Transgender Children?

[Dr. Zaus]

This woman says NO - and I agree, kids just don't have the capacity to understand the world they will be facing.

https://youtu.be/QkaQ6_Q6owk

 

[pcgeek11]

I'm with you. I think it is preposterous to think that they do.

Now we will get some saying how somebody knew they were a transgender at the tender age of 4 or 5 years old. Which is ridiculous.

 

[Murloc]

I think it should be hands off until 18. Who knows, at such young ages children might confuse being gay with being trans.
Also I've read that many people in that sector change idea, with teen-agers and children it must be even worse.
What if some of them are thinking they're trans just because they have body issues with becoming a woman when that's not the actual issue, and parents and doctors go all in and get invested in this idea, damaging their chances of just growing out of the issue in the process?

The counter argument is that you should just suspend puberty until a final decision is reached, but the issue is that doing that may change the decision itself.

 

[Newbian]

Unfortunately you will find some people who will force their beliefs, however wrong, on the young and they suffer because they know no better.

This is no different then racism and religion and this is just the newest form really.

 

[sandorski]

There are some good arguments as to why they should. I won't go into those, but I will just say that if someone is Transgender, they are that way from Birth. Their perspective and experience is going to be different and as such we who have not experienced such a state should be more cautious with just deciding what and when they should do something about the situation. That said, in time it will become clearer as to how to approach the issues, then fewer mistakes will occur and Trans people will have a much better transition.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

There are some good arguments as to why they should. I won't go into those, but I will just say that if someone is Transgender, they are that way from Birth. Their perspective and experience is going to be different and as such we who have not experienced such a state should be more cautious with just deciding what and when they should do something about the situation. That said, in time it will become clearer as to how to approach the issues, then fewer mistakes will occur and Trans people will have a much better transition.

I disagree, gender is a sociological construct no one is born a gender, they have it assigned to them by society based on plumbing.

That doesn't mean that folks who seek gender reassignment aren't 100% authentic. It just means all identity is more socially contingent than we feel comfortable admitting.

However, it seems, even if you take the other side on this issue - kids should not be getting operated on/drugs.

 

[sandorski]

I disagree, gender is a sociological construct no one is born a gender, they have it assigned to them by society based on plumbing.

That doesn't mean that folks who seek gender reassignment aren't 100% authentic. It just means all identity is more socially contingent than we feel comfortable admitting.

However, it seems, even if you take the other side on this issue - kids should not be getting operated on/drugs.

Like I said, in time things will become clearer.

 

[sttubs]

I have a transgender daughter. She decided at the age of 17 to dress the part, but she said growing up things were "off" as far as her feelings and thoughts.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

I mean sorry that who she is, is not better tolerated in society.

Here are people whose authentic sense of self also leads to poor outcomes:

http://www.cracked.com/personal-exp...isturbingly-large-pro-anorexia-community.html

 

[MongGrel]

Was a pretty common thing in the Roman Republic, got me.

Seems right along Trump guidlines, actually.

Anyone that believes Trump is some born again evangelist is ridiculous to begin with.

Yes that does relate to the thread on the fake outrage.

* Helen Mirren was pretty hot back in the day *

 

[who?]

Parents who tried not to impose gender stereotypes on their children found that boys played with toy guns and trucks and girls played with dolls of their own free will even when offered all types of toys. Therefore there is such a thing as gender.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Parents who tried not to impose gender stereotypes on their children found that boys played with toy guns and trucks and girls played with dolls of their own free will even when offered all types of toys. Therefore there is such a thing as gender.

Or social influence is stronger than what parents can passively overcome.

 

[cbrunny]

There are some good arguments as to why they should. I won't go into those, but I will just say that if someone is Transgender, they are that way from Birth. Their perspective and experience is going to be different and as such we who have not experienced such a state should be more cautious with just deciding what and when they should do something about the situation. That said, in time it will become clearer as to how to approach the issues, then fewer mistakes will occur and Trans people will have a much better transition.

this kind of makes sense to me. if it is biological it is likely to have occurred at birth.

I've said before on AT and I'm sure I'll say again. My opinion on the matter:
1. My opinion doesn't matter. I'm not transgender nor do I know anyone that is (that I know of).
2. I don't really care what an individual wants to do with themselves. Fill your boots.
3. Science/biology/anthropology/medicine/neurologists/psych does not know enough about gender or transgender generally to know one way or another if transgender is a construct or a biological reality. Likewise, in both cases, they do not know with certainty if remaining the same gender or trans-ing is good or bad in long term.
4. I'm not convinced that transgender is anything more than mental illness and I have major ethical concerns with children being exposed to the concepts of transgender in specific ways. As somewhat of an example, there are medical cases where people amputate their own arms because they strongly feel like they should not have the arm. Medicine diagnoses these individuals with a mental illness, yet they persist and many built home amputation machines to cut off their own limbs. Yes gender is different. I'm not an expert. Like I said, my opinion is meaningless.
5. We should all just calm the fuck down about it and move on with your day. Just treat everyone civilly and this is not an issue. Regardless of the why or how or good or bad, transpeople are people, and as such deserve the life, liberty, and happiness that the rest of us take for granted.

