to enjoy and fiddle with. I own a sony 24 inch monitor and want to run current games at 2048 x 1280 85 hertz... I know with this card that is possible.

No lcd can match up to my monitor...

 

[RobertR1]

Originally posted by: gtx4u

The reason why CRT is not being manufactuered much anymore is because of their weight, the cost of shipping is much higher than LCDs.

I'm sure it has more to do with market demand due to the highly favored asthetics of a LCD vs. CRT, not to mention, the higher profit margins.

If CRT's were in high demand and had equal profit margins, they'd still be manufacturered in greater numbers. The profit margins on LCD, Plasma and DLP are ridiculous.