Tracking People Via Cell Phone - Courts upheld as legal

[Suspicious-Teach8788]

WTF is with people thinking so many phones have GPSes. Not many do. Who has a GPS in their phone, please raise their hands. N95 users? N82 users? How many of you are there? Not that many. Seriously. The way they get you is by cell tower triangulation and it's NOT THAT ACCURATE. Ever try Google Maps and the Find your Location thing? Trust me, it's off quite a bit at times. You know those people who always get stranded in snow storms? They did TV show on one of them and cell tower triangulation was used, but you're still dealing with a 1 mile radius to search in..

If E-911 used GPS in your phone, then your phone would have a damn GPS also. They don't just embed GPS chips free of cost into all the crap phones you guys see on TV.

 

[Nebor]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I can find you on your phone with GPS turned off or a phone that doesn't have GPS within 90 meters in 3 seconds or less, then with your name, address and all account information you provided to your carrier plus all info the government has on you within 20 seconds.

No, you cant.

Yes, he can. Any cell phone can be traced via triangulation to a relatively small area. It's common practice in law enforcement now to use that signal and flood the area with patrol cars in order to find the source of the call. It works most of the time.

Like I said, your local police station has all the equipment necessary to track you if you have a cell phone on. It could be a Nokia from 1997, they could still track it just as effectively.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: Nebor

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: dmcowen674
I can find you on your phone with GPS turned off or a phone that doesn't have GPS within 90 meters in 3 seconds or less, then with your name, address and all account information you provided to your carrier plus all info the government has on you within 20 seconds.

No, you cant.

Yes, he can. Any cell phone can be traced via triangulation to a relatively small area. It's common practice in law enforcement now to use that signal and flood the area with patrol cars in order to find the source of the call. It works most of the time.

Like I said, your local police station has all the equipment necessary to track you if you have a cell phone on. It could be a Nokia from 1997, they could still track it just as effectively.

Back in 2004 I tracked a couple from Kansas when their cell phone signal popped up in Orlando Florida area. They were in the middle of a child custody battle and one of them had taken the child out of state. I guided the Police and they got them in ten minutes.

When I was installing the system in Louisiana one of my drivers got stuck in the swamp. I guided a police officer and he found him. That same driver also had an accident on I-10 and I was able to guide responding units to the scene of the accident.

Nope according to a P&N technology expert must be a figment of my imagination as usual.

 

[blackangst1]

Man oh man so much crap.

First on tracing signals. Lets assume the phone is on, but not being used. Every so often it sends pings to find the nearest tower. According to current law, those pings are considered the same as call records. Therefore, a subpoena must be issued to retrieve it. Also, cell towers only keep about 24 hours worth of pings. Second, to triangulate, there must be...get this...three towers recieving signal (get the TRIANGLulate part?). this is very common is well covered areas. This is how towers know which tower to pass the signal to should you travel. Now, typical cell phone towers can reach about 20 miles, even less in city areas. Signals within towers typically overlap about 5 miles, less in city areas. The phone will ping all three towers, thus how triangulation occurs. But, getting an exact spot is pretty difficult without GPS. In a remote area? If youre being covered by one tower, good luck. Ping times are NOT indicitive of distance. Same as network pings.

With GPS, we are now in Phase II of e911. The standard for Phase II is 50-300 meters. Thats WITH GPS.

Now lets throw in my earlier scenario. Im a bad guy, and the FBI/CIA/local police/whoever is looking for me. Obviously Im not going to have a contract with a phone company. Unless, of course, Im an idiot. I walk into Wal Mart, pick up a GoPhone and a refillable minutes card, pay with cash, and activate. How is it traceable to me?

How would the police know WHERE I bought my phone, if I bought my phone, or how I bought my phone? Even if they knew where I bought it, how do they get record of what phone I bought? ESN's arent tracked, and I paid cash. Without THAT, they cant trace me. At all.

Please explain.

edit: I will say, for the average user it's probably fairly easy to track; however, for someone who doesnt want to be tracked, or is in a position of needing to be tracked, its just as easy to not be. Thats my whole point.

Are you going to provide a link to your assertion: "P&Nrs said would never happen"??? Free 10 bucks Dave! I'll paypal it right now! Or are you trolling again?

 

[techs]

The goal of the neo-cons is to lojack all of us.

 

[Nebor]

The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Nebor
The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

And, for the most part, I agree. It's like computer data. It's easy to get caught with compromising data if precautions arent taken. But, with a little bit of research, not even the NSA can catch you. Free market at its best.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Nebor
The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

And, for the most part, I agree. It's like computer data. It's easy to get caught with compromising data if precautions arent taken. But, with a little bit of research, not even the NSA can catch you. Free market at its best.

