Question TPM, Windows 11 and ASUS motherboards -- an advisory

[BonzaiDuck]

I will probably post this in the Windows forum as well.

I have two ASUS Z170 motherboards -- a Sabertooth "S" and a WS workstation board -- the second is a build in progress. [Sounds strange but I'll wait for at least a year before I move up to (what?) 12 gen Intel and chipset.] But the up-and-running system has a Kaby-Lake 7700K, and the workstation board is fitted for a Skylake 6700K.

These boards come with a plug for a TPM module. People are buying the modules with hopes of installing Windows 11 without any workarounds. The modules are available for about $34.

It's a slight gamble, I suppose, but I'm going to see what the MS/Windows diagnostic tells me after a win 10 install and the test system up and running with the module plugged in.

 

[Zoozuu]

Lol I said microshaft I think at least once this week. woo there's two. three times an we summon beatlejuice.. I better get the M$ paint and paint over the poo that was covering everything.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

It is optional. You stay on Windows 10, until it goes EOL.

Or move Linux for that matter. I don't care.

The only holdout Windows has is gaming, and that's eroding very fast due to the Steam Deck with the Proton compatibility layer. There is also Wine for other things. Which can often achieve better backwards compatibility with older Windows then Windows itself can.

It's some sort of memory-protection, and probably immunity to spectre/meltdown, that newer CPUs support. From what I read, it's actually not arbitrary.

It's called mode based execution control/MBEC. It's a kind of hardware acceleration for the HVCI function, which can have a very significant effect on CPUs without support*. As in 40% less performance in some cases.

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/202...hardware-requirements-according-to-microsoft/

If you're gaming you want that feature turned off even on supported CPUs as it can have a significant effect on game performance.

*Can't say I've noticed anything on my 1st gen Ryzen under 10 with HVCI enabled.

 

[mikeymikec]

It's some sort of memory-protection, and probably immunity to spectre/meltdown, that newer CPUs support. From what I read, it's actually not arbitrary.

If you have a link, I'm interested. I think Win10 has some kind of enable'able memory protection feature too, I wonder if it's the same thing.

- edit - I've since read the article Insert_Nickname posted.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

It's always nice to feel "useful" at my age, if I can spark comment with a thread such as this. And -- great comments and insights, folks!

I "Cancelled" my Amazon order for the ASUS TPM-M 2.0 plug after it was shipped. At that time, it was headed to an "Amazon facility", and the little thing in a bubble envelope wasn't delivered under "Prime" by yesterday as promised. So the remaining difficulty if any is "accounting" if I check my card and find the charges weren't reversed.

I need to copy the posted material and links contributed to this thread as part of any contingency. TheELF posted a procedure for temporary installation and test of Win 11 on my Sky and Kaby systems. This is also of value to me (and perhaps others?), but the "Sky" system -- no longer the motherboard of my sig-rig -- is in a state of partial assembly on my patio table, and I've decided to move forward with it without delay. Before I install Win 10, I could always test Win 11, but I can imagine where that decision will go when I get there.

I'm still collecting survey material from 59+ to 70+ - year-old colleagues about their processors. I don't think any of them, with the exception of recent-model laptop owners, are "eligible" for Win 11 without the hacks or detailed provisions we're discussing here. I offered them advice: "stick with Windows 10 on the old systems: you have four more years, and probably time after that if you attend to AV-related protections."

I and my friends use our computers for many essential and routine business matters. For myself, I've got two "spare" machines and a laptop, so maybe I can take the time and trouble to pursue experiments on one deemed "unessential". I have reports that a Win 11 attempt failed on a Haswell system, but no guarantee that some mistake might have occurred. The owner doesn't seem to have an intention to give up his hardware too soon. Certainly, I'm in no hurry with some prospective upgrade to Alder Lake or later that I now have in mind.

I just found an article published this month, noting that MS has "communicated" with OEMs to announce that they can now "test their drivers" on release 22H2. I had to look up the acronym "RTM" -- release to manufacturing" -- so I could understand what I'm reading. This is all so freaking early. Back in Windows 7 days, a lot of savvy people here at the forums were "holding back" on Win 10 upgrades.

This is all in an early stage. I'm just glad that I took the time to investigate, or even think about buying a $30 TPM before cancelling the order.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Here's a thought -- posted impolitely just after my last TLTR. A question, actually. Plenty of opportunities for other members to opine.

