Question TPM, Windows 11 and ASUS motherboards -- an advisory

[BonzaiDuck]

I will probably post this in the Windows forum as well.

I have two ASUS Z170 motherboards -- a Sabertooth "S" and a WS workstation board -- the second is a build in progress. [Sounds strange but I'll wait for at least a year before I move up to (what?) 12 gen Intel and chipset.] But the up-and-running system has a Kaby-Lake 7700K, and the workstation board is fitted for a Skylake 6700K.

These boards come with a plug for a TPM module. People are buying the modules with hopes of installing Windows 11 without any workarounds. The modules are available for about $34.

It's a slight gamble, I suppose, but I'm going to see what the MS/Windows diagnostic tells me after a win 10 install and the test system up and running with the module plugged in.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The TPM unit doesn't matter, those CPUs are "too old", and unsupported. Regardless of the presence of a TPM module.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The modules are available for about $34.

For gosh sake's Bonzai, save your money.

 

[TheELF]

The TPM unit doesn't matter, those CPUs are "too old", and unsupported. Regardless of the presence of a TPM module.

There are zero checks against the CPU while windows is already running, the question is if it will install without workarounds on an "old" CPU, if it installs it will run fine.

 

[Tech Junky]

There's always a hack to get around stupid hurdles put in place for stupid people. It's all a matter of whether you want to deal with it or not on older hardware.

The benefits of W11 though don't really shine unless you're running ADL anyway.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The TPM unit doesn't matter, those CPUs are "too old", and unsupported. Regardless of the presence of a TPM module.

OK . . . But I saw people buying them just for this reason. There weren't any or many bad reviews.

I appreciate others suggesting I save my money, and I'm on it like flies on a dead bunny rabbit.

Incidentally -- somewhere on the user reviews or ROG forum today I read that one had to turn the compatibility and legacy features off in BIOS leaving only UEFI boot options. The ROG article was posted in January. Now it may be -- you may know -- that the TPM module offers the hoped-for success with later processors using the Z290, 390 and later boards. But I want to verify at this point whether the 6 and 7 gen processors are still excluded, or if the Windows diagnostic for Win 11 accepts them.

So again -- maybe you're right, but I'm going to find out.

The problem system is up and running fine, so I solved that problem. I took the collection of parts I had and started building a similar system, so I can use that one to test.

Either way, they will be Win 10 systems, or Win 11 will install without further specific remedy, or there is the hack that even MS had published.

I have a friend who is still using a Haswell; another friend who just bought "corporate asset surplus" HP systems with "Pentium" processors released when the Skylake came out.

Everyone is pissed off at MS, although we still have three years before they drop support for Win 10 feature and improvement upgrades/updates.

All of us are over 70. We'd like to coast awhile on our dated hardware. But of course -- this has been said many times, I'm sure, with regard to the Win 11 issue. I even had Medicare in-home-care workers coming in today for Moms, and they were savvy about the issue. "Microsoft wants us to buy new computers," they said, with a certain tone of cynical disgust.

 

[VirtualLarry]

All of us are over 70. We'd like to coast awhile on our dated hardware. But of course -- this has been said many times, I'm sure, with regard to the Win 11 issue. I even had Medicare in-home-care workers coming in today for Moms, and they were savvy about the issue. "Microsoft wants us to buy new computers," they said, with a certain tone of cynical disgust.

You're right-on, man, you're right-on!

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You're right-on, man, you're right-on!

I should find the link to give you a thumbs-up. What you say raises my spirits.

I must say, though, at the time I built this "wonderful 6th/7th generation build", Moms hadn't had her accident (people afflicted with dementia all get broken hips for loss of balance and coordination). Suddenly, I had all sorts of other things to worry about, when it used to be the case that I'd have time to "keep up".

It's as though I'm Rip Van Winkle, and I just woke up to the fact that my processor and chipset are reaching EOL. I can keep them running with Win 10, and someone mentioned some "program" that allows businesses to get continued support, so I wonder what that would cost an individual. It depends on what they charge the businesses per PC, if they do it that way. . . .

Does anyone know more about that?

It's almost sad. I've cleaned up most of my troubles. The Win 2012 server is backing up the Win 10 systems nightly, after several months with backup broken. I can even ask what I'm going to do with THAT hardware, once I break free of the idea that I want or need a server.

