Trump and China call cease fire on tariffs

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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
34,004
8,040
136
This whole fearmongering messaging isn't working - and there has been zero proof of it really hindering us.

In fact - the only news I've heard related to tariffs hurting us, has been China's retaliatory tariffs hurting our farming sector.

Jane, you ignorant....*cough
I mean take a look at this.

Tariffs Are Costing Jobs: A Look At How Many
In late August, the U.S. International Trade Commission voted unanimously to end the tariffs on Canadian newsprint, in effect, overturning a U.S. Commerce Department decision. However, the damage to those who lost their jobs was already done.
It has turned into the joke Ronald Reagan used to tell: “Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.” This accurately describes Donald Trump’s trade policy: After farmers lost sales when other countries retaliated against U.S. tariffs and trade regulation, the administration’s solution was to subsidize farmers with $12 billion in aid.
Trump tariffs costing US consumers $1.4 billion per month

1111.1553529225597.png
 
Last edited:
Nov 8, 2012
20,828
4,777
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Jane, you ignorant....*cough
I mean take a look at this.

Tariffs Are Costing Jobs: A Look At How Many
In late August, the U.S. International Trade Commission voted unanimously to end the tariffs on Canadian newsprint, in effect, overturning a U.S. Commerce Department decision. However, the damage to those who lost their jobs was already done.
It has turned into the joke Ronald Reagan used to tell: “Government’s view of the economy could be summed up in a few short phrases: If it moves, tax it. If it keeps moving, regulate it. And if it stops moving, subsidize it.” This accurately describes Donald Trump’s trade policy: After farmers lost sales when other countries retaliated against U.S. tariffs and trade regulation, the administration’s solution was to subsidize farmers with $12 billion in aid.
Trump tariffs costing US consumers $1.4 billion per month

1111.1553529225597.png


Do you know what economics is?

Economics isn't cherry-picking companies, sectors, or industries broceritops.

It's VERY clear that in our current economy we have zero problems with jobs. The only problem that we do have is we have a huge labor shortage for all the demand that companies are getting.
 
Nov 8, 2012
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I agree that conservative fearmongering about trade isn't working - free trade is becoming more and more popular and the popularity of Trump's tariffs is in the toilet. People just aren't buying his fear campaign, which is why his tariffs are unpopular with voters.

This trade war is stupid and it's costing us money for no good reason. All because the president is too stupid to understand how international trade works and too stubborn to learn better.

That's the precise problem. China ISNT doing free-trade. We are ASKING that they do free-trade.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Do you know what economics is?

Economics isn't cherry-picking companies, sectors, or industries broceritops.

It's VERY clear that in our current economy we have zero problems with jobs. The only problem that we do have is we have a huge labor shortage for all the demand that companies are getting.

If we have a huge labor shortage then wages would be rising significantly. In the most recent quarter real wages grew at a 1.4% annual rate. While this isn't bad it's hardly indicative of a huge labor shortage. Hell, in late 2017 and early 2018 real wages weren't just stagnant, they were DECLINING.

As far as tariffs go it is perfectly reasonable to highlight the areas in which tariffs are damaging the economy because that's what tariffs are, targeted economic policies at specific sectors.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
That's the precise problem. China ISNT doing free-trade. We are ASKING that they do free-trade.

Trump isn't asking that they do free trade, he doesn't even understand the terms under discussion. What Trump is trying to do is big dog them because he's emotionally needy.

China is most certainly a bad trade actor but Trump isn't going to solve that problem because 1) he abandoned an actually effective way of dealing with it in TPP and 2) China will probably be unwilling to actually undertake reforms because they don't trust Trump to follow through on his end. They'll make token concessions as they always have and then wait him out.
 
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blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
If we have a huge labor shortage then wages would be rising significantly. In the most recent quarter real wages grew at a 1.4% annual rate. While this isn't bad it's hardly indicative of a huge labor shortage. Hell, in late 2017 and early 2018 real wages weren't just stagnant, they were DECLINING.

As far as tariffs go it is perfectly reasonable to highlight the areas in which tariffs are damaging the economy because that's what tariffs are, targeted economic policies at specific sectors.

Are you implying we DONT have a huge labor shortage?
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Are you implying we DONT have a huge labor shortage?

I'm not implying it, I'm flat out stating it.

If we had a huge labor shortage that should mean that companies would be competing very heavily for labor. How do companies compete for labor? Raise wages.

fredgraph.png


That is unless you're saying we've had a huge labor shortage since 2015? If not, are you saying that companies are simultaneously desperate for labor but unwilling to compete successfully for it?
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,284
13,581
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Are you implying we DONT have a huge labor shortage?
Given wage growth vs buying power:
1557504362609.png
And given the rise of 'gig economy' jobs:
1557504487072.png
as well as part time growth:
1557504533458.png
I highly suspect that while we have a 'labor shortage', we still have an issue with people actually being employed at a rate that most would consider acceptable. From all appearances, there isn't enough actual money in the middle to low-end of the spectrum to hire people at a reasonable rate. This is probably due to the buying power of the middle class being stripped in favor of increasing the hoards of dragons.

Feel free to critique, and offer a counterpoint.
 
Jan 25, 2011
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It would not appear so as he still apparently thinks that China is paying the tariffs when it's Americans who are paying them.
I was referring to the most recent tweet about building in the US to avoid them. He's starting to get it.

Unless you outsource materials of course.....
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
I'm not implying it, I'm flat out stating it.

If we had a huge labor shortage that should mean that companies would be competing very heavily for labor. How do companies compete for labor? Raise wages.

fredgraph.png


That is unless you're saying we've had a huge labor shortage since 2015? If not, are you saying that companies are simultaneously desperate for labor but unwilling to compete successfully for it?
I used one company as an example in another thread-Walmart- who has increased wages for truck drivers to 90k as an example of rising wages.... But whatever. Believe what you want I guess.
 

