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Trump Administration Seeks to Avoid Withdrawal From Paris Climate Accord

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As I said, I believe he the truth is the truth and that not all opinions can possibly be equal. I also believe you have offered the best argument in defense of the notion the accord is not a treaty. That is my opinion. If you want me to say I do not respect the Heritage argument, fine, I can do that, but while I can disagree with the conclusions people come to, I can't, oh I can, but I don't want that to lead to disrespect for the person who I think is wrong. When you calltaj a liar, I don't see his lie as conscious. I just thing he does not see the difference in the quality of the argument you give and the ones he has linked. I thing taj is wrong but not actually dishonest. I think your argument is logically compelling and quoting different links that all source back to the same thing is all that needs saying. To know if somebody is consciously lying and engaged in an effort to deceive, is something only he could really know. I don't want to judge that. Whether he is or not will not change the truth.

That there are deceives and deceived and that the damage done by both can be tremendous, it isn't within Amy power I can find within myself, to tell for sure one from the other.
The resident Minister of Truth now claims that every different listed post is somehow "Heritage" and that even as he admits that the Obama Administration danced, dodged, tip toed, twirled, sashayed, lied, cheated, stole and played ping pong with ways to try to avoid being considered a treaty, the Paris Climate Treaty is still a treaty. It was a Treaty when Canada signed it, it was a Treaty when Mexico signed it and it was a Treaty when Obama attempted to sign it. You can call it a goose or a rose or anything you want. It doesn't make it so.
 
The resident Minister of Truth now claims that every different listed post is somehow "Heritage" and that even as he admits that the Obama Administration danced, dodged, tip toed, twirled, sashayed, lied, cheated, stole and played ping pong with ways to try to avoid being considered a treaty, the Paris Climate Treaty is still a treaty. It was a Treaty when Canada signed it, it was a Treaty when Mexico signed it and it was a Treaty when Obama attempted to sign it. You can call it a goose or a rose or anything you want. It doesn't make it so.

If you read your own links you would see they literally link to the Heritage piece. lol.
 
Dense .

"...if dense is used as figurative (of a person), then dense means that it's difficult to explain anything to that person because they can't make sense of complex ideas (because their head is too "dense" or "thick" to get anything through)

It does not mean stupid although it is often used to describe people who are also stupid. For example, a lawyer who argues what the word "is" means could be described as dense. Stupid is lacking in intelligence whereas dense infers that a person's head is too thick to teach anything to him/her.

People who exhaust you by asking for further clarification on anything from policies and procedures by asking questions they wouldn't ask had they understood your previous answer to one of their previous questions are dense - their skulls are too thick to get anything through to their heads so they don't understand even the simplest lowest common denominator definitions!

A dense person is the opposite of an airhead, although about as useful.

If you had to read this definition several times to understand it - and you still don't really understand it, it is because you are dense."
 
It's a bummer Trump's dad avoided withdrawal.
Only if we could travel back in time.
HAJa7Y3.jpg
 
The resident Minister of Truth now claims that every different listed post is somehow "Heritage" and that even as he admits that the Obama Administration danced, dodged, tip toed, twirled, sashayed, lied, cheated, stole and played ping pong with ways to try to avoid being considered a treaty, the Paris Climate Treaty is still a treaty. It was a Treaty when Canada signed it, it was a Treaty when Mexico signed it and it was a Treaty when Obama attempted to sign it. You can call it a goose or a rose or anything you want. It doesn't make it so.
It doesn't make it so in your opinion. It would make him right if in truth he is. I notice you just stated your opinion and didn't add he's a useful idiot. That kind of labeling is what I object to. What I think is happening here is that your opinion represents a threat to his moral values, that rational analysis and understanding is essential. That is how liberals are including me. What I think flies out the window with many liberals is that you also have sacred moral principles that inform and mold your view that liberals have no morals and are willing to cheat to slip treaty by as an accord. It is this fundamental belief that the other is a moral threat that bothers me. The truth is the truth and can't be made truer or falser by my opinions.

My guess is that you are not opposed to the values that logic and reason have value, that you would not support the idea you are devoid of them. I think you share that value with him. But as a conservative you have a broader pallet of moral concerns that come into play that make your emphasis change. You are defending moral values he does not share. I think he incorrectly judges you harshly for that. Your feeling is that he is attacking morality itself whereas in fact his opinion is that you have misunderstood and are incorrectly weighing the principles that count.

In short, I see you defending moral values and he does not. I think that I understand you better than he does because I see value in conservative moral concerns, I don't see value in many positions conservatives take based on those moral values because I think conservatives are convinced that because their morals have value, that somehow slops over in in the form of certainty that because their morals have value, how they apply them must also be correct. I believe it isn't anywhere near always correct.
 