As you insinuated earlier -- why spend the money on something that no longer serves three users, but now only one? Or why spend even 3 Mexican dinners-worth on a module that doesn't make nice with Win 11?

So . . . . I'm going to thaw out some of the Duck-Meister's famous taco-meat . . . Moms likes the tacos; can't stand the bombero sauce.

 

[Zoozuu]

heres a okay article. here. heres another. oh also windows 11 may run like a lousy mess on unsupported systems lots of users who just did bypasses ect reported iffy performance and just went back to their old OS.

EDIT: they kinda say the same thing I guess lol. most of them are just about bypassing it or buying new hardware. heres a article on some errors and easiest workarounds for anyone who doesnt know here.

 

[VirtualLarry]

The TPM thing, for 6th/7th-Gen Core CPU systems (Skylake / Kaby Lake), is a waste of money.

The reason why is, those systems are doubly-disqualified from Win11. #1 because of the (Edit: Lack of) TPM. #2 because the CPU is "too old" (*doesn't support the newest whiz-bang memory-protections).

There's a list of CPU's that DID make the cut for Win11, on MS's site somewhere.

So if you splashed out for the TPM, you're still "disqualified" from installing Win11.

HOWEVER, there is a work-around, that will let you install Win11 from USB drive onto a fresh system, and bypass the disqualifications. In that case, you can bypass both of them in one fell swoop, so that you still don't need to splash out for a TPM module.

 

[VirtualLarry]

It's almost sad. I've cleaned up most of my troubles. The Win 2012 server is backing up the Win 10 systems nightly, after several months with backup broken. I can even ask what I'm going to do with THAT hardware, once I break free of the idea that I want or need a server.

As you insinuated earlier -- why spend the money on something that no longer serves three users, but now only one?

I don't think that I've suggested in the past few weeks that you get rid of your server, only that you don't mess with 'Domain join" without reading the docs first. Networked automatic backup is a really powerful thing. I took the easy way out, I'm using a NAS, and using Macrium Reflect Free (Registered) with the scheduler to automatically backup to a network share. I think that's a simpler solution than what you have. Given the price of Server Essentials 2012, you could probably buy a decent NAS instead with that kind of money, if you had it to do over again. (Although, you still use Media Center, which I never really messed with. PITY the DRM keeps you tied to the MS Ecosystem. Lock-in to MS is a tricky thing.)

 

[VirtualLarry]

heres a okay article. here. heres another.

EDIT: they kinda say the same thing I guess lol

That's interesting, nothing like a bit of internet plagarism for sketchy sites, LOL. PCWorld is the original source, I'm sure.

 

[Zoozuu]

yeah that stuff is all over. lmao I've seen more than one site copypaste articles. also rufus supposably allows for clean install without any checks. ah also heres another article. here. one funny thing I own a cpu that was almost to sucky to make it into windows 11. Intel(R) Core(TM) i3-10110U.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

The TPM thing, for 6th/7th-Gen Core CPU systems (Skylake / Kaby Lake), is a waste of money.

The reason why is, those systems are doubly-disqualified from Win11. #1 because of the (Edit: Lack of) TPM. #2 because the CPU is "too old" (*doesn't support the newest whiz-bang memory-protections).

There's a list of CPU's that DID make the cut for Win11, on MS's site somewhere.

So if you splashed out for the TPM, you're still "disqualified" from installing Win11.

HOWEVER, there is a work-around, that will let you install Win11 from USB drive onto a fresh system, and bypass the disqualifications. In that case, you can bypass both of them in one fell swoop, so that you still don't need to splash out for a TPM module.

Larry, you guys have always been stand-up folks for sharing knowledge.

I scanned the links in Zoozuu's post, which also had links, until I found the processor list.

So I canceled the order, although with Amazon Prime, it was shipped today, so I'll have to return it.

I suppose I can wait three years, or I can throw in an extra swappable disk to try the workaround, and if I have misgivings, revert to Win 10.

Without the vaping-pen accident, I wouldn't be in this sad place. I might be in this place, but I'd have a plan for upgrade to new hardware. I'm even looking at the server OS options (like Win 2016 Essentials) and I've got misgivings about that and the hardware that I often pick for such purposes: past-gen PCs that I refurb.

That leaves the option of a NAS or just peer-to-peer sharing. I'll be 80 in six more years! What does one do then?