 

[disappoint]

Was a pretty common thing in the Roman Republic, got me.



Seems right along Trump guidlines, actually.

Anyone that believes Trump is some born again evangelist is ridiculous to begin with.

Yes that does relate to the thread on the fake outrage.

* Helen Mirren was pretty hot back in the day *

Seriously? You invoke Trump in a thread about transgender? You seem to be stuck on hating Trump as if you have a one track mind. A one track mind bent on hate no less. I mean if you're going to have a one track mind make it about something nice like rainbows or flowers. Or fast cars. Unicorns even, yeah it doesn't even have to be something real but at least not about hate. This hating on Trump shtick of yours is getting old.

 

[nakedfrog]

Pretty good article on it in National Geographic.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

"Next step: thinking about hormone blockers that suppress puberty."

This is so sad, our society is sick we have a deep infection.

 

[jackstar7]

"Next step: thinking about hormone blockers that suppress puberty."

This is so sad, our society is sick we have a deep infection.

Can you expand on that? I just want to be sure I understand where you're coming from before I respond further.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Can you expand on that? I just want to be sure I understand where you're coming from before I respond further.

Yes: my considered opinion is that
0) such drugs cut off access to /growth of a sexual limb, this is effectively a kind of genitalia mutilation.

1) seeking the mutilation (in this case chemical) of children with gender dysmorphiadoes not occur as would be expected, but varies by nation and culture within a nation.

2) does not occur as would be expected, but varies by nation and culture within a nation. is culturally bound

Therefore:

3)seeking the mutilation of children with gender dysmorphia is culturally bound.

4)That which is culturally bound and harmful is a societal sickness

5) mutilation of children with gender dysmorphia is harmful.

Therefore:

6) drugs for children with gender dysmorphia is a societal sickness.


I don't blame anyone for having gender dismorphia; Everyone needs acceptance and love, particularly those suffering from such illness.

Treatment may well be exactly as prescribed-reassignment.

But this hypotheses is never tested because on the right they hate people with this illness; on the left they want to pretend that mutilation is "OK".

It's not - it's not studied, it's relatively not safe.

It's very sad that we pretend it is - so much so that it is representative of a sick society with a deep infection.

 

[jackstar7]

Glad that I asked. I really misunderstood to what you were referring.

I can't reconcile your use of illness in relation to gender dismorphia. What if gender simply isn't tied to biology and forcing the connection on this rather small percentage of the population that doesn't conform is just a form of mental abuse/bullying? Aren't there enough people to demonstrate far more variety in the constructs of gender? And what harm does it do for them to be less rigid?

 

[sandorski]

Yes: my considered opinion is that
0) such drugs cut off access to /growth of a sexual limb, this is effectively a kind of genitalia mutilation.

1) seeking the mutilation (in this case chemical) of children with gender dysmorphiadoes not occur as would be expected, but varies by nation and culture within a nation.

2) does not occur as would be expected, but varies by nation and culture within a nation. is culturally bound

Therefore:

3)seeking the mutilation of children with gender dysmorphia is culturally bound.

4)That which is culturally bound and harmful is a societal sickness

5) mutilation of children with gender dysmorphia is harmful.

Therefore:

6) drugs for children with gender dysmorphia is a societal sickness.


I don't blame anyone for having gender dismorphia; Everyone needs acceptance and love, particularly those suffering from such illness.

Treatment may well be exactly as prescribed-reassignment.

But this hypotheses is never tested because on the right they hate people with this illness; on the left they want to pretend that mutilation is "OK".

It's not - it's not studied, it's relatively not safe.

It's very sad that we pretend it is - so much so that it is representative of a sick society with a deep infection.

It should be noted then when a Trans person begins to transition, they go through Puberty again. Which is one reason why blocking Puberty and especially early transition are the issues they are. Is a Society sick for wanting to help people to become themselves? I think you are relying too much on your experience in order to judge the worthiness of Trans peoples experiences. That is likely to prove to be the real sickness of Society.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

It should be noted then when a Trans person begins to transition, they go through Puberty again. Which is one reason why blocking Puberty and especially early transition are the issues they are. Is a Society sick for wanting to help people to become themselves? I think you are relying too much on your experience in order to judge the worthiness of Trans peoples experiences. That is likely to prove to be the real sickness of Society.

It is the real sickness.

To be clear: if society were less sick then we would accept people for whatever roles they want to fill; thus people would not feel the need to be mutilated so as to conform to the outward expressions (bodily gender) needed to meet the social expectations of what a "woman" or "man" should look like.

Glad that I asked. I really misunderstood to what you were referring.

I can't reconcile your use of illness in relation to gender dismorphia. What if gender simply isn't tied to biology and forcing the connection on this rather small percentage of the population that doesn't conform is just a form of mental abuse/bullying? Aren't there enough people to demonstrate far more variety in the constructs of gender? And what harm does it do for them to be less rigid?

If gender isn't tied to biology then it is tied to society.

