trumps new muslim ban absolutely is 100% ILLEGAL

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Is Trumps new Muslim Ban illegal?


  • Total voters
    70

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,983
31,539
146
If it was Trump's intention to ban Muslims, then yes. But that wasn't the intention of the temp. immigration moratorium.

Oh it was Trump's intent. It was. Do you not believe the guy and his people? (hey, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't. :D) But that is, at least, what he claimed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ys-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/

fuck I need a script to autolink this Guiliani asshole. I keep having to link it for you guys. One day, you might watch it. :D
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,983
31,539
146
It was a flippant response to a childish question.

Why is it a childish question? You claim that the EO was to make American's safer, vis-a-vis Trump publicly calling this a restriction on importing terrorism.

It's as honest a question as there can be: do you feel safer because of it?
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,983
31,539
146
What's funny about this is that it is exactly as you said hypocrisy. All the uproar over this is literally originating from a place of hate for Trump.


Chant with me now:

Trump is not a bad man!
This is not a Muslim Ban!

Trump is not a bad man!
This is not a Muslim Ban!

Trump is not a bad man!
This is not a Muslim Ban!

Maybe it will finally sink in. Not likely though, because you have a testa duro. You know what that is? I bet Giuliani knows ;)

On a more serious note. You can lambaste Trump for requesting a ban on Muslims if what Giuliani says is true. You can rebuke him for a private conversation between he and Giuliani. But you still have to admit that is not what the implementation is doing and that he never publicly stated it as a Muslim ban unless you want to distort the truth (aka lie) about it.

But it's a muslim ban.

Do you think it's to defend us against terrorists? Do you think that is what it does? If not, then what is it? What is it more effective at doing--preventing muslims (but not Christians!) from entering the US, or terrorists?

what is it? What would you call it if you can't call it either of those two things? Why would Bannon and Trump not consult with the departments that are responsible for this kind of policy--you know, the people that actually know what they are doing? Why would they not include any language or any details as to how to "do the things they claim they are doing"?

Do you think it is because this act is not what they say it is? Are you tired of not thinking? Is that the problem?
 

HumblePie

Lifer
Oct 30, 2000
14,665
440
126
Oh it was Trump's intent. It was. Do you not believe the guy and his people? (hey, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't. :D) But that is, at least, what he claimed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ys-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/

fuck I need a script to autolink this Guiliani asshole. I keep having to link it for you guys. One day, you might watch it. :D


Giuliani told Pirro. “Which is a factual basis, not a religious basis. Perfectly legal, perfectly sensible. And that's what the ban is based on. It's not based on religion. It's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country.”

Now Trump is basically trying to make as much good on his campaign promises. Which he stated he would stop the immigration of Muslims to the US. Something as a whole I do not agree with at all. Do I beleive Trump would love to ban all Muslim immigrants and even kick them out? I sure do. Good thing we have this thing called the Constitution he can't get around. Still, he can do some legal things kind of make it look like he's making good on his campaign promises. He can't do a Muslim ban as that is illegal. He can do a ban against immigration from certain countries though. I think the actions are stupid, groundless, and pointless. However, that isn't the argument based on the title of the OP. The title and poll are asking if the executive order is legal or not. The answer being it's legal, but a douchbag thing to do.
 

jackstar7

Lifer
Jun 26, 2009
11,679
1,944
126
It was a flippant response to a childish question.
Government claims REPEATEDLY that this is all for the safety of Americans.

Do you feel safer is not a childish question, but I understand why you think it is so.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
Man that's a lot of questions. To save time I'll answer them in the quote in bold.

But it's a muslim ban.

Do you think it's to defend us against terrorists?

Yes, it is my opinion that this was their intent.

Do you think that is what it does?

It could. In more ways than one. It might be effective, it might not. That remains to be seen. This isn't the first time something very similar to this has been done. This is the first time people got their panties in a wad over it to this extent in recent history though.

If not, then what is it?

What is it more effective at doing--preventing muslims (but not Christians!) from entering the US, or terrorists?

Terrorists and other criminals.

what is it? What would you call it if you can't call it either of those two things?

Why would Bannon and Trump not consult with the departments that are responsible for this kind of policy--you know, the people that actually know what they are doing?

I don't know who they consulted with other than what was already reported in the news.

Why would they not include any language or any details as to how to "do the things they claim they are doing"?

This is a question for them not for me. I didn't take any part in those decisions.

Do you think it is because this act is not what they say it is?

I think it is what they say it is. I give it a 5% chance it's more than that.

