Transgenders in sports

[cytg111]

Should a transitioned person be "allowed" to compete as the gender he/she identify as?

On any level?

Why this poll right? I feel like this is a hill where the left can spill an unnecessary amount of their own blood.

The argument is put forth that reducing testosterone, implementing HRT properly will negate any strength advantage being "born male" has.
I dont buy that argument. I'd have to see significant proof hereof and consensus in the medical field before accepting that.

What do I mean by "own blood" .. Alienating a core demographic, female, of the social democratic markup, those for whom a sub demographic voted 92% democratic while their male counterparts "only" voted 70%.

My prediction is that it is not gonna help the transgender cause when/if they begin pushing out natural born females from the gold/silver/bronze podiums, its not gonna produce empathy and understanding, quite the opposite.

Thoughts?
(cast votes are changeable, cause this is a discussion and we might learn something that changes our POV).

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

Thoughts?

You need an undecided/maybe/maybe not in the poll.

There is no one fits all here, but I'm not sure how to qualify who should or shouldn't.

Once women started competing in male sports, the whole dividing wall crumbled. Some female runners can leave males in their dust for example. And you don't want to tangle with a beach volleyballer.

I've seen quite a few M to F that would easily fit on the Babes thread and may or may not have the strength and endurance of female athletes.

No one goes through the process with the intention of having an athletic advantage.

 

[HurleyBird]

I would have appreciated more options too, but "no" was the closest.

Competing in men's sports: Yes in every case.

Competing in women's sports: Yes in certain less physically demanding sports. Yes if they avoided undergoing puberty with male hormones. No otherwise.

 

[brycejones]

It’s more complex than a simple yes/no. Factors such as when a person starts treatments like hormones can have a significant impact on any “advantage” an athlete may have.

Also there are some women who have genetic variations that mean their bodies produce more testosterone then most women. Do you ban them from competition as well because of thet advantage?

Personally I think bans at the lower amateur levels are not necessary. At higher levels of competition they may be but the rules probably have to be significantly more complex to determine if there is an “unfair” advantage or not.

The noise around this at the state level in the US has nothing to do with addressing fairness in competition as it does with just being another culture war issue conservatives can use to beat up on someone who is different.

Good read on the subject from someone who does research in this area:

Wave Of Bills To Block Trans Athletes Has No Basis In Science, Researcher Says

Legislation in several states would limit or prohibit transgender women from competing in women's athletics. An expert on sex differences in athletes says the bills aren't rooted in science.

www.npr.org

 

[Lost_in_the_HTTP]

The bigger issue is that sports overall have lost the focus on fitness and team building. It's all about money now, even at the formerly so called amateur levels.

 

[JEDI]

- men competing in woman sports = no.
more muscle = higher chance winning especially weight lifting sports.
unfair advantage, even if taking testosterone reducement therapy.
the muscle is already there.

- woman competing in men's sport = yes.
even in running, men have more leg muscle than women.

 

[cytg111]

You need an undecided/maybe/maybe not in the poll.

There is no one fits all here, but I'm not sure how to qualify who should or shouldn't.

Once women started competing in male sports, the whole dividing wall crumbled. Some female runners can leave males in their dust for example. And you don't want to tangle with a beach volleyballer.

I've seen quite a few M to F that would easily fit on the Babes thread and may or may not have the strength and endurance of female athletes.

No one goes through the process with the intention of having an athletic advantage.

Added undecided

 

[brycejones]

- men competing in woman sports = no.
more muscle = higher chance winning especially weight lifting sports.
unfair advantage, even if taking testosterone reducement therapy.
the muscle is already there.

- woman competing in men's sport = yes.
even in running, men have more leg muscle than women.

Take a look at the NPR story I linked to.

 

[cytg111]

It’s more complex than a simple yes/no. Factors such as when a person starts treatments like hormones can have a significant impact on any “advantage” an athlete may have.

Also there are some women who have genetic variations that mean their bodies produce more testosterone then most women. Do you ban them from competition as well because of thet advantage?

Personally I think bans at the lower amateur levels are not necessary. At higher levels of competition they may be but the rules probably have to be significantly more complex to determine if there is an “unfair” advantage or not.

The noise around this at the state level in the US has nothing to do with addressing fairness in competition as it does with just being another culture war issue conservatives can use to beat up on someone who is different.

Good read on the subject from someone who does research in this area:

Wave Of Bills To Block Trans Athletes Has No Basis In Science, Researcher Says

Legislation in several states would limit or prohibit transgender women from competing in women's athletics. An expert on sex differences in athletes says the bills aren't rooted in science.

www.npr.org

Yep yep and yep.
Also, its exactly the conservative culture war that makes stuff like this hard to debate openly and honestly.
Where does an XXY or XYY fit in this narrative? There is a huge difference in what men produce in terms of testosterone and other growth factors too.


Acromegaly

Mistake almost killed Nikolai Valuev, giant forever faces brain tumor fears

Former world heavyweight champion and man mountain Nikolai Valuevopened up about his continued battle with a brain tumor.

www.worldboxingnews.net

I mean... He competed in the top ranks!