Hehe, whatever you say, man. I'm not saying national intelligence agencies are all powerful or anything, but something tells me it would take a little bit more than some random gomer with a little bit of Internet research to beat them at their own game.

That said, the point you guys seem to be missing is that the danger here isn't technological, it's legal. The ABILITY to spy on everyone 24/7 isn't the same as having the authorization to do so. If privacy relies on the ability of every Joe Sixpack outwitting the NSA, we're doomed. If privacy relies on the inability of the government to spy on you unless they have to present their case to an impartial federal judge, it doesn't really matter WHAT direction technology goes...we're protected.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Nebor
The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

And, for the most part, I agree. It's like computer data. It's easy to get caught with compromising data if precautions arent taken. But, with a little bit of research, not even the NSA can catch you. Free market at its best.

Hehe, whatever you say, man. I'm not saying national intelligence agencies are all powerful or anything, but something tells me it would take a little bit more than some random gomer with a little bit of Internet research to beat them at their own game.

That said, the point you guys seem to be missing is that the danger here isn't technological, it's legal. The ABILITY to spy on everyone 24/7 isn't the same as having the authorization to do so. If privacy relies on the ability of every Joe Sixpack outwitting the NSA, we're doomed. If privacy relies on the inability of the government to spy on you unless they have to present their case to an impartial federal judge, it doesn't really matter WHAT direction technology goes...we're protected.

Just FYI...Im not some random gamer with a knowledge of Google You can take that to the bank

and I agree with you on your 2nd paragraph. QFT

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Nebor
The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

And, for the most part, I agree. It's like computer data. It's easy to get caught with compromising data if precautions arent taken. But, with a little bit of research, not even the NSA can catch you. Free market at its best.

Hehe, whatever you say, man. I'm not saying national intelligence agencies are all powerful or anything, but something tells me it would take a little bit more than some random gomer with a little bit of Internet research to beat them at their own game.

That said, the point you guys seem to be missing is that the danger here isn't technological, it's legal. The ABILITY to spy on everyone 24/7 isn't the same as having the authorization to do so. If privacy relies on the ability of every Joe Sixpack outwitting the NSA, we're doomed. If privacy relies on the inability of the government to spy on you unless they have to present their case to an impartial federal judge, it doesn't really matter WHAT direction technology goes...we're protected.

Just FYI...Im not some random gamer with a knowledge of Google You can take that to the bank

and I agree with you on your 2nd paragraph. QFT

Hey, this is the Internet, who am I to suggest you aren't James Bond or something But I wasn't suggesting YOU were some random gomer, you did however seem to suggest that anyone can beat the NSA with a little bit of research. I don't think that's especially true, which is why the legal protections are important.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: Nebor
The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

And, for the most part, I agree. It's like computer data. It's easy to get caught with compromising data if precautions arent taken. But, with a little bit of research, not even the NSA can catch you. Free market at its best.

Hehe, whatever you say, man. I'm not saying national intelligence agencies are all powerful or anything, but something tells me it would take a little bit more than some random gomer with a little bit of Internet research to beat them at their own game.

That said, the point you guys seem to be missing is that the danger here isn't technological, it's legal. The ABILITY to spy on everyone 24/7 isn't the same as having the authorization to do so. If privacy relies on the ability of every Joe Sixpack outwitting the NSA, we're doomed. If privacy relies on the inability of the government to spy on you unless they have to present their case to an impartial federal judge, it doesn't really matter WHAT direction technology goes...we're protected.

Just FYI...Im not some random gamer with a knowledge of Google You can take that to the bank

and I agree with you on your 2nd paragraph. QFT

Hey, this is the Internet, who am I to suggest you aren't James Bond or something But I wasn't suggesting YOU were some random gomer, you did however seem to suggest that anyone can beat the NSA with a little bit of research. I don't think that's especially true, which is why the legal protections are important.

:thumbsup:

 

[heyheybooboo]

Originally posted by: Nebor
The point is, for the vast majority of us that have cell phone contracts, and nice phones, the government can locate us with ease. Obviously someone who is on the run would be harder to find if they were smart.

The point is that this is just another step in the direction of CCTV on every street corner, cameras on stop lights that recognize and track every license plate, etc. So that our movements are always carefully watched and eventually controlled.

Don't forget the RFID driver license you are carrying ....

 

[StageLeft]

My God, I really thought I'd never see it. Another thread where Dave, the resident liberal whacko conspiracy theorist posts a thread touting his abilities of prediction and trying to rub in the faces of everyone else how they were wrong and he told them so years ago. This is definitely a first.

