Trumps child-care plan will disproportionately benefit the wealthy

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
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By at least 70%. Go fucking figure right?

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-m...pelosi-says-donald-trumps-child-care-proposa/

"House Minority Leader Nancy Pelosi, D-Calif., said she cannot jump on board with President Donald Trump’s child care proposals because they won’t actually help the poorest Americans.

On CNN’s State of the Union, moderator Jake Tapper said, "In a speech to a joint session of Congress, President Trump renewed his commitment to child care and paid family leave ... Paid family leave, a big Democratic priority for a long time, is that something you could work with the president on?"

Pelosi said, "The first conversation I had with him after the election, that week of the election, we talked about that subject, and a subject that his family is interested in as well. But what he has proposed is something that benefits -- 70 percent of the benefits go to people making over $100,000 a year."

We decided to check out Pelosi’s claim.

It’s important to note she is not referring to the estimated benefits of paid family leave, but the monetary benefits of Trump’s child care tax proposals.

Trump has made no formal attempts to advance his paid family leave policy yet, although both Democratic and Republican senators introduced two different bills on this general issue. So all we have is an analysis of his proposal from the campaign.

Trump’s proposal includes six weeks of paid maternity leave if no policy is offered by an employer; tax deductions for child care expenses up to age 13, capped at the average cost of childcare per state; a refundable tax credit for child care costs for lower-income families; and expanding tax-free savings accounts for childcare and school tuition.

The Tax Policy Center, run by the Urban Institute and Brookings Institution, released its study of Trump’s child care plan Feb. 28, a few days before Pelosi’s interview. Pelosi’s spokesman confirmed she was citing this report on during her CNN interview.

The Tax Policy Center study found that 70 percent of total tax benefits would go to families earning more than $100,000.

The reason? Trump’s plan relies on tax deductions, which are worth more per dollar for higher income families. That’s because families with higher incomes face higher marginal tax rates. Lower-income families may spend less on child care because they often rely on informal, low-cost arrangements.

Chye-Ching Huang, one of the study’s co-authors and deputy director of federal tax policy at the left-leaning Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, said in an email, "The estimate that 70 percent of the benefits go to those with incomes over $100,000 is conservative -- the share going to those with incomes over $100,000 could very well be higher."

Analysts looked at three new tax benefits related to child care proposed by his campaign: the deduction for child care expenses, a refundable credit aimed at low-income families without stay-at-home parents, and the expansion of tax-free savings accounts.

According to their report, Trump’s plan would increase the average after-tax income for families by about $190 in 2017. Those with an income below $40,000 per year might see an increase of $20 or less. Families making between $100,000-$200,000 per year might see an average jump of $360.

Further, they say Trump’s proposed tax credit for lower-income families is worth less than the deduction. Taxpayers who claim the credit would benefit by up to 7.7 cents per dollar spent on child care. Those claiming the deduction may receive between 10 and 39.6 cents per dollar spent on child care. Lower income families are also less likely to place money into Trump’s proposed savings accounts due to lower levels of financial liquidity.

In sum, then, the report finds that Trump’s current family leave policy is regressive, helping families in higher income brackets more than those in lower-income ones.

Alan Cole, an economist from the Tax Foundation, said that he agreed with the distribution tables from the Tax Policy Center’s report. "The only caveat I'd add is that campaign proposals like this one tend to be refined and revamped after people take office," he said. "I could easily see the next version of the policy having a different distributional impact."

The White House did not respond to a request for comment.

Our ruling

Pelosi said that Trump’s plan for child care would mean that "70 percent of the benefits go to the people making $100,000 a year."

The one comprehensive study released so far by an independent group supports Pelosi’s claim. It’s possible that different studies -- or a substantive change to the Trump administration proposal as it works its way toward enactment -- could weaken the certainty of Pelosi’s analysis. Based on what we know now, though, we rate her statement True."
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
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Good, we need more children from successful families and less children from those that can't afford them.
 

Zorba

Lifer
Oct 22, 1999
15,613
11,256
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Good, we need more children from successful families and less children from those that can't afford them.

Coldhearted, but very true. Personally, I'm for massively simplifying personal taxes, so I am for getting rid of all child tax benefits in general.
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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I'm supposed to feel bad that the poor are getting a tax credit but you think it should be bigger?

BTW, basic game theory says the expected split rate of an unexpected windfall is pretty much 30% just like this proposed child care credit. IOW, if some eccentric old man on a plane offers you and another person $10,000 so long as you can make an offer on how to split it that the other person will accept, the scientifically derived offer you should make that maximizes both your gain and the likelihood of acceptance is $7k for you and $3k for the other person. Trump is a keen negotiator and you can be damn sure he knows that formula and that in the end the Democrats will accept that split.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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I'm supposed to feel bad that the poor are getting a tax credit but you think it should be bigger?

BTW, basic game theory says the expected split rate of an unexpected windfall is pretty much 30% just like this proposed child care credit. IOW, if some eccentric old man on a plane offers you and another person $10,000 so long as you can make an offer on how to split it that the other person will accept, the scientifically derived offer you should make that maximizes both your gain and the likelihood of acceptance is $7k for you and $3k for the other person. Trump is a keen negotiator and you can be damn sure he knows that formula and that in the end the Democrats will accept that split.