 

[cytg111]

Take a look at the NPR story I linked to.

From the article :

"You know, it's interesting because in the field of sports, there's a long history of discrimination that targets women that look different. Again, the science of whether testosterone in real life is actually providing an advantage in competition is not clearly established. But more disturbingly is that all these rules at the elite level have affected women — not all women, but women with a Y chromosome. And often, it's triggered by women who look different. So I'm a little disturbed to hear that these issues at the elite level are now reaching the middle and high schools and colleges."

As someone who in his younger youth dipped his toes in the testosterone fountain - in the name of science - ... Yea, I dare anyone to shoot up and tell me it doesnt give you an "edge" 😉.

 

[pauldun170]

I'll start with a little survey
Do any of you guys actually personally know any transgender kids? Have you been around any?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as female?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as male?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as female AND is taking hormone treatments?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as male AND is taking hormone treatments?

 

[Brainonska511]

I'll start with a little survey
Do any of you guys actually personally know any transgender kids? Have you been around any?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as female?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as male?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as female AND is taking hormone treatments?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as male AND is taking hormone treatments?

Who cares about facts and real people when we can create imaginary boogie people to rail against?

 

[Leeea]

It depends on why we have sports.


If sports are for teaching children community, teamwork, and social skills of course they should be inclusive to everyone, including transgender students.


If sports are about winning, dividing, and teaching students the end justifies the means it only makes sense to lie and embrace bigotry to give your child an edge.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Should a transitioned person be "allowed" to compete as the gender he/she identify as?

On any level?

Why this poll right? I feel like this is a hill where the left can spill an unnecessary amount of their own blood.

The argument is put forth that reducing testosterone, implementing HRT properly will negate any strength advantage being "born male" has.
I dont buy that argument. I'd have to see significant proof hereof and consensus in the medical field before accepting that.

What do I mean by "own blood" .. Alienating a core demographic, female, of the social democratic markup, those for whom a sub demographic voted 92% democratic while their male counterparts "only" voted 70%.

My prediction is that it is not gonna help the transgender cause when/if they begin pushing out natural born females from the gold/silver/bronze podiums, its not gonna produce empathy and understanding, quite the opposite.

Thoughts?
(cast votes are changeable, cause this is a discussion and we might learn something that changes our POV).


I would also like for some1 to NOT post in this thread.

You missed the bigger point here. The government is legislating what a private organization can and cannot do. The sports governing body most likely already agrees with the father in this case. This is republican BIG GOVERNMENT dictating what private organizations can and cannot do.

The experts and communities who work with these children have already made the correct decision. This is republican law makers overriding their freedom to run their sports activities to implement bigotry and hate.


This is the government telling sports leagues who can and cannot compete. The real question is, do you support big government dictating to sports leagues who can and cannot play?

 

[nOOky]

I guess I don't know enough about the subject to have an educated opinion. However after Googling a bit some of the basic differences between a male and a female I'm not sure if they can simply be dismissed by hormone therapy. For example the female hip structure is designed to accommodate birthing a child, the male is not. Women and men deposit fat in different places, their heart rates and blood pressure are generally different based on gender. Males have higher bone density and bone mass. Men's lungs are typically larger and have more airway mass than women for the same body size.

So that was after a quick google search. Do any of the differences I listed affect athletic performance at the very top level of a sport? In my mind I would think so, but my opinion could change if there has been extensive studies done to discount these differences.

 

[cytg111]

I'll start with a little survey
Do any of you guys actually personally know any transgender kids? Have you been around any?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as female?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as male?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as female AND is taking hormone treatments?
Have you ever met a transgender kid who identifies as male AND is taking hormone treatments?

Yea, a couple. Both identify as female and taking hormones, one of them getting ready for the big one. No question in my mind they are doing whats right for them, in their quest to be happy. 100%.

 

[pauldun170]

I guess I don't know enough about the subject to have an educated opinion. However after Googling a bit some of the basic differences between a male and a female I'm not sure if they can simply be dismissed by hormone therapy. For example the female hip structure is designed to accommodate birthing a child, the male is not. Women and men deposit fat in different places, their heart rates and blood pressure are generally different based on gender. Males have higher bone density and bone mass. Men's lungs are typically larger and have more airway mass than women for the same body size.

So that was after a quick google search. Do any of the differences I listed affect athletic performance at the very top level of a sport? In my mind I would think so, but my opinion could change if there has been extensive studies done to discount these differences.

What have you read on adolescents?
The only men in middle school and high school are the people that get paid to work there.
It's why its called Girls track and Boys Track.

 

[cytg111]

It depends on why we have sports.


If sports are for teaching children community, teamwork, and social skills of course they should be inclusive to everyone, including transgender students.


If sports are about winning, dividing, and teaching students the end justifies the means it only makes sense to lie and embrace bigotry to give your child an edge.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------





You missed the bigger point here. The government is legislating what a private organization can and cannot do. The sports governing body most likely already agrees with the father in this case. This is republican BIG GOVERNMENT dictating what private organizations can and cannot do.