What language are you referring to?

If you read the Heritage piece you will notice the number of court precedents it cites to back up its case: zero. The only thing it cites is an ambiguous state department procedure, meaning their case is based on the idea that the president's constitutional powers are constrained by guidelines that a previous president put together. That is entirely logically incoherent. Hell, NAFTA wasn't even a treaty and that contained all sorts of binding measures.

This is exactly the sort of thing Heritage exists to do, muddy the waters and provide conservative propaganda that changes an issue from 100% 'this is not a treaty' to 'I guess I don't know.' Their long history of lies on this issue and many others should tell you why they deserve no attention or credence. They don't care if they lie to you, they only care about the ends.
I have made the same case for years and years. Let's assume that every word of it is true. Why is it that you and I can see this but the 'useful idiots' can.t. How did it happen there are people in the world so corrupted and empathy barren that for a few silver they would sell out God? Can you imagine a life without the satisfactions you derive from standing up for real truth and can you not feel what it must be like to live a live in which that joy is absent?

If you can't put your finger on what makes you different than they are, but can see the relative poverty of their lives without that difference, can you attribute your good fortune to anything but luck? In the great bell curve of life, you live turned out to be a pretty good one morally speaking. How then do we condemn the 'useful idiots' who are perhaps also only such by chance, and the same with the criminally corrupt to pollute the lives of others with lies. I believe that what I know brings inner joy to my life and I can see nothing about me personally that made it happen. I see a slot machine and I got a lucky pull. I am not innately worthy of anything and that means others are not innately guilty of anything either. We are what we are and what I want to do is to find a way to share. I believe that truth isn't just truth. Truth is love.and that is real love the lover and the beloved are one. We do not know how many times in life we get to pull the lever. I want to say, pull here.
 
It doesn't make it so in your opinion. It would make him right if in truth he is. I notice you just stated your opinion and didn't add he's a useful idiot. That kind of labeling is what I object to. What I think is happening here is that your opinion represents a threat to his moral values, that rational analysis and understanding is essential. That is how liberals are including me. What I think flies out the window with many liberals is that you also have sacred moral principles that inform and mold your view that liberals have no morals and are willing to cheat to slip treaty by as an accord. It is this fundamental belief that the other is a moral threat that bothers me. The truth is the truth and can't be made truer or falser by my opinions.

My guess is that you are not opposed to the values that logic and reason have value, that you would not support the idea you are devoid of them. I think you share that value with him. But as a conservative you have a broader pallet of moral concerns that come into play that make your emphasis change. You are defending moral values he does not share. I think he incorrectly judges you harshly for that. Your feeling is that he is attacking morality itself whereas in fact his opinion is that you have misunderstood and are incorrectly weighing the principles that count.

In short, I see you defending moral values and he does not. I think that I understand you better than he does because I see value in conservative moral concerns, I don't see value in many positions conservatives take based on those moral values because I think conservatives are convinced that because their morals have value, that somehow slops over in in the form of certainty that because their morals have value, how they apply them must also be correct. I believe it isn't anywhere near always correct.
The same people that are telling you it isn't a treaty and it isn't binding are the same people that said President Trump can't stop it because it's a binding agreement until 2020. They want their Treaty cake, but they don't want to bake it.
 
The same people that are telling you it isn't a treaty and it isn't binding are the same people that said President Trump can't stop it because it's a binding agreement until 2020. They want their Treaty cake, but they don't want to bake it.

https://www.justsecurity.org/41705/paris-binding-agreement-matters/

According to this link an internationally binding agreement is called a treaty in international law but that the Paris accord was agreed to by the Senate not to be a treaty in the US constitutional sense. So yes, apparently we are legally bound to 2020 even though it is treaty in international law but one that fits the US definition of treaty requiring Senate confirmation. At any rate, if you finish reading the link you will see reasons given as to why treaty abrogation of the Paris agreement is a very bad idea for the country. As a person who is conservative because you think that brings the best values to your country, do you see anything in those warnings that would give you pause in wanting Trump to unilaterally withdraw? No matter what your ideology may be, everybody I would think should want a world with the safest climate for the most people that we can get. It is morally wrong to damage our world because some people with a lot of power have that power from the wealth they make off fossil fuels they don't want regulated and don't want alternative competition.
 
https://www.justsecurity.org/41705/paris-binding-agreement-matters/

According to this link an internationally binding agreement is called a treaty in international law but that the Paris accord was agreed to by the Senate not to be a treaty in the US constitutional sense. So yes, apparently we are legally bound to 2020 even though it is treaty in international law but not one that fits the US definition of treaty requiring Senate confirmation. At any rate, if you finish reading the link you will see reasons given as to why treaty abrogation of the Paris agreement is a very bad idea for the country. As a person who is conservative because you think that brings the best values to your country, do you see anything in those warnings that would give you pause in wanting Trump to unilaterally withdraw? No matter what your ideology may be, everybody I would think should want a world with the safest climate for the most people that we can get. It is morally wrong to damage our world because some people with a lot of power have that power from the wealth they make off fossil fuels they don't want regulated and don't want alternative competition.
 