Are you tired of not thinking? Is that the problem?

Haha that's funny. Are you feeling a little angry when people don't agree with you?

I bet if Obama or Hillary had done this you wouldn't have even noticed. Tell the truth now...
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
This is the surreal and painful truth: if Hillary had won there's a very good chance she'd be bombing Syrians and Yemenis, rather than simply denying them visas, and no one would have protested.
 
Feb 16, 2005
14,080
5,453
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This is the surreal and painful truth: if Hillary had won there's a very good chance she'd be bombing Syrians and Yemenis, rather than simply denying them visas, and no one would have protested.
Wait, is this betsy devos?? I mean plagiarizing yourself is pretty weak, but fitting for her.
 
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Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Yes, I chose a reputable website over an 'attorney you heard'. Let's try it your way, I heard two attorneys say that your attorney was wrong. Looks like you picked a bad source, haha.

More faulty reasoning from you, brotha. Trump's actions don't need to be exactly like Obama's, but in this case they aren't even close.

Whether or not Politifact is reputable is subject to debate. That Politifact is not (legally) authoritative is not. It is not.

Summary from the Congressional Research Service:

The Immigration and Nationality Act (INA) provides that individual aliens outside the United States are “inadmissible”—or barred from admission to the country—on health, criminal, security, and other grounds set forth in the INA. However, the INA also grants the Executive several broader authorities that could be used to exclude certain individual aliens or classes of aliens for reasons that are not specifically prescribed in the INA. Section 212(f) of the INA is arguably the broadest and best known of these authorities. It provides, in relevant part, that
Whenever the President finds that the entry of any aliens or of any class of aliens into the United States would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, he may by proclamation, and for such period as he shall deem necessary, suspend the entry of all aliens or any class of aliens as immigrants or nonimmigrants, or impose on the entry of aliens any restrictions he may deem to be appropriate.
Over the years, Presidents have relied upon Section 212(f) to suspend or otherwise restrict the entry of individual aliens and classes of aliens, often (although not always) in conjunction with the imposition of financial sanctions upon these aliens. Among those so excluded have been aliens whose actions “threaten the peace, security, or stability of Libya”; officials of the North Korean government; and aliens responsible for “serious human rights violations.” Neither the text of Section 212(f) nor the case law to date suggests any firm legal limits upon the President’s exercise of his authority to exclude aliens under this provision. The central statutory constraint imposed on Section 212(f)’s exclusionary power is that the President must have found that the entry of any alien or class of aliens would be “detrimental to the interests of the United States.” The statute does not address (1) what factors should be considered in determining whether aliens’ entry is “detrimental” to U.S. interests; (2) when and how proclamations suspending or restricting entry should be issued; (3) what factors are to be considered in determining whether particular restrictions are “appropriate”; or (4) how long any restrictions should last. The limited case law addressing exercises of presidential authority under Section 212(f) also supports the view that this provision confers broad authority to bar or impose conditions upon the entry of aliens. Key among these cases is the Supreme Court’s 1993 decision in
Sale v. Haitian Centers Council, Inc.

Fern
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
But it's a muslim ban.

Do you think it's to defend us against terrorists? Do you think that is what it does? If not, then what is it? What is it more effective at doing--preventing muslims (but not Christians!) from entering the US, or terrorists?

what is it? What would you call it if you can't call it either of those two things? Why would Bannon and Trump not consult with the departments that are responsible for this kind of policy--you know, the people that actually know what they are doing? Why would they not include any language or any details as to how to "do the things they claim they are doing"?

Do you think it is because this act is not what they say it is? Are you tired of not thinking? Is that the problem?

No, the problem is the facts don't support your statements, no matter how you try to fit them with the EO. Lets say it WAS Trumps intention to straight out ban Muslims, no matter the country of origin (which is what youre implying...as you keep saying its a Muslim ban). Why would he pick 7 countries that only make up (total population) less than 12% of ALL Muslims worldwide? The only country in the 7 that is in the top 10 of countries sending immigrants is Iraq with a total of 28,705 immigrants between years 2012 and 2013. India, on the other hand, had 146,366 immigrants in the same time frame. Why go through all the trouble of isolating 7 countries when he could have just included India and get 5 times bang for buck? Heck...as much as he's talking about foreigners taking American jobs he could have said India is sending over their people to take over our health care, taxi's, 7-11's, and call center jobs.

I know you aren't stupid, zin, I just don't see how youre able to believe the lie youre spouting?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,236
55,787
136
Whether or not Politifact is reputable is subject to debate. That Politifact is not (legally) authoritative is not. It is not.