I see little evidence that Trump is a keen negotiator as after all he appears to have negotiated himself into sub-index fund returns over the years.

More importantly, I'm extremely sure that Democrats will not accept that split and I'm interested in taking bets from anyone who thinks otherwise, yourself included.
 

MrPickins

Diamond Member
May 24, 2003
9,125
792
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I'm supposed to feel bad that the poor are getting a tax credit but you think it should be bigger?

BTW, basic game theory says the expected split rate of an unexpected windfall is pretty much 30% just like this proposed child care credit. IOW, if some eccentric old man on a plane offers you and another person $10,000 so long as you can make an offer on how to split it that the other person will accept, the scientifically derived offer you should make that maximizes both your gain and the likelihood of acceptance is $7k for you and $3k for the other person. Trump is a keen negotiator and you can be damn sure he knows that formula and that in the end the Democrats will accept that split.

So you're in favor of regressive tax policies if that's all you can try to pass. :confused2:
 

glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
25,383
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I see little evidence that Trump is a keen negotiator as after all he appears to have negotiated himself into sub-index fund returns over the years.

More importantly, I'm extremely sure that Democrats will not accept that split and I'm interested in taking bets from anyone who thinks otherwise, yourself included.

I'm fine if you do, it shows you don't know the basics of game theory. Refusing tax credits for the poor just because the rich get "more" (since their income is higher) is a stupid strategy but I expect nothing less from you or Democrats. If you'd rather have zero than a 30% split then enjoy your zero.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,152
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I'm fine if you do, it shows you don't know the basics of game theory. Refusing tax credits for the poor just because the rich get "more" (since their income is higher) is a stupid strategy but I expect nothing less from you or Democrats. If you'd rather have zero than a 30% split then enjoy your zero.

No, it shows you don't understand the game you're trying to apply. Speaking of the basics of game theory the ultimatum game deals with a windfall where there are no costs to the 'prize' being distributed, which is not remotely the case here. Refusing tax credits for the poor because the rich get more is a perfectly smart strategy because it has a long term impact on the ability to cut taxes/spend on other priorities. It's the same reason why tax cuts weighted similarly are/will be rejected by Democrats.

Don't try to apply theories you don't understand.
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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No, it shows you don't understand the game you're trying to apply. Speaking of the basics of game theory the ultimatum game deals with a windfall where there are no costs to the 'prize' being distributed, which is not remotely the case here. Refusing tax credits for the poor because the rich get more is a perfectly smart strategy because it has a long term impact on the ability to cut taxes/spend on other priorities. It's the same reason why tax cuts weighted similarly are/will be rejected by Democrats.

Don't try to apply theories you don't understand.

Yeah, other priorities like the military. Like I said, enjoy getting 100% share of zero. Trump and the GOP will simply and happily shift tax cuts to the wealthy with even less of a fig leaf to the poor next time, there are plenty of tax cuts to be had besides 'childcare".
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
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Yeah, other priorities like the military. Like I said, enjoy getting 100% share of zero. Trump and the GOP will simply and happily shift tax cuts to the wealthy with even less of a fig leaf to the poor next time, there are plenty of tax cuts to be had besides 'childcare".

Meh, the GOP is going to hugely cut taxes for the rich anyway and without the veneer of bipartisanship they are easier to repeal. All of these cuts will be unable to get 60 votes without Democrats and therefore will have to be passed through reconciliation, meaning they will go away on their own in time.

Sounds like the problem solves itself to me!
 
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glenn1

Lifer
Sep 6, 2000
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So you're in favor of regressive tax policies if that's all you can try to pass. :confused2:

The split for the Bush era tax cuts was even more than 30% IIRC. Democrats were smarter than fskimospy then and accepted those cuts just like they will with these childcare tax credits. To think otherwise is an exercise in self-delusion. Things like Pelosi complaining about the split is just voicing the obligatory words her base expects before they accept the deal.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,152
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The split for the Bush era tax cuts was even more than 30% IIRC. Democrats were smarter than fskimospy then and accepted those cuts just like they will with these childcare tax credits. To think otherwise is an exercise in self-delusion. Things like Pelosi complaining about the split is just voicing the obligatory words her base expects before they accept the deal.

Speaking of self-delusion, Democrats voted overwhelmingly against both Bush tax cuts. When they came up to their sunset provision in 2012 about 75% of the tax cuts for the rich were repealed and overall tax rates for the rich increased sharply under Obama.

Republicans of course didn't accept those changes any more than Democrats would accept these. Again, this isn't complicated so long as you don't confuse yourself by trying to apply games you don't understand.
 

pcgeek11

Lifer
Jun 12, 2005
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So they are basing this on something that was discussed in general during the Trump Campaign and not an actual proposal.
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
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Shouldn't that be applied before they have children and not after?

That seems to imply that most children are born due to accident/unforeseen events rather than after some form of conscious planning. By definition, don't incentives exist to encourage behavior before it is actually indulged in?

What if they could afford them?

