Transmitted vibration Hsu VTF-2 mk. 3 vs. VTF-1 (same source and spl)?

[mshan]

I just bought a pair of Hsu HB-1 mk. 2 speakers and am starting to research a matching sub.

I share a common wall with my neighbor, so transmitted vibration is an issue for me.

Just wondering if there should be any difference in transmitted vibration between these two subs, if I use the same source material and same overall low to modest / moderate listening levels?

Floor is concrete slab and sub would be located in front corner furthest away from common wall. First floor is basically one open space (kitchen takes up one quadrant, but is basically open to other space except for one side wall) and is probably somewhere between 4500 - 6000 cubic ft (room dimensions are say 15 x 30 plus x 10)

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

If volume is the same, then I think the difference would be how low the subs play. If you're playing source material with frequencies below 30Hz, the VTF-2 is going to be playing those louder than the smaller VTF-1.

VTF-2
18Hz / 25Hz depending on playback mode
VTF-1
25Hz / 32Hz depending on playback mode

Most of the time, there's not much output that low though. Is this for a music system or for movies?

 

[mshan]

Standard Definition DVDs and TV viewing primarily (Infocus 4805 projecting onto bare wall to about 120 inch diagonal), very casual music secondarily (got the hi fi rig upstairs).

edit: reviews I've read of VTF-1 say it sounds very "solid", but can shake the room when cranked. There are lots of comments of room shaking bass with VTF3 (now VTF-2 mk. 3), but I am wondering if this is when overall SPL level is high. That is really not an option for me.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

You could potentially annoy your neighbors with just about any subwoofer out there. Lower frequencies do travel more than higher frequencies, so if speakers / TV sound leaking between neighbors is an issue, any subwoofer is likely to be a problem.

I think the VTF-2 would have more headroom to create a bigger annoyance to neighbors, but if you'd be playing either sub at the same volume, the difference in annoyance to them would probably be very small. It could potentially be an issue if they're particularly sensitive to the frequencies that the VTF-2 plays that the VTF-1 doesn't play at the same level.

For example... if their windows resonate at 20Hz or something, then there would be a difference between the two subs playing the same overall volume when source material had that frequency in it.

I think that it's more likely that your choice of volume level and hours of operation are going to be MUCH more significant to neighbor issues than you choice of VTF-1 or VTF-2.


When I was in the dorms with my own 4805, I added some bass shakers to my seating which allowed me to feel the bass and vibrations from movies without having to crank my sub to high levels. This is not something for everyone, but I really think it added a lot to my system and it operates in a way that minimizes transmission to neighbors.

 

[mshan]

Thanks for your insights, YoYo!

Here is what Hsu Tech Support said:

"Not much difference between the two in terms of transmission to the neighbor. If your townhouse has a firewall between the units, you should be pretty isolated. When I had a townhouse, my neighbor did not hear my system.

The 12" woofer has a magnet that is more than twice as large as the 10" woofer's. It has greater acceleration capability than the 10" (just like comparing a Merc AMG which is a heavier car to a Kia which is a lighter car but much lass HP - the former can accelerate and brake better). The 12" has the advantage of going lower, and has lower distortion for the same listening level."

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Have you decided what you're going to do yet?

Also, not that HSU doesn't make good subs, but have you considered any other options?

 

[mshan]

No, not yet.

Main reason I decided to buy the Hsu HB-1 mk. 2 was that I just couldn't understand dialogue with my current Acoustic Research HC-6 system (which, I believe, was designed to be used in a fairly small room). It was so bad that I had to turn subtitles on just to understand what was being said.

I am not really concerned with room rattling or earth shaking bass, just a sub that blends in seamlessly with my new satellites, and conveys an appropriate sense of scale, bass solidity, and perception of bass power when present in sound track. VTF-1 would probably be fine for me, but price difference with VTF-2 mk. 3 is so little that just having that extra headroom there is nice.

edit: I think wall between my neighbor and I is pretty good. I never hear their tv, and really only sounds are direct conduction, such as when their front door opens and closes, when their grand children are running around upstairs, and when they close kitchen cabinets.

 

[mshan]

Hey YoYo:

I am probably going to buy a matching Hsu sub at some point.

Out of curiosity, what other subs would you recommend? (please elaborate on why you recommend a particular sub, in general, and specifically for my situation)

Thanks!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

There are some suggestions in the sticky thread. sigh... looks like I have to update those links again

Particularly in the $400-$600 range:

SVS PB10 / SVS PB12
I had a PB10 for a couple years and it was quite the 10" subwoofer.
They've now updated the drivers on those twice now (NSD-AL being the current ones), with an appreciable performance increase each time... at least according to the product descriptions. I wouldn't doubt that there were significant improvements though. There has been a lot more competition lately for subwoofers.