Let us suppose you successfully install Windows 11 on an old chipset and processor. Let us suppose that you are satisfied with performance, and everything went A-OK with the installation. Let us even suppose that you like the Windows 11 appearance and features, or think that it's an actual improvement on the garish features of Windows 10.

Now. Let us also assume that at some time, your Windows 11 won't upgrade or update any further.

And among our essential assumptions, you are rocking that old, pre-Coffee-Lake hardware. It all still works. Your security and virus protection are still updated.

Therefore -- SO WHAT if it doesn't admit feature upgrades or updates? Will it suddenly become "unfunctional"? Or would it simply exist in a state such as an old Windows 7 system, that periodically throws up that sky-blue screen and notice of discontinued support? Will you get annoying "fail" messages under "Update and Security"? I think one could safely turn that off.

Or how do we know that anything bad will happen after that? Because . . . . by that time . . . maybe you just decide to swap out the old CPU, mobo and (maybe) RAM. If you do that, would the Win 11 digital license still activate? Why wouldn't it?

Perhaps we should abduct Microsoft, tape its arms and legs to a wooden chair, and interrogate it without waterboarding . . . We won't even pull out fingernails, as in that Samuel L. Jackson movie. Was the movie titled "Unthinkable"? I may still bring a pair of needle-nose pliers.

I'm starting to worry about myself. I was speaking to Moms about dinner. I had picked up some Stouffers frozen food at the grocery last night. I forgot the word "Lasagna". I had to look in the freezer to remind myself . . . As much as you might delight in Don Bonz-o's Special Pasta Sauce, you must see here that I know my f***ing pasta. I FORGOT the word LASAGNA!

 

[VirtualLarry]

Or how do we know that anything bad will happen after that?

Having an unpatched system in the modern era is dangerous. Not just to you, either, but also your "neighbors on the 'net", due to malware infections.

I certainly wouldn't put a Windows XP system on the internet these days, no matter how much security software that you have layered on.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

What's the story about that "extended support program" being offered to business entities to keep Win 10 alive? I'd seen it mentioned in a thread. Maybe someone could post some links. I lost track of a mention of it in these forums.

I know some people who've kept Windows VISTA running on an old Core-2-Duo. I had Win 7 on two systems running the MS AV program and Malwarebytes on top of it -- running for maybe two or three years after that sky-blue screen would pop up occasionally warning of discontinued support. But those systems only accessed one or two web-pages or URLs. Never had a problem.

Of course, your advisory is sort of like the COVID-19 ethic. I was really trying hard to protect myself! I had a 3M respirator that actually protected ME -- the wearer -- from the virus! I"d dress up like Dustin Hoffman in "Outbreak" when I went to the grocery -- clear-plastic shop-goggles and woodland-camo USMC rain parka included -- with rubber surgical gloves and the respirator.

It was only in the last year I discovered that I was protecting myself, but not everyone else. The filters on the 3M only filter inhalation. Exhaling just goes through a valve that's unfiltered. I didn't know! I didn't know, I say!

 

[Hotrod2go]

Interesting thread, the W11 ecosystem is annoying to say the least, not one DDR3 based tech system is supported with the shiny new OS from our MS overlords. These older systems are still very useful for light desktop usage like net surfing or playing back media, etc.. I'm not keen on experimenting with linux distros either as substitutes cause' from my experience, the hardware support is only ok at best, that is its not as refined as MS based systems. Devices will work only just ok not optimally...

Another note of interest is that 2018 based Zen+ based systems are not listed as being officially supported by MS for win11 either despite the fact that I have one here now & have notification from win10 that my system is OK for win11 upgrade!
If anyone is interested as to the why's of this Zen+ platform being left out in the cold with "official" support for win11 (at least as listed on MS website for CPU support) there is an article over here from Ars Technica about this strange contradiction.

 

[VirtualLarry]

not one DDR3 based tech system is supported with the shiny new OS from our MS overlords.

DDR3 systems lack hardware mitigations for "RowHammer" attacks.

 

[Hotrod2go]

DDR3 systems lack hardware mitigations for "RowHammer" attacks.

Yes, but I ain't no expert here so presume software fix could help?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Interesting thread, the W11 ecosystem is annoying to say the least, not one DDR3 based tech system is supported with the shiny new OS from our MS overlords. These older systems are still very useful for light desktop usage like net surfing or playing back media, etc.. I'm not keen on experimenting with linux distros either as substitutes cause' from my experience, the hardware support is only ok at best, that is its not as refined as MS based systems. Devices will work only just ok not optimally...