If it's tied to society, making people feel like their bodies need to be mutilated to be authentic in our society, is a sickness.

I dismiss out of hand the magical thinking needed to say that a "woman's" soul can be trapped in a man's body.


I also accept out of hand that this is precisely what it can authentically feel like.

Trans people are not wrong for experiencing themselves as such, society and it's lack of acceptance and sick need for gender binaries are what is wrong.

If we fixed that we wouldn't have to even ask.

 

[jackstar7]

If gender isn't tied to biology then it is tied to society.

If it's tied to society, making people feel like their bodies need to be mutilated to be authentic in our society, is a sickness.

I dismiss out of hand the magical thinking needed to say that a "woman's" soul can be trapped in a man's body.


I also accept out of hand that this is precisely what it can authentically feel like.

Trans people are not wrong for experiencing themselves as such, society and it's lack of acceptance and sick need for gender binaries are what is wrong.

If we fixed that we wouldn't have to even ask.

Well, I said simply tied to biology... like maybe it's more complex than just one or the other... you know... for starters.

 

[Dr. Zaus]

Well, I said simply tied to biology... like maybe it's more complex than just one or the other... you know... for starters.

Sure, there is no question that it's a complex mix of sociological and bio-psychological forces.

We can test this to some degree, we can study cultures with what we would call blended gender roles, we can also study cultures which allow "two spirited" people to choose a different gender role.

So, we known gender roles are inconsistent, a desire to change roles occurs at times, but that there are no reports of people having gender dysmorphia and thus, for example, over consuming soy or hops (both major estrogenics).

This doesn't prove anything for sure, but it changes the best available balance of evidence.

I love trans people and am sure they are trying to be authentic - but in societies that are not sick in this way, people do not chemically mutilate themselves in order to be accepted into a gendered binary.

To me it's another ideological appeal to an unscientific belief system (in this case the magically thinking of 'woman/man' minds) that ends up justifying mutilation - while done with a more loving intent, I see a common vector behind mutilating children because of ideological demands for "proper" gender roles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles_among_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North_America

 

[cbrunny]

well are we talking about gender roles or gender?

 

[nakedfrog]

Sure, there is no question that it's a complex mix of sociological and bio-psychological forces.

We can test this to some degree, we can study cultures with what we would call blended gender roles, we can also study cultures which allow "two spirited" people to choose a different gender role.

So, we known gender roles are inconsistent, a desire to change roles occurs at times, but that there are no reports of people having gender dysmorphia and thus, for example, over consuming soy or hops (both major estrogenics).

This doesn't prove anything for sure, but it changes the best available balance of evidence.

I love trans people and am sure they are trying to be authentic - but in societies that are not sick in this way, people do not chemically mutilate themselves in order to be accepted into a gendered binary.

To me it's another ideological appeal to an unscientific belief system (in this case the magically thinking of 'woman/man' minds) that ends up justifying mutilation - while done with a more loving intent, I see a common vector behind mutilating children because of ideological demands for "proper" gender roles.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_roles_among_the_indigenous_peoples_of_North_America

I don't believe you read the entire article.

Many of us learned in high school biology that sex chromosomes determine a baby’s sex, full stop: XX means it’s a girl; XY means it’s a boy. But on occasion, XX and XY don’t tell the whole story.

Today we know that the various elements of what we consider “male” and “female” don’t always line up neatly, with all the XXs—complete with ovaries, vagina, estrogen, female gender identity, and feminine behavior—on one side and all the XYs—testes, penis, testosterone, male gender identity, and masculine behavior—on the other. It’s possible to be XX and mostly male in terms of anatomy, physiology, and psychology, just as it’s possible to be XY and mostly female.

Each embryo starts out with a pair of primitive organs, the proto-gonads, that develop into male or female gonads at about six to eight weeks. Sex differentiation is usually set in motion by a gene on the Y chromosome, the SRY gene, that makes the proto-gonads turn into testes. The testes then secrete testosterone and other male hormones (collectively called androgens), and the fetus develops a prostate, scrotum, and penis. Without the SRY gene, the proto-gonads become ovaries that secrete estrogen, and the fetus develops female anatomy (uterus, vagina, and clitoris).

But the SRY gene’s function isn’t always straightforward. The gene might be missing or dysfunctional, leading to an XY embryo that fails to develop male anatomy and is identified at birth as a girl. Or it might show up on the X chromosome, leading to an XX embryo that does develop male anatomy and is identified at birth as a boy.

Genetic variations can occur that are unrelated to the SRY gene, such as complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (CAIS), in which an XY embryo’s cells respond minimally, if at all, to the signals of male hormones. Even though the proto-gonads become testes and the fetus produces androgens, male genitals don’t develop. The baby looks female, with a clitoris and vagina, and in most cases will grow up feeling herself to be a girl.

Which is this baby, then? Is she the girl she believes herself to be? Or, because of her XY chromosomes—not to mention the testes in her abdomen—is she “really” male?

It also discusses other cultures with third-genders.
And it's my understanding that the ladyboys in Thailand do indeed consume herbs with potent phytoestrogens to help them appear more feminine.