Years ago watching 24 I knew that people could be tracked by cell and anybody with any sense for the future knows that somebody will see a benefit to it. It will be inevitable that we all have black boxes in our cars and GPS to monitor driving, too.

 

[Lemon law]

I am trying to follow this thread, but please explain to me how I can be tracked when my cell phone is turned off. Which happens to be the state of my cell phone 99.999999% of the time.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: blackangst1
A couple things. Google maps doesnt install anything other than GPS integration into their maps. If you turn GPS off on your phone (which every phone has this capability) it's useless. Also, monitoring is done via GPS, so if you have it off it's worthless.

As far as signal goes, yeah they can triangulate to get an approximate location, but not exact like GPS. and to do that they would need to know your cell phone number. No one is going to track every cell signal. Where GPS is concerned, sonce it finds you via a GPS satellite, its easy to just get a readout on all GPS devices. but AFAIK theres no way to distinguish between a cell phone GPs and a hardwired GPS in your car.

Dont like it? Turn GPS off

Excuse me. I've been doing this for 4 years.

Not every phone has the ability to turn GPS off.

Many phones do not have GPS in them at all.

I can find you on your phone with GPS turned off or a phone that doesn't have GPS within 90 meters in 3 seconds or less, then with your name, address and all account information you provided to your carrier plus all info the government has on you within 20 seconds.

The cell towers are equiped with GPS and your info is in the phone radio and data stream.

Try and ask or do some research before spouting nonsense.

Of course I was laid off and dropped from that project without warning last October and now living from a suitcase so I personally cannot log into the system anymore but I am also no longer under Non Disclosure Agreement related to that either.

Hai. I just bought a SIM card for $10, made three calls a threw it away. Track me nao.

 

[EagleKeeper]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I am trying to follow this thread, but please explain to me how I can be tracked when my cell phone is turned off. Which happens to be the state of my cell phone 99.999999% of the time.

Much may depend on the definition of OFF.

Not in use or power removed?

I think that when there is power, the phone is continually transmitting (on a set time period) a "here I am (HIA) type " signal. This way the network knows where to route incoming calls.

Now, if you remove the power source, that removes the ability for the HIA to be available.


/ HIA is my own abreviation, not some industry term.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Hai. I enable the Radio on my BlackBerry, make a malicious call, turn it off. Track me nao.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Hai. I enable the Radio on my BlackBerry, make a malicious call, turn it off. Track me nao.

And thats my point. The average Joe could easily be tracked, because the average Joe is naive and not intelligent when it comes to electronics. But, the po po aint going to waste resources on average joe. A criminal, however, who is intentionally avoiding the law, will find very easy to avoid being tracked. It really isnt that difficult. As far as GPs goes, it is estimated only about 20% of all phones in use are GPS capable.

 

[OokiiNeko]

Good three dollar rental.

Dave, look at this as a business opportunity.

I have seen those sleeves that block the RFID in your passport, why not a cellphone pouch that blocks the GPS signal? I`ll buy one.

Easier than pulling the battery out all the time.

A better prediction would be "Cellphone batteries no longer accessible to users except for recharge, have to go to repair center for servicing."

 

[getbush]

Well the sky isn't quite falling and it is just a legal question but I can remember a time when telecom facilities didn't have NSA closets built into them. nyuck nyuck Courts shmorts.

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Hai. I enable the Radio on my BlackBerry, make a malicious call, turn it off. Track me nao.

And thats my point. The average Joe could easily be tracked, because the average Joe is naive and not intelligent when it comes to electronics. But, the po po aint going to waste resources on average joe. A criminal, however, who is intentionally avoiding the law, will find very easy to avoid being tracked. It really isnt that difficult. As far as GPs goes, it is estimated only about 20% of all phones in use are GPS capable.

I was going to make the same point, but you beat me to it. It's really a general problem with large scale surveillance like this, it doesn't help in tracking down people who are trying at all to avoid detection, about the only thing it's good for is spying on random people who the police have no real reason to spy on. In other words, it's almost entirely useless for anything but police state style surveillance on the entire population, it's not going to help stop any bad guys...except maybe the incredibly stupid ones, but we hardly need new techniques for doing THAT.

I would, however, be incredibly surprised if GPS is only present in 20% of all cell phones. I could see how that would be true if you're talking about user accessible GPS features like directions and mapping and what not, but as far as I'm aware, E-911 requires GPS capability in phones at least for calling 911...and that's been true for a number of years now. Since people upgrade their phones pretty often, I would bet that the vast majority of phones have been purchased since E-911 was a requirement.