They still shouldn't be encouraged. Incentives for reproduction are incredibly unnecessary.

fwiw I think child tax credits for the non-poor are ultimately unnecessary too, except perhaps for medical reasons where a poor family might receive heavily-subsidized healthcare and a middle-class one not. We need to crack down on our population problem now, it's only going to get worse with ever year that we don't.
 
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agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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That seems to imply that most children are born due to accident/unforeseen events rather than after some form of conscious planning. By definition, don't incentives exist to encourage behavior before it is actually indulged in?



They still shouldn't be encouraged. Incentives for reproduction are incredibly unnecessary.

fwiw I think child tax credits for the non-poor are ultimately unnecessary too, except perhaps for medical reasons where a poor family might receive heavily-subsidized healthcare and a middle-class one not. We need to crack down on our population problem now, it's only going to get worse with ever year that we don't.

"Successful" people are often relatively poor in their best child bearing years, it's simply a matter of fact that poorness is correlated with more kids to ensure a successful one, eg. every third world country. Basically your plan is counterproductive; if the goal is less kids then making everyone middle class is the best solution.
 
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Double Trouble

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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I have not seen any formal proposal on this other than pre-election campaign stuff. Of course anything that incorporates tax deductions is going to be more beneficial to the middle and upper class because they have higher marginal tax rates. If I recall there was also talk about using EITC's as part of the process, but I'm not sure. If there is also a cap on the income to be eligible for the deductions or credits, it can't be said to benefit the rich, it would benefit mostly the middle and upper middle class.

My reaction is a solid shoulder shrug "meh", I would have lower eligibility caps and I would tie caps to some sort of index so it stays similar over time instead of having to change the cap number by legislation.

Other than simply handing out more to lower income people, how could you have any kind of tax benefit without it disproportionately helping those who actually pay net positive amounts in taxes?
 

HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
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"Successful" people are often relatively poor in their best child bearing years, it's simply a matter of fact that poorness is correlated with more kids to ensure a successful one, eg. every third world country. Basically your plan is counterproductive; if the goal is less kids then making everyone middle class is the best solution.

While the incidence of Down's syndrome and other birth issues increases with age, it's still relatively uncommon at the age the median woman with a college degree has children (28-30 is what Google is telling me). Prenatal screening will only get better with time as well (some religious interference aside). I don't understand your point about poorness and more kids; certainly it's true that very poor families with high child mortality rates have more children, but being the best child for a rough agrarian upbringing isn't necessarily the best child for a modern, tech-savvy setting. The ultimate goal is discouraging families from bad decisions which they can't take back, for the purpose of dealing with exploding population and standards of living worldwide, all the while our cheapest energy sources are drained. Unfortunately, most members of the middle-class are extremely wasteful consuming and debt-holding machines, and I think their children have as much potential for large problems in the future as the poor do. Anyone that isn't flush in cash or willing to forego luxuries to support their children without government aid should consider sterilization after the first child.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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While the incidence of Down's syndrome and other birth issues increases with age, it's still relatively uncommon at the age the median woman with a college degree has children (28-30 is what Google is telling me). Prenatal screening will only get better with time as well (some religious interference aside). I don't understand your point about poorness and more kids; certainly it's true that very poor families with high child mortality rates have more children, but being the best child for a rough agrarian upbringing isn't necessarily the best child for a modern, tech-savvy setting. The ultimate goal is discouraging families from bad decisions which they can't take back, for the purpose of dealing with exploding population and standards of living worldwide, all the while our cheapest energy sources are drained. Unfortunately, most members of the middle-class are extremely wasteful consuming and debt-holding machines, and I think their children have as much potential for large problems in the future as the poor do. Anyone that isn't flush in cash or willing to forego luxuries to support their children should consider sterilization after the first child.
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I'm literally pointing the simple realities here. Shutting out the aspiring middle class in their kid-popping years will reduce their kid count, people in their 30's+ do not have many kids if at all. Really poor people simply have more kids so that there's a better chance they'll be taken care of later (you now, because they're poor). These are the empirical facts, women in developing countries gradually have less kids almost without fail as their econ situation improve, so use that as a guide to figure out the working strategy.
 
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HamburgerBoy

Lifer
Apr 12, 2004
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.
I'm literally pointing the simple realities here. Shutting out the aspiring middle class in their kid-popping years will reduce their kid count, people in their 30's+ do not have many kids if at all. Really poor people simply have more kids so that there's a better chance they'll be taken care of later (you now, because they're poor). These are the empirical facts, women in developing countries gradually have less kids almost without fail as their econ situation improve, so use that as a guide to figure out the working strategy.

I get your point now, but it's not a very realistic solution (certainly not something that could be achieved via even the world's most progressive child tax exemption), and it doesn't consider that the average middle-class child costs a lot more than several children in a developing nation.
 

agent00f

Lifer
Jun 9, 2016
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I get your point now, but it's not a very realistic solution (certainly not something that could be achieved via even the world's most progressive child tax exemption), and it doesn't consider that the average middle-class child costs a lot more than several children in a developing nation.

If you're willing to supply a good enough school/edu environment and some econ opportunities afterwards, you can consider the poor as cheap childcare outside those hours.