The experts and communities who work with these children have already made the correct decision. This is republican law makers overriding their freedom to run their sports activities to implement bigotry and hate.


This is the government telling sports leagues who can and cannot compete. The real question is, do you support big government dictating to sports leagues who can and cannot play?

Naw, lets fuck the government for a second, filter all that "politics" bs out for a second.

Another example, weight classes, in ie. boxing... in an effort to keep the fight "fair" even within the same gender.

In another decade, perhaps we will all be able to "bio hack" ourselves with CRISPR to get those competitive genes ourselves ... is that "cheating" ? Who decides when the GATTACA lottery is fair enough to enter a division?

 

[pauldun170]

Yea, a couple. Both identify as female and taking hormones, one of them getting ready for the big one. No question in my mind they are doing whats right for them, in their quest to be happy. 100%.

If they were to express interest in joining girls sports, do you think they would have unfair advantage over the trained athletes already on the team?
Would the fact that her sex is male be an obstacle that no female could overcome even through training?

 

[cytg111]

If they were to express interest in joining girls sports, do you think they would have unfair advantage over the trained athletes already on the team?
Would the fact that her sex is male be an obstacle that no female could overcome even through training?

Sorry got that the wrong way ... identify as male.

But for the thought experiment lets roll with it.
Yea. A female anatomy juiced up on testosterone? That will give a significant edge, but hey, maybe they were so far behind in the GATTACA lottery to begin with so that a natural well GATTACA gifted female would be able to beat them.
In my mind its all about the percentages. Imagine two bell curves, now overlap them. The one to the right the person on test and the left is natural.

I mean, we are all men in this thread so far right? Non of us are going to get in a cage with Amanda Nunes right?

I think Serena Williams herself spoke out against those who wished to see her compete vs. some of the men.



Anyway, the more I think about this the clearer it gets that there is no solution to this if the goal is to make everyone happy. I dont see it 🙁.

 

[Leeea]

Another example, weight classes, in ie. boxing... in an effort to keep the fight "fair" even within the same gender.

That is a good example. Specifically, when was the last time any non-USSR government dictated to the boxing league what the weight classes will be and who is allowed to compete in each class?

Naw, lets fuck the government for a second, filter all that "politics" bs out for a second.

It is in the politics of all this that people are being harmed. Remove the political aspect of this, and it turns into a non-issue. Each sports league decides for itself what the goals of the league are.

This is not about competition at all. That is the giant red herring in this debate. This is about dictating to schools and leagues what the purpose of their sports programs are.

In another decade, perhaps we will all be able to "bio hack" ourselves with CRISPR to get those competitive genes ourselves ... is that "cheating" ? Who decides when the GATTACA lottery is fair enough to enter a division?

Nature has been doing that since long before we were born:

Site no longer available

 

[pauldun170]

Sorry got that the wrong way ... identify as male.

But for the thought experiment lets roll with it.
Yea. A female anatomy juiced up on testosterone? That will give a significant edge, but hey, maybe they were so far behind in the GATTACA lottery to begin with so that a natural well GATTACA gifted female would be able to beat them.
In my mind its all about the percentages. Imagine two bell curves, now overlap them. The one to the right the person on test and the left is natural.

I mean, we are all men in this thread so far right? Non of us are going to get in a cage with Amanda Nunes right?

I think Serena Williams herself spoke out against those who wished to see her compete vs. some of the men.



Anyway, the more I think about this the clearer it gets that there is no solution to this if the goal is to make everyone happy. I dont see it 🙁.

I think the key thing here is that this discussion is on adolescents playing school sports.
People get lost in discussion about adult sports at the college and professional level.

 

[Indus]

I am married to a transitioned woman. Of all sports.. she likes volleyball the best.

With that in mind and seeing as how she loves a game of pick up volleyball.. I agree on yes to trans women competing but with limitations of how many per team to even the odds (sort of like each volleyball team is allowed 1 libero).

 

[pauldun170]

I am married to a transitioned woman. Of all sports.. she likes volleyball the best.

With that in mind and seeing as how she loves a game of pick up volleyball.. I agree on yes to trans women competing but with limitations of how many per team to even the odds (sort of like each volleyball team is allowed 1 libero).

How could you not like Volleyball?
Everyone loves volleyball
(Resist urge to search for Women's Volleyball on youtube and google )

edit - Damn you. Resistance was futile

 

[nOOky]

I think the key thing here is that this discussion is on adolescents playing school sports.
People get lost in discussion about adult sports at the college and professional level.

I'm guilty of that, however the thread title and poll don't specifically call that out, just the link, so I assumed it was a free for all gender topic,

 

[pauldun170]

I'm guilty of that, however the thread title and poll don't specifically call that out, just the link, so I assumed it was a free for all gender topic,

Just to point it out,
The Video in the post states its about interscholastic athletic contests.
This https://house.mo.gov/Bill.aspx?bill=HJR53&year=2021&code=R
HJR 53 - Proposes a constitutional amendment to protect the integrity of interscholastic athletic contests