Sorry Moonbeam, the authors of the piece make my case for me, it's a binding agreement and as such it's a Treaty and would need to be sent for ratification. Just because the authors really, really want it to pass and think it may be detrimental to the future of the United States carrying out future commitments doesn't change the fact that it's an International Treaty.

"If the United States cannot be counted on to carry out our commitments when the Presidency changes political parties, it will erode trust in future Presidents of any political party to enter into agreements with partners. Over time, this lack of reliability will relegate the United States to the periphery of international policymaking. When the world’s biggest power cannot be counted on to live up to its commitments, the center of power may shift out from under it."

This is exactly why it needed to be sent to the United States Senate by President Obama in the first place. It's a damn treaty that the majority of our country doesn't support, especially a super majority of the Senate.

https://www.justsecurity.org/41705/paris-binding-agreement-matters/

According to this link an internationally binding agreement is called a treaty in international law but that the Paris accord was agreed to by the Senate not to be a treaty in the US constitutional sense. So yes, apparently we are legally bound to 2020 even though it is treaty in international law but one that fits the US definition of treaty requiring Senate confirmation. At any rate, if you finish reading the link you will see reasons given as to why treaty abrogation of the Paris agreement is a very bad idea for the country. As a person who is conservative because you think that brings the best values to your country, do you see anything in those warnings that would give you pause in wanting Trump to unilaterally withdraw? No matter what your ideology may be, everybody I would think should want a world with the safest climate for the most people that we can get. It is morally wrong to damage our world because some people with a lot of power have that power from the wealth they make off fossil fuels they don't want regulated and don't want alternative competition.

Seriously, would you want President Trump running around making binding agreements with different nations, but not bothering to get any of them ratified by the Senate, but still expect the nation and future President's to have to carry them out?
 
taj: Sorry Moonbeam, the authors of the piece make my case for me, it's a binding agreement and as such it's a Treaty and would need to be sent for ratification. Just because the authors really, really want it to pass and think it may be detrimental to the future of the United States carrying out future commitments doesn't change the fact that it's an International Treaty.

M: The point is that what I got from the link is that an international treaty is not necessarily a treaty demanding Senate confirmation because an the definition of a treaty isn't the same domestically as it is internationally and therefore does not meet a legal requirement it be ratified by the Senate. It hose definitions do differ in the way described, it is not a treaty that requires confirmation. Legal definitions mean things.

taj: "If the United States cannot be counted on to carry out our commitments when the Presidency changes political parties, it will erode trust in future Presidents of any political party to enter into agreements with partners. Over time, this lack of reliability will relegate the United States to the periphery of international policymaking. When the world’s biggest power cannot be counted on to live up to its commitments, the center of power may shift out from under it."

This is exactly why it needed to be sent to the United States Senate by President Obama in the first place. It's a damn treaty that the majority of our country doesn't support, especially a super majority of the Senate.

M: What a majority may define as a need does not affect the legality of an action taken when as a matter of law those with those concerns have no legal standing to act to change things.

taj: Seriously, would you want President Trump running around making binding agreements with different nations, but not bothering to get any of them ratified by the Senate, but still expect the nation and future President's to have to carry them out?

M: What I want and what I feel entitled to do are different things. We either live by the rule of law or we live in a vigilante state. You open the door to a bunch of mad men determining what a sane President can do when you determine the law doesn't apply when the shoe is on the other foot. This is the danger I speak of when I refer to sacred cows. They tell us we are allowed to justify anything. This is how we create what we fear. What is good for the goose is good for the gander. Be careful of that you wish for.

The normal condition of our past is that most of our presidents aren't insane. The law is always an approximation of an attempt at justice. It can never be perfect but outside law made by a consensus of good willed people, we open the door to chaos in my opinion. I am probably more conservative than you are. The idea we can't be bound by legal definitions because of need we believe is real is a very radical notion to me.

There are all manner of people who are alive because I don't think like that. 😉
 
Thanks Moonbeam. We'll just have to continue to disagree. The rule of law calls for The Paris Climate Treaty to be sent to the Senate for ratification. Until or when it is sent to the USSC we won't have a definitive answer that would settle the question.
 
The same people that are telling you it isn't a treaty and it isn't binding are the same people that said President Trump can't stop it because it's a binding agreement until 2020. They want their Treaty cake, but they don't want to bake it.