So -- Larry -- are there any shortcomings once the Win 11 successfully installs on the older hardware? I have a lot of reading to catch up on, but a lot less time to do it.

Everybody I know is rocking older hardware with Windows 10. They only get three more years of support? I don't know any of them who want to replace their hardware. None.

So I keep looking into the future, and I wonder what seniors do with their data when they're getting ready to punch their ticket . . . I'm concerned about my friend with the Haswell, and everybody else with old hardware.

My situation is different than theirs to some degree. I was deep into IT in my previous younger life, and decided I'd make a computer work to better manage my money, monitor security cameras -- all the things you might be able to do in your home. The Media Center box was wonderful -- until MS dropped support, and the cable company fouled up how my cable-CARDs work with the tuners I had.

A guy two doors up from me just retired from his psychiatric practice. He was flexing his muscles a bit, to tell me he had a "command station" at home with three computers. He's never seen this room in which I dwell. I'm not sure what direction to go with all this.

Well -- I can upgrade the high-end laptop I bought last summer -- which I don't like (wishing I'd bought the Acer Nitro 5). It came with a free Win 11 upgrade option. I don't know for sure if I can get it now. I just can't imagine myself as a doddering old fart, picking away at a mushy laptop keyboard to pay the bills . . .

 

[VirtualLarry]

So -- Larry -- are there any shortcomings once the Win 11 successfully installs on the older hardware? I have a lot of reading to catch up on, but a lot less time to do it.

There was some talk that using the workaround Registry entry, to allow installation of Win11 onto "unsupported" systems/CPUs, would result in a system that was installed OK, but might, at some future date, refuse to update.

This was also true with Win7's updates. Owners of Kaby Lake CPUs (or newer), had to use a 3rd-party patch, otherwise Microsoft locked them out of updates.

So it wouldn't surprise me, if MS is locking things down again, and will do the same with Win11 that they did with Win7, locking out updates for "unsupported" CPUs.

Well -- I can upgrade the high-end laptop I bought last summer -- which I don't like (wishing I'd bought the Acer Nitro 5). It came with a free Win 11 upgrade option. I don't know for sure if I can get it now. I just can't imagine myself as a doddering old fart, picking away at a mushy laptop keyboard to pay the bills . . .

You know that RGB Mechanical keyboards with a USB interface, work just as well on a laptop's USB ports, right? Just get your Win11 higher-end laptop in 3-5 years with Win11 or whatever's newest at the time of purchase, and plug in your own keyboard/mouse, or get a USB-C/Thunderbolt docking station and plug that in. (And plug the mech. USB keyboard and gaming mouse into the docking station's USB Type-A ports.)

 

[Zoozuu]

lol command station. just say that it was missing details on the product page when you go to return it. (*technically it was) (** inaccurate website description)

 

[BonzaiDuck]

I'm backing away from making a fret over Windows 11. According to an article someone linked that was published on October 28, 2021, we have "four years of bliss" with Windows 10.

Then, I discovered this web-page information from ASUS -- "Motherboards compatible with Windows 11" Several Z170 motherboards are listed. I"m not even sure if that web page is "selling" their TPM-M 2.0 modules. All of those boards have the TPM-M 2.0 pinouts, identically.

This is all very confusing, and again I want to hit someone at MS over the head with my giant Farberware frying pan.

ASUS wouldn't provide this information to give false hopes. What good does it do? Suggesting that people can keep their Z170 motherboards, when ASUS would make money on Z690 replacements?

On the matter of peripherals and laptops -- sure -- a USB keyboard. I always put a USB wireless mouse receiver into my laptop. It just seems like a lot of extra clutter beyond that. I think I can do the same thing with my Android tablet. Do you know WHY I bought a Samsung Tab A last month, after the old Chinese knockoff died? Very practical reasons! I've got all the apps for our streaming subscription channels. I've got half the library of Congress music collection on a 128GB SDXC card, and a Bose Bluetooth speaker that really blasts out the sound. I want to watch TV on my patio! I want to listen to tunes on the patio while I work in the garden.

I didn't dig myself into a hole last year, but I spent too much money in panic -- needlessly. I can argue that it was the stimulus checks which I didn't need. [Sure -- they didn't want us to SAVE the stimulus money, but to spend it]. But I just have a residual stupid feeling.

I can easily go out and get an Alder Lake motherboard bundle, but as I said elsewhere -- I just don't need to right now. What I need . . is what I've now got through Cyