Transportation chief eyes taxing miles driven

[JACKDRUID]

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Among the reasons for the gap ($8 Billion) is a switch to more fuel-efficient cars and a decrease in driving that many transportation experts believe is related to the economic downturn. Electric cars and alternative-fuel vehicles that don't use gasoline are expected to start penetrating the market in greater numbers.

blaming on increased fuel effecient / environmentally friendly automobiles...? what an idiot..

 

[halik]

Well in the future that will be the case, i think in 2008 there was a 5% decrease of gasoline usage YoY. Is the gasoline tax fixed per gallon or is it a percentage of the base?

 

[StageLeft]

They told people to drive smaller and more efficient cars. Now that people are they fvck them, this is pure genius.

 

[Viper GTS]

If the current model no longer works they have to close the gap somehow.

A weight/mile system is really the only fair way to do it given the widening disparity in gas mileage for similar weight vehicles.

Viper GTS

 

[spidey07]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
They told people to drive smaller and more efficient cars. Now that people are they fvck them, this is pure genius.

It's like hiking taxes on cigarettes saying it's good to discourage smoking. Then people stop smoking then gubment goes "what happened to our money?"

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
They told people to drive smaller and more efficient cars. Now that people are they fvck them, this is pure genius.

Nobody is fucking anybody. You still have the incentive to not buy (or buy less) gas. The reduced road tax payments are simply an artifact of a taxation method that is out of date.

Viper GTS

 

[JACKDRUID]

wow.. more stupidity ..

The system would require all cars and trucks be equipped with global satellite positioning technology, a transponder, a clock and other equipment to record how many miles a vehicle was driven, whether it was driven on highways or secondary roads, and even whether it was driven during peak traffic periods or off-peak hours.

so it will cost government 30 billion to provide a gps to everyone, then about 50% will either hack the system or simply not drive with it... net -30 billion..

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: Skoorb
They told people to drive smaller and more efficient cars. Now that people are they fvck them, this is pure genius.

Nobody is fucking anybody. You still have the incentive to not buy (or buy less) gas. The reduced road tax payments are simply an artifact of a taxation method that is out of date.

Viper GTS

But "everybody knows" that as they get a more gas efficient vehicle they save money. This directly negates savings based on its portion of any given gallon of gas.

I agree with you that the deficit has to be made up in some manner, but this is a little sour, especially since in many cases people actually do sacrifice size of their vehicle for the savings, and less size means less wear and tear on the road.

 

[dullard]

I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

 

[Jaskalas]

Originally posted by: dullard
If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

That plan won't put a GPS in everyone's vehicle.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: Skoorb
They told people to drive smaller and more efficient cars. Now that people are they fvck them, this is pure genius.

Nobody is fucking anybody. You still have the incentive to not buy (or buy less) gas. The reduced road tax payments are simply an artifact of a taxation method that is out of date.

Viper GTS

I fail to see how taxing miles driven is much different then taxing gas purchased? Besides the fact that now the goverment will have a reason to track everyone's car with a gps of some type. How else are they going to know how many miles you drive?

Another stupid idea from another stupid politician.

 

[Genx87]

Raise the gas tax duh. Right now they are taxing us per mile. The difference is we are getting more per mile and they dont like it.

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
If the current model no longer works they have to close the gap somehow.

A weight/mile system is really the only fair way to do it given the widening disparity in gas mileage for similar weight vehicles.

Viper GTS

Horseshit, raising the gas tax is the way to go if you must raise taxes. And thats what they're fucking doing anyway, raising taxes. There isn't really anything wrong with the system, except that it isn't properly indexed to inflation. There may be a disparity between some vehicles, but its not going to have a large enough overall effect to go apeshit over.

This system will cost more to administer, enforce and build then it will bring in for revenue. It will be cheated and challenged in court. It will reduce the focus on more efficient vehicles and it will increase the overall costs to citizens. So not only will they raise the tax higher to cover their "lost revenue" but they'll raise it even higher still to cover the cost of the new system to get back that "lost revenue".

If people are driving less, shouldn't the roads be falling apart less...oh wait, they robbed the fund for other pet projects let the roads get to the point they were unpassable and then through up their hands and said "What happened to all of our roads!"

Don't tell me a geo metro does the same amount of damage to roads as a suburban.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: dullard
I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

You are falsely assuming that fuel efficient = lighter. In many cases hybrid versions of vehicles weigh the same or even more than their conventional counterparts. There is no reduced road wear for their fuel efficiency.

As a rule cars have gotten substantially heavier over the last few decades. Fuel economy has gone up due to technology, but cars have generally become heavier. With hybrid, electric, and other alternate fuels gaining popularity fuel economy is increasingly detached from road wear.

The system needs to be updated, & we have the technology available to cheaply level the field.

Viper GTS

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: dullard
I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

The real secret of course is they probably stole all the extra money to pay for education or something else during a lean budget year and let the roads fall apart. My state does it, its called a "transfer to the general fund". That coupled with the lack of an inflation index is why the well ran dry, not all the fuel efficient cars "cheating" the system.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Skoorb
They told people to drive smaller and more efficient cars. Now that people are they fvck them, this is pure genius.

Seriously. I got rid of a V6 car that got 21-22 mpg around town for a 4 cylinder car that gets 29-30 mpg around town.

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
If the current model no longer works they have to close the gap somehow.

A weight/mile system is really the only fair way to do it given the widening disparity in gas mileage for similar weight vehicles.

Viper GTS

Do you by chance happen to own a Viper?

 

[Robor]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Raise the gas tax duh. Right now they are taxing us per mile. The difference is we are getting more per mile and they dont like it.