Another note of interest is that 2018 based Zen+ based systems are not listed as being officially supported by MS for win11 either despite the fact that I have one here now & have notification from win10 that my system is OK for win11 upgrade!
If anyone is interested as to the why's of this Zen+ platform being left out in the cold with "official" support for win11 (at least as listed on MS website for CPU support) there is an article over here from Ars Technica about this strange contradiction.

I just have to be practical about this. As I've said here and elsewhere, I had spare parts purchased last year, and I'm building a system with my sig CPU and a workstation board. A little late in the cycle! I had a spare Win 10 Pro license "white-box", so I'll install it, clone the disk, then attempt the work-arounds described here and elsewhere.

Maybe I'll go forward and install Win 11 on my laptop -- offered free from LG, but then' it's "free" anyway.

I once described building a computer as an exercise like surfing. You wait for the right wave. When the prices are right, the BIOSes are mature, you pull the string and do it. But we see now the constraints or risks with dated hardware. I'm not sure what my mainstreamer friends will do! I may have mentioned a friend across town -- so-called electronics pro -- never built a system from scratch. I suppose it's wise to purchase corporate asset refurbs, and he was bragging that he got three HP systems for $150 each. Well, he's in the same boat as everyone else with dated hardware. He and all my other mainstreamer friends are NOT likely to try to work-arounds. At least my friend in New Mexico actually gave it a shot with his Haswell system.

 

[Shmee]

I would avoid Windows 11 until I really need to use it, or it provides a feature I actually want that Win10 doesn't have. Realistically, I will stay on Win10 on my WIndows computers till it is EOL, and possibly longer. Depending on what workarounds / mods for Windows 11 at that point, I might use it, but only if I can still use it with a local account, and if I can use it on my older systems as well (X99 with Xeon 1660v3)

If those requirements aren't able to be met, I will either stay on Windows 10 or go to Linux.

Now, for what it's worth, I did 'upgrade' to Windows 11 on my X99 a while back using the workaround, but this was with the leaked version before release. The upgrade went well enough(didn't need to fresh install) and things worked for the most part. But there was no reason to go to Windows 11, so I restored back to Windows 10. I haven't bothered with Windows 11 since.

 

[Tech Junky]

@Shmee

It's all a preference thing whether or not to W11. I converted last fall in preparation for ADL and also because W10 was nagging me all the time to install patches.

W11 isn't the evil everyone makes it out to be though. It's same crap with the same caveats as it always has been. Under ADL it does run a bit snappier but, for older systems it's not a must have for anything. The only perk is thread director for ADL and beyond to make things use the cores more efficiently.

I hack the hell out of it in regedit though to make it feel more W10-esque if that makes sense. I prefer the taskbar in other locations than the bottom but, the only other option is move it to the top. Moving it R or L makes it work funny.

Keeping an eye on updates though as there's been plenty of botched releases causing some BSOD's on other user's systems. Always a quick google to check things before letting Windows install ANYTHING.

I've got this quirky touchpad issue though that keeps rearing its head where it just goes nuts trying to do things on its own but, reinstalled W11 the other day and it fixed it for the most part. I'm thinking there's a process running occasionally that is the cause or some other ported setting from a prior install. I made sure it wasn't a HW issue booting into Linux and of course not seeing it happen.

On my 9750H system though there wasn't as many quirks in W11 as there seem to be on the new system. I'll take the performance gains though over the little bugs I'm nailing down one by one. The new HW runs better for daily tasks and more intensive tasks as needed. I've gotten a bit more aggressive in disabling things though on the new system and killing nagging things like defender by regedit / deleting the folder from a livecd session.

I use both OS's though for different functions. Linux is my go to for my server as a router/nas and W11 for crap I can't get in Linux or don't want to take the performance hit on by using in a VM.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Let us suppose you successfully install Windows 11 on an old chipset and processor. Let us suppose that you are satisfied with performance, and everything went A-OK with the installation. Let us even suppose that you like the Windows 11 appearance and features, or think that it's an actual improvement on the garish features of Windows 10.

Now. Let us also assume that at some time, your Windows 11 won't upgrade or update any further.

And among our essential assumptions, you are rocking that old, pre-Coffee-Lake hardware. It all still works. Your security and virus protection are still updated.

Therefore -- SO WHAT if it doesn't admit feature upgrades or updates? Will it suddenly become "unfunctional"? Or would it simply exist in a state such as an old Windows 7 system, that periodically throws up that sky-blue screen and notice of discontinued support? Will you get annoying "fail" messages under "Update and Security"? I think one could safely turn that off.