A big part of that is from Epik and Elemental Designs.

Elemental Designs has several in your pricerange.
http://www.edesignaudio.com/index.php?cPath=2_41
Not that the HSU and SVS are real lookers, but one complaint about the ED subs has been their appearance.

These companies all make subs with the goal of flat fequency response and good low frequency extension. Mixing sub / speaker brands is common practice, so sonically there shouldn't be a big reason to keep everything HSU. The HSU subs would both be great, but you have several options for huge black rectangular prisms to put in your room

 

[mshan]

Thanks for the links.

Do you think these subs sound better, or just represent better value for the money?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: mshan
Thanks for the links.

Do you think these subs sound better, or just represent better value for the money?

I haven't done personal comparisons and the PB10 (2 generations ago) is the only one I've used.

There are a lot of reviews out there and personal opinions for you to sort through. Craigsub is one source that I know about where he's tried to do comparisons of a wide variety of subs and attempted to rank them relative to one another with his own system.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb...?p=9164136#post9164136

Not all the options I mentioned are up there and some are previous versions, but that might be as good as you can get for someone who has used some of them and tried to rank them.

Ilkka from Home Theater Shack has some concrete measurements from subs to compare as well (more objective than subjective)

http://www.hometheatershack.co...anufacturer-model.html

Not so useful for a comparison standpoint of ones you're looking at though since they haven't been tested except for the previous generation of SVS and the next step up from HSU.

 

[mshan]

Thanks again! :thumbsup:

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

No problem.

As my boss would say, this is a good kind of problem to have. I don't think you can make a bad choice among these, so happy choosing.

I hope you're more decisive than I am about these things. I've been trying to figure out if I should replace my obsolete pre-pro for the past couple weeks and if so, I don't know what I should buy. I've probably spent 20 hours researching different options and I'm still not sure. Considering that I have a hard time deciding where to go out to eat, decisions like this are very time consuming for me.

 

[Noubourne]

Not sure if it would help or not b/c I haven't used one myself, but if shared vibration is an issue, then you may consider a Sub Dude or Gramma to reduce translation of vibration from the sub to the floor.

That said - any capable sub at the low end (which the STF-2 is) is going to push your walls a bit. As previously stated, the construction of the building will determine more than anything else how much of that vibration and shaking is translated from one unit to the next.

Also, lower frequencies travel through walls and other barriers far, far more effectively than high frequencies. The lower your sub goes, the more likely your neighbor is to notice that you're running it. Just like when a car rolls down the street with bass cranked - you hear mostly the low frequency sound - and once the door is opened - then you hear the higher frequency content more clearly.

I know that my MFW-15 pushes 85db at 17hz without much effort - well it is pretty flat down to 17hz, so whatever volume I'm at is how loud that low frequency is played. When I have a movie on, it can push much higher than that. And wow - is it ever amazing for movies. More than once this has been noticed by a neighbor, which is why I restrict my volume most of the time, and reserve big movie nights for Friday and Saturday afternoon/evening as much as possible.

With a piece of equipment like this, the answer is really to buy a house - which I am in the market for. Preferably something with a good foundation

 

[mshan]

Any thoughts on the SVS cylinder subs? (PC12-NSD or 25-31pci) http://svsound.com/products-sub-cyl.cfm

Seems like output (from port?) is upwards, instead of into one of walls, so maybe transmitted vibration is less (?)

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Both my current SVS subs are cylinders.
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/sp...2-2007/Room%20Back.JPG

I don't think that the directionality of the ports has much effect on how much vibration there is outside the room. There's certainly a lot of air movement at the ports when things get going loud, but that's only within a close proximity of the port. Across the room I would guess that it's not going to matter.

Maybe call SVS and see if they've done any testing.

 

[mshan]

How does those SVS woofers respond at low overall spl?

Is the sub nimble and dynamic at low volume, or does it need a lot of juice to really come to life?

Also, looking through your HT photos, looks like you've owned both box and cylinder subs. Any preference? (I think I read somwhere that cylinders supposed to be better because of lower resonance / internal standing waves, but that they don't have very good WAF).

edit #1: my impression that direct conduction might be the way that transmitted vibration could annoy my neighbor (based upon only types of sounds I hear, such as slamming front door, grandchildren running upstiars, and kitchen cabinets closing). That is why I was wondering about having all sub output firing into a wall that is connected (about 20 ft. away) to my neighbor's entrance / family room type area.

edit #2: just realized that the SVS PB10 you mentioned previously also has woofer and port firing forward, too. Will have to look at that one more closely and quick google search seems to suggest that it is highly recommended, just like you said.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

My experience with all the SVS subs has been that they sound good at all volumes. I don't think it needs to be cranked to make them sound good, but they certainly sound more impressive when being pushed at higher volumes. I think that's the case with sound equipment in general though taking the "louder is better sounding" effect.