Summary from the Congressional Research Service:

Fern

Nothing in that quotes backs up what you said outside of broad statements. It is no more legally authoritative than Politifact.

Politifact is widely regarded as a reputable source across the ideological spectrum.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,236
55,787
136
Oh it was Trump's intent. It was. Do you not believe the guy and his people? (hey, I wouldn't blame you if you didn't. :D) But that is, at least, what he claimed.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news...ys-and-ordered-a-commission-to-do-it-legally/

fuck I need a script to autolink this Guiliani asshole. I keep having to link it for you guys. One day, you might watch it. :D

It is frankly amazing how many people are trying to say that it wasn't his intention to ban muslims when one of his advisors came straight out and said 'he asked me for a legal way to ban muslims so I said do the thing he just did.'

Apparently we are so far down the rabbit hole that even when people come straight out and tell us people still don't believe it. I can't imagine where we will be in four years.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
It is frankly amazing how many people are trying to say that it wasn't his intention to ban muslims when one of his advisors came straight out and said 'he asked me for a legal way to ban muslims so I said do the thing he just did.'

Apparently we are so far down the rabbit hole that even when people come straight out and tell us people still don't believe it. I can't imagine where we will be in four years.

No, whats frankly amazing is how one small part of that conversation has turned into this frenzied "DA KING IS BANNING TEH MUSLIMS!!!" shit. How about read the ENTIRETY of it? Context matters, ya know.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...trump-asked-me-how-to-do-a-muslim-ban-legally
Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani (R) said in an interview on Saturday that President Trump had previously asked him about legally implementing a "Muslim ban."

But Giuliani then disputed the notion that the president's sweeping executive order barring refugees and people from seven predominantly Muslim nations amounts to a ban on Muslims.

"I’ll tell you the whole history of it: When he first announced it, he said ‘Muslim ban,'" Giuliani said on Fox News.

"He called me up, he said, ‘Put a commission together, show me the right way to do it legally.’"

Giuliani said he then put together a commission that included lawmakers and expert lawyers.
"And what we did was we focused on, instead of religion, danger," Giuliani said.

"The areas of the world that create danger for us, which is a factual basis, not a religious basis. Perfectly legal, perfectly sensible."

Giuliani reiterated that the ban is "not based on religion."

"It's based on places where there are substantial evidence that people are sending terrorists into our country," he said.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,983
31,539
146
Man that's a lot of questions. To save time I'll answer them in the quote in bold.



I bet if Obama or Hillary had done this you wouldn't have even noticed. Tell the truth now...

that's silly! Obama and Hillary would not have banned muslims like Bannon and Trump are trying to do. I would have bitched, though. Not that it would have happened.
 

zinfamous

No Lifer
Jul 12, 2006
111,983
31,539
146
No, the problem is the facts don't support your statements, no matter how you try to fit them with the EO. Lets say it WAS Trumps intention to straight out ban Muslims, no matter the country of origin (which is what youre implying...as you keep saying its a Muslim ban). Why would he pick 7 countries that only make up (total population) less than 12% of ALL Muslims worldwide? The only country in the 7 that is in the top 10 of countries sending immigrants is Iraq with a total of 28,705 immigrants between years 2012 and 2013. India, on the other hand, had 146,366 immigrants in the same time frame. Why go through all the trouble of isolating 7 countries when he could have just included India and get 5 times bang for buck? Heck...as much as he's talking about foreigners taking American jobs he could have said India is sending over their people to take over our health care, taxi's, 7-11's, and call center jobs.

I know you aren't stupid, zin, I just don't see how youre able to believe the lie youre spouting?

you're right, it sounds insane. But that is what it is. Both insane and grossly incompetent, and yet here we are.
 

disappoint

Lifer
Dec 7, 2009
10,132
382
126
that's silly! Obama and Hillary would not have banned muslims like Bannon and Trump are trying to do. I would have bitched, though. Not that it would have happened.

Except Obama is the one that picked the 7 countries to begin with.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,236
55,787
136
No, whats frankly amazing is how one small part of that conversation has turned into this frenzied "DA KING IS BANNING TEH MUSLIMS!!!" shit. How about read the ENTIRETY of it? Context matters, ya know.

http://thehill.com/homenews/adminis...trump-asked-me-how-to-do-a-muslim-ban-legally

Nope, I read the whole thing. What he is saying is totally obvious, that he was searching for a way to implement Trump's desired Muslim ban and chose that as a justification. I mean it's not like he is ambiguous on the issue.