[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,284
13,581
146
I used one company as an example in another thread-Walmart- who has increased wages for truck drivers to 90k as an example of rising wages.... But whatever. Believe what you want I guess.
Not the best example, considering that's one of the industries that's on the cusp of complete automation (and you can be assured Walmart will be early out the gate). Where's the wage hike for the rank and file folks? Have they stopped their practice of 29-hr hires + overtime to avoid paying for healthcare like when I was working there?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Not the best example, considering that's one of the industries that's on the cusp of complete automation (and you can be assured Walmart will be early out the gate). Where's the wage hike for the rank and file folks? Have they stopped their practice of 29-hr hires + overtime to avoid paying for healthcare like when I was working there?
Ok so because wages aren't increasing for everyone in every position, there is no shortage of labor. Got it.
 

ivwshane

Lifer
May 15, 2000
32,548
15,424
136
If you ever picked up on a post of mine you know that I am not a fan of Colluding Treasoning Trump, but why is free, as in totally free, trade a bad thing? Thats what he wants right?
Is it because of the possibility that you become depended on a foreign powers ie. food supply(farmers, the center of it all), a foreign nation that you later may have beef with on some unrelated business? Leverage?
Like... Russia with gas and metals?
At the face of it, I like the idea of 100% free trade, I can also see how it has implications.

Free trade is great for consumers not so much the workers and guess who most of the consumers are? The workers. Its a race to the bottom. Its also bad for the environment and for IP.

Trade deals are good because you can increase worker conditions/pay as well as protect the environment and IP. If you do those things then the impact on workers and by extension consumers, will be minimal as companies won't be competing against whatever country is willing to screw over its workers and environment the most.
 
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[DHT]Osiris

Lifer
Dec 15, 2015
15,284
13,581
146
Ok so because wages aren't increasing for everyone in every position, there is no shortage of labor. Got it.
Never said that, just said your example of one employer in one industry increasing wages for one position is a shit example of how there's no labor shortage. I even said above that on paper, there probably *is* a labor shortage, but overall I think it's a misleading figure and something be touted far too much wrt the US economy.

By like every other quantifiable figure, the actual economic capacity of the average citizen has been frustratingly low for what, like 20 years? You want to tell me that because the 16-24 gap is working at Uber I should be thrilled with the economic state of our country?
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,238
136
Oooooh looks like someone might have finally told the Donald how tariffs work.

D6NIySVVUAAO_Rp.jpg:large
Goddamn he's a clueless nitwit.

I can't decide if he genuinely still doesn't understand the basic facts of what a tariff is, or just such a shameless liar he feels free selling lies to his base as they are too dumb and clueless to understand what's going on.

Either way the radioactive stupidity here is causing brain cancer.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
14,336
136
It would not appear so as he still apparently thinks that China is paying the tariffs when it's Americans who are paying them.
Yeah, it bothers me a bit that the President and so many of his supporters seem so completely unaware that the US govt has no tax authority over a foreign govt.
It bothers me even more that the President is using his office to exert so much influence on the markets without disclosing his financials. We the American People have the right to know about his conflicts of interest.
 

hal2kilo

Lifer
Feb 24, 2009
24,222
10,877
136
I used one company as an example in another thread-Walmart- who has increased wages for truck drivers to 90k as an example of rising wages.... But whatever. Believe what you want I guess.
That's is because there is a severe shortage of truck drivers. I blame mj screening. :)
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
I used one company as an example in another thread-Walmart- who has increased wages for truck drivers to 90k as an example of rising wages.... But whatever. Believe what you want I guess.

You're using an anecdote about one company, I'm using official government numbers for the entire work force.

If anyone's believing what they want here, it's you.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Yeah, it bothers me a bit that the President and so many of his supporters seem so completely unaware that the US govt has no tax authority over a foreign govt.
It bothers me even more that the President is using his office to exert so much influence on the markets without disclosing his financials. We the American People have the right to know about his conflicts of interest.

Especially considering we know he tried exactly that sort of fraud scheme earlier in life.
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Never said that, just said your example of one employer in one industry increasing wages for one position is a shit example of how there's no labor shortage. I even said above that on paper, there probably *is* a labor shortage, but overall I think it's a misleading figure and something be touted far too much wrt the US economy.

By like every other quantifiable figure, the actual economic capacity of the average citizen has been frustratingly low for what, like 20 years? You want to tell me that because the 16-24 gap is working at Uber I should be thrilled with the economic state of our country?

I dont know WTF youre talking about. According to the Beaureu of Labor wages are up, especially lower income sector:

0313GS.png
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
85,632
50,853
136
Which government are you talking about? Yer jus' bad at math

Job openings March 2019 7.5 million
Unemployed in March 2019 5.8 million

(cant wait to see how you spin this)

I'm talking about the United States government, those are the numbers I quoted you after all.

Labor force participation rate for prime aged population is still significantly below historical averages, suggesting there are still quite a few more people available to join the work force who have not.

fredgraph.png


I'll notice that you completely dodged the central question though, probably because you can't answer it. If companies have a shortage of labor why has the real price of labor increased at the same or even lower rate that it was in 2015, a time when no one would have argued we had a shortage of labor? Shouldn't that be econ 101 if we really have a labor shortage? Is your answer somehow that companies are both desperate for labor and unable to meet their requirements but also unwilling to pay more for it?

I don't know why you're trying to insult me, claim I'm 'spinning', or claim that I can somehow 'believe what I want to believe' when everything I'm telling you is based on publicly available, audited statistics from our government. The only explanation I can think of is that this contrary information is making you angry and you don't want to believe it.