:thumbsup: Encourage more lighter and fuel efficient vehicles, don't discourage it.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
You are falsely assuming that fuel efficient = lighter. In many cases hybrid versions of vehicles weigh the same or even more than their conventional counterparts. There is no reduced road wear for their fuel efficiency.

As a rule cars have gotten substantially heavier over the last few decades. Fuel economy has gone up due to technology, but cars have generally become heavier. With hybrid, electric, and other alternate fuels gaining popularity fuel economy is increasingly detached from road wear.

The system needs to be updated, & we have the technology available to cheaply level the field.

My fuel efficient Civic (non-hybrid) is significantly lighter than many vehicles. Cars have gotten heavier, not because of hybrid or electric motors, but because the Big 3 shoved massive vehicles (mostly SUVs) down our throat for 2 decades.

You do have a point though. At some level, there is a disconnect between weight and efficiency. But, there is still a strong correlation. We could very easilly move from the heavy Hummer 2 to a reasonable weight vehicle and save tons of gas.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Don't tell me a geo metro does the same amount of damage to roads as a suburban.

Of course not. Nor did I suggest anything of the sort.

But a Honda Civic Hybrid does the same damage (or more) as the non hybrid version. Ditto with the two dozen or so other hybrid models currently available. Plug-ins will widen that gap.

Let's be a little forward thinking here. Separating road maintenance fees from gas use is inevitable. It has to happen at some point. The same people arguing against this are the people that want all cars to be hybrid or electric. Who will be left to pay the road taxes then?

Viper GTS

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: dullard
I'm against the idea. A gas tax is simple. A mileage tax is a complex, intrusive mess.

Plus, the whole logic is wrong. They say fewer miles are driven, and those miles are being driven by lighter cars (more fuel efficient). Thus, they say there is less gas tax to pay the fixed yearly amount set for larger roads and road repairs. But, if there are fewer miles driven, we don't need as much money for larger roads. If there are lighter cars driven, then we don't need as much money for road repairs. The gas tax keeps the income and the expenses fixed at the proper ratios. If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

You are falsely assuming that fuel efficient = lighter. In many cases hybrid versions of vehicles weigh the same or even more than their conventional counterparts. There is no reduced road wear for their fuel efficiency.

As a rule cars have gotten substantially heavier over the last few decades. Fuel economy has gone up due to technology, but cars have generally become heavier. With hybrid, electric, and other alternate fuels gaining popularity fuel economy is increasingly detached from road wear.

The system needs to be updated, & we have the technology available to cheaply level the field.

Viper GTS

The could always just put more water (ethanol) in our gas to force us to buy more gallons of fuel. Or just raise the gas tax.

You propose implementing a new, complicated tax system in response to the handful of people driving priuses "cheating" the system out of a few nickles of gas tax a week?

How about this, why don't we lobby for a tire tax instead. Tires wear down as they're driven so obviously the more tires you use the more miles you've driven so tax each tire sold.

 

[Viper GTS]

Originally posted by: dullard

Originally posted by: Viper GTS
You are falsely assuming that fuel efficient = lighter. In many cases hybrid versions of vehicles weigh the same or even more than their conventional counterparts. There is no reduced road wear for their fuel efficiency.

As a rule cars have gotten substantially heavier over the last few decades. Fuel economy has gone up due to technology, but cars have generally become heavier. With hybrid, electric, and other alternate fuels gaining popularity fuel economy is increasingly detached from road wear.

The system needs to be updated, & we have the technology available to cheaply level the field.

My fuel efficient Civic (non-hybrid) is significantly lighter than many vehicles. Cars have gotten heavier, not because of hybrid or electric motors, but because the Big 3 shoved massive vehicles (mostly SUVs) down our throat for 2 decades.

You do have a point though. At some level, there is a disconnect between weight and efficiency. But, there is still a strong correlation. We could very easilly move from the heavy Hummer 2 to a reasonable weight vehicle and save tons of gas.

I'm not talking about SUV's compared to Civics. I'm talking about the small, fuel efficient cars of the early 80's which weighed 2,000 lbs compared to the small, fuel efficient cars of today that weigh 3,000 lbs. The bloating due to safety features (airbags, steel bars, etc.), electronics, and all the other crap that every modern car has is astounding.

Viper GTS

 

[PingSpike]

Originally posted by: Viper GTS

Originally posted by: PingSpike

Don't tell me a geo metro does the same amount of damage to roads as a suburban.

Of course not. Nor did I suggest anything of the sort.

But a Honda Civic Hybrid does the same damage (or more) as the non hybrid version. Ditto with the two dozen or so other hybrid models currently available. Plug-ins will widen that gap.

Let's be a little forward thinking here. Separating road maintenance fees from gas use is inevitable. It has to happen at some point. The same people arguing against this are the people that want all cars to be hybrid or electric. Who will be left to pay the road taxes then?

Viper GTS

Hybrid drivers...when we raise the gas tax! Electric cars...there aren't even any on the road yet. (some guy cramming 12 car batteries into his ford feistiva doesn't really count) If that actually happens in any signifigant numbers then we could discuss a system including surcharges on electricity or something.

 

[Corn]

Originally posted by: Jaskalas

Originally posted by: dullard
If there is a shortfall, then raise the gas tax by 1 cent.

That plan won't put a GPS in everyone's vehicle.

Don't even think about speeding when that happens.

 

[nobodyknows]

Originally posted by: PingSpike

How about this, why don't we lobby for a tire tax instead. Tires wear down as they're driven so obviously the more tires you use the more miles you've driven so tax each tire sold.

But then the goverm't won't have an excuse to have a GPS in your car??