I moved from a PB10-ISD to a 20-39 PC+ with a 12.2 driver. Then I added a PC-Ultra with TV-12 driver.

The PB10 was amazing in my dorm room. Probably the most visceral and tactile I've gotten from a subwoofer on its own. Once in a house, the PB10 was still impressive but I felt like making an upgrade. The room was much larger with openings to several other areas. I got a used 20-39 PC+ and it could certainly give me more impact at lower frequencies in that space. Having said that, the PB10 was still very impressive in that space. When I was demo-ing the PB10 with War of the Worlds for a prospective buyer and his friend, they thought I was crazy to be upgrading from it.

Came to my current apartment and the 20-39 just didn't seem the same as it used to. The overall cubic footage of the space is similar, but it just didn't respond the same. I didn't measure the response of it in the house, but I did at the current apartment and did my best to optimize its placement. I eventually added the PC-Ultra in an attempt to augment the 20-39's output and hopefully get rid of the directional bass I was experiencing.

Despite having my crossover set at 80Hz or lower ever since I had my first dayton sub, it's always been easy for me to tell what side of the room the bass was coming from unless the sub was placed directly in front or behind me. Those were not options in my apartment, so I wanted to try to get dual subs to help that. I'm very happy with the result of having two. My frequency response from the subs is still quite uneven, but I don't have the equipment to adjust for that yet.

Hmmm... maybe I should refer back to your questions before rambling further.

Preference for cylinder vs. box
I'm glad I've had cylinders for my last few moves. It's a lot easier to move around a ~60 pound cylinder sub than a box sub that weighs twice as much. Not only for moving in, but also for moving the sub around to optimize the position, this made checking the ~6 major possibilities for my subs in the room much easier.
Beyond moving it, I don't think I have a significant preference. My next sub upgrade will replace both the cylinders, will consist of two subs, and will be the best bang for the buck performance I can find at the time regardless of design. The only reason I'd prefer cylinders at this point is if the same performance was available at a significant weight reduction as was the case when I got my two SVS subs.

 

[mshan]

One last question:

If maximal spl is not a factor, do you think a 12 inch woofer will produce qualitatively "better" bass (e. g. more textured, nuanced, and effortless) than a 10 inch woofer in general, or does it really depend upon how well a particular manufacturer executes their design?

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

Originally posted by: mshan
One last question:

If maximal spl is not a factor, do you think a 12 inch woofer will produce qualitatively "better" bass (e. g. more textured, nuanced, and effortless) than a 10 inch woofer in general, or does it really depend upon how well a particular manufacturer executes their design?

It's all about execution as far as I'm concerned.

Size of the driver alone is no indication that it's any better than something else. Just for example, it's thought by some that a smaller woofer would tend to be quicker for music since there's less mass to get moving. It's all about specifications and design though.

Take this $766 Monitor Audio 10" sub
http://www.monitoraudiousa.com...-br/brw10/your-speaker
Terrible, terrible measurements for distortion among other things.
http://www.hometheatershack.co...nitor-audio-brw10.html

Generally a well regarded speaker company makes a very poor performing sub.

 

[Tiamat]

Quality is not limited to simply driver size. You have quality of the driver (driver area, driver total excursion, linearity of the driver, etc.), quality of the cabinet design, and amplification. All of these things need to be considered. Additionally, how you place the subwoofer in your room, and where you sit within the room will make a large difference in the bass as well. Finally, in addition to what has been said in this thread already, if your walls are paperthin, all bass frequencies will go through the wall as their wavelengths greatly exceed the absorptive properties of the wall. For mechanical vibrations, you can place the subwoofer onto something similar to the Auralex Subdude or GRAMMA. These greatly reduce the mechanical vibrations (if any) that come from the subwoofer. Many great and excellent subwoofers have superior cabinet designs which make them weigh a "ton" but also are very inert cabinets that do not vibrate much at all.

I lived in an apartment where the walls were so thin, the bass coming out of one of those portable ipod speakers was thundering through the floor because the neighbor left on vacation and forgot to disable their ipod alarm clock which was laying on the floor and who's volume was maximized.