I suppose so. But we really don't know yet.

I run plenty of unsupported OS, but I do keep them off the internet. Just as a precaution. But I don't think there is much risk f.x. Windows 98 would get infected with anything. I don't think modern malware would even recognise it. If it does the damage would be very limited. Just wipe and put a fresh image on.

Or how do we know that anything bad will happen after that? Because . . . . by that time . . . maybe you just decide to swap out the old CPU, mobo and (maybe) RAM. If you do that, would the Win 11 digital license still activate? Why wouldn't it?

That'll depend on which kind of licence you're using. A full retail will transfer to a new system, no questions asked. An OEM licence is tied to the mainboard, so if that goes south, you'll (probably) need a new licence. You can try calling MS directly. They're usually pretty large with reactivation if you tell them what happened. At least over here, don't know about the US. As a woman I spoke to once pointed out, pirates (or just the dishonest) rarely take the trouble to actually call them.

Just put "slmgr /dli" (/dlv will give you very detailed info if you need it) into a command prompt. It'll tell you what type of licence you have in a flash. (Of course, after your vaping disaster that may be the wrong frase to use... )

Perhaps we should abduct Microsoft, tape its arms and legs to a wooden chair, and interrogate it without waterboarding . . . We won't even pull out fingernails, as in that Samuel L. Jackson movie. Was the movie titled "Unthinkable"? I may still bring a pair of needle-nose pliers.

No reason to go that far. It's amazing what you can do with a "friendly" chat...

Depending on what workarounds / mods for Windows 11 at that point, I might use it, but only if I can still use it with a local account, and if I can use it on my older systems as well (X99 with Xeon 1660v3)

For the time being it's just the lousy out-of-box installer that won't let you create a new local account without jumping through a few hoops. Fortunately, you don't really have to use the installer for anything. It makes setup a little more complicated, but if you're comfortable with a terminal window, there is no problem creating local accounts yet.

I don't think they'll be able to remove them even if they want to. It'll break too many things.

 

[TheELF]

There is also Wine for other things. Which can often achieve better backwards compatibility with older Windows then Windows itself can.

Just to let people know about it.

GitHub - otya128/winevdm: 16-bit Windows (Windows 1.x, 2.x, 3.0, 3.1, etc.) on 64-bit Windows

16-bit Windows (Windows 1.x, 2.x, 3.0, 3.1, etc.) on 64-bit Windows - otya128/winevdm

github.com

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I continue to make bits of progress on the twin to the Vaping-Pen-Resurrection-Rig. I bought some chump-change NVME heatsinks and a set of NVME screws at Amazon. They arrived this morning. So the dual-NVME-with-bifurcation card is ready to rock and roll. I even ordered a license for Win 10 Pro to install on it.

I've got everything I need. I shouldn't be running up a bill on parts for a long time, until I get a mobo bundle compatible with Win 11. Who is really in a hurry, though?

I almost want to change my "machine name" to "Vaping Pen". I learned my lesson. It's now an "old" rig, but it is running tip-top.

Time and Money -- the two essential factors in "economic thinking". Money and Time -- the two essential costs of being an enthusiast who just can't let go of the habit.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I usually can find the right definition of acronyms with web-searches so that I don't appear to be ignorant. But sooner or later, I would likely have to ask. I've been "computing" for the last four years as opposed to keeping up with the technology.

So. What does "ADL" mean? You are certainly not referring to the Anti-Defamation League.

 

[Tech Junky]

ADL = Alder lake aka Intel 12th gen

 

[VirtualLarry]

Alder Lake

 

[Hotrod2go]

Should drop the "D" & just have AL

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Should drop the "D" & just have AL

OK . . . I got it . . .

 

[Hotrod2go]

OK . . . I got it . . .

Industry is full of fancy acronyms... shows you how lazy they all are.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

Industry is full of fancy acronyms... shows you how lazy they all are.

Laziness can be a virtue. It ensures you do everything in the most effective way possible, if you handle your laziness right. Don't work hard, work smart.

Sloth on the other hand...

 

[mikeymikec]

Should drop the "D" & just have AL

And then it even has its own theme tune:

I'll see myself out.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Laziness can be a virtue. It ensures you do everything in the most effective way possible, if you handle your laziness right. Don't work hard, work smart.

Sloth on the other hand...

No truer words ever said. These days, and even for the simplest task objectives, I sits and thinks about it for longer than it actually takes to do it. For mental activity, it beats watching the bad news on the Tee-Vee.