Come on Tajjy should be easy for you...

Who is making this argument? Or do you need to clean up your mess of straw again?
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/young...licy/why-the-paris-climate-agr_b_9914606.html

"
For all the applause for the Paris Climate Agreement, current treatment of the agreement is almost certainly a violation of the treaty clause of the U.S. Constitution.

Article II, Section 2, Clause 2 of the Constitution stipulates, “The President...shall have Power, by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate, to make Treaties, provided two thirds of the Senators present concur...” Most international agreements, especially ones sharing the magnitude of the Paris Accord, are treaties in the constitutional sense and should be presented to the Senate as such. President Obama’s decision to evade the Constitution by entering into the agreement, which will have major domestic impacts, and treat the accord as anything less than a treaty is an abrogation of his oath of office."

It's a TREATY.

"The agreement also contains legally binding elements, which indisputably trigger the ratification requirement. Under the accord, nations must submit emissions reduction targets and review those targets regularly. Even Laurent Fabius, president of the international meeting that created the Paris Accord, and the European Union have acknowledged the binding legal nature of parts of the Paris instrument. Some contend that this distinction about whether the treaty is sufficiently binding is unnecessary, alleging that the Paris Agreement does not require the United States to exceed its commitments under the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change (UNFCCC), the legal grandfather of the Paris Treaty. However, when the Senate ratified the UNFCCC in 1992 it was with the explicit understanding that future fruits of climate change conferences would be submitted to the Senate for advice and consent as well."

Blog opinions aside, I find it highly unlikely a court would agree that something which requires a nation to submit emissions targets - which they are then not required to actually follow - is sufficiently binding to be considered a treaty requiring advice and consent of the Senate. If this was the legal standard, it would be quite difficult for a POTUS to do much of anything in international relations without going through the Senate.

State Department regs are meaningless here. The POTUS can change them tomorrow at his whim if he wants.
 
The resident Minister of Truth now claims that every different listed post is somehow "Heritage" and that even as he admits that the Obama Administration danced, dodged, tip toed, twirled, sashayed, lied, cheated, stole and played ping pong with ways to try to avoid being considered a treaty, the Paris Climate Treaty is still a treaty. It was a Treaty when Canada signed it, it was a Treaty when Mexico signed it and it was a Treaty when Obama attempted to sign it. You can call it a goose or a rose or anything you want. It doesn't make it so.

You seem a little confused about whether it matters what you call it. You say it matters that Canada calls it a "treaty" but then you say it doesn't matter whether you call it a goose or a rose. Hint: You were right the second time. It doesn't matter what it's called. I don't know all the criteria that a court would use to make a legal determination here, but I can guaranty you that whatever word Canada, or anyone for that matter, has chosen to apply to it, won't be among them.
 
OK, and since it's just a " non-binding agreement" President Trump has withdrawn the United States agreement to it and it's a moot point. Thank you.
You seem a little confused about whether it matters what you call it. You say it matters that Canada calls it a "treaty" but then you say it doesn't matter whether you call it a goose or a rose. Hint: You were right the second time. It doesn't matter what it's called. I don't know all the criteria that a court would use to make a legal determination here, but I can guaranty you that whatever word Canada, or anyone for that matter, has chosen to apply to it, won't be among them.
 
OK, and since it's just a " non-binding agreement" President Trump has withdrawn the United States agreement to it and it's a moot point. Thank you.

I said that in my opinion, this agreement is insufficiently binding for courts to rule it as a treaty requiring Senate approval. This is based on the fact that whatever is binding isn't substantive. It's merely aspirational. I of course might be wrong - the courts could rule the other way. But notice that I said "insufficiently binding" which leaves open the question of whether Trump could pull us out or not.

Your snarky reply, and others like this -


Suggest that you aren't someone to be taken seriously in this discussion. If you have a serious opinion on whether an agreement which requires you to "commit" to do something which you're not actually then required to do really ought to be the sort of thing subject to consent of the Senate, let me know.
 
I said that in my opinion, this agreement is insufficiently binding for courts to rule it as a treaty requiring Senate approval. This is based on the fact that whatever is binding isn't substantive. It's merely aspirational. I of course might be wrong - the courts could rule the other way. But notice that I said "insufficiently binding" which leaves open the question of whether Trump could pull us out or not.

Your snarky reply, and others like this -



Suggest that you aren't someone to be taken seriously in this discussion. If you have a serious opinion on whether an agreement which requires you to "commit" to do something which you're not actually then required to do really ought to be the sort of thing subject to consent of the Senate, let me know.
So it's not binding enough to be considered a Treaty, but it is binding enough that our country can't withdraw from it? Um ok.
 
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