 

[ahurtt]

I'm surprised nobody has pulled out the seemingly obvious "a cell phone is not a person" card yet. Until they actually start implanting chips into people in such a way that removing them or disabling them would cause immediate death, tracking a cell phone signal does not always mean the person carrying it is its owner or the person you are looking for. Just like an IP address is not a person in cases of peer to peer downloading of copyrighted material or just like a picture of your car running a red light does not prove you were driving it. A cell phone is not a person. Cell phones frequently get lost, stolen, misplaced, or lent to other friends or family members.

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: getbush
Well the sky isn't quite falling and it is just a legal question but I can remember a time when telecom facilities didn't have NSA closets built into them. nyuck nyuck Courts shmorts.

To my knowledge NSA boxes are only telco closets not wireless. I could be wrong, but just thinking outloud.

But I remember the week I was in a colo with MCI/ATT/Qwest working on a DACS when we were served with papers authorizing a closet. Scared the fuck out of us. It was set up as an extension on the CFA between MCI and Qwest.

(oops sorry.CFA is the handoff from one carrier to another didnt mean to get too nerdy)

 

[blackangst1]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: blackangst1

Originally posted by: DivideBYZero
Hai. I enable the Radio on my BlackBerry, make a malicious call, turn it off. Track me nao.

And thats my point. The average Joe could easily be tracked, because the average Joe is naive and not intelligent when it comes to electronics. But, the po po aint going to waste resources on average joe. A criminal, however, who is intentionally avoiding the law, will find very easy to avoid being tracked. It really isnt that difficult. As far as GPs goes, it is estimated only about 20% of all phones in use are GPS capable.

I was going to make the same point, but you beat me to it. It's really a general problem with large scale surveillance like this, it doesn't help in tracking down people who are trying at all to avoid detection, about the only thing it's good for is spying on random people who the police have no real reason to spy on. In other words, it's almost entirely useless for anything but police state style surveillance on the entire population, it's not going to help stop any bad guys...except maybe the incredibly stupid ones, but we hardly need new techniques for doing THAT.

I would, however, be incredibly surprised if GPS is only present in 20% of all cell phones. I could see how that would be true if you're talking about user accessible GPS features like directions and mapping and what not, but as far as I'm aware, E-911 requires GPS capability in phones at least for calling 911...and that's been true for a number of years now. Since people upgrade their phones pretty often, I would bet that the vast majority of phones have been purchased since E-911 was a requirement.

Just because a wireless company is "2nd phase E911 compliant" doesnt mean all of its handsets are. I was using the 20% figure based on something I read in an industry rag. It may be wrong, but I certainly wouldnt expect it to be above 50%. But *shrug* whatever

I agree with you it gives LE the tools to spy, but, putting the tin foil hats aside, I dont think it's happening very much. There are always exceptions, but. Most of us probably have friends or family in LE and they all will tell you they are VERY understaffed. My point being, although the tools ARE there, I honestly dont think LE has the time to sit around and see where joe smith is driving tonite.

Dont get me wrong. I hate it. The whole fucking unPatriot Act pisses me off to no end. And Im a security nut myself. Most of my hard drives are encrypted. I often surf via a proxy that gives me an IP address in Asia or Russia. Im as paranoid as the next guy. But, Im also realistic. At THIS point, I dont think its being abused. Luckily if the idiots in the country elect reps who will overturn it we can be fine. Whats been done in THIS regard can be undone.

And if people here think they are smart enough, or think they know someone smart enough, or if some boogeyman at an alphabet Fed agency reads this board and think they can track me by my posts or by email, go ahead and throw up the challenge. I'll put $50,000 in escrow that says you cant I'll sign into an alt and post here or send you an email to any address you want. Again, my point being, average joe can be tracked all day long, if LE had the time. But there are just too many tools for anonominity for even the average bad guy to avoid detection.

Sorry didnt mean to ramble

 

[Deleted member 4644]

1) Everyone talking about whether or not sets are GPS enabled or what percentage of sets are GPS enabled is DOG STUPID/Wasting time. Bottom line is that within 10 years all sets will be, so let's just STFU and move forward with that assumption/fact.

2) Now that we have that out of the way, everyone who says that this is a legal issue and not a tech issue is 100% correct. The tech is here, and it isn't going away. Cell phone, triangulation, GPS, have been around for a long time, and will be around until the end of human civilization.

3) This is a *legal* issue. The bottom line here is whether or not the gubbment is gonna need a warrant to track you/record you/film you/etc. Personally, I don't want them to be able to do most of those things without some sort of court order/warrant.

4) Personally, I am much more worried about wire-tapping and email seizures than I am about cell phone tracking. You *can* always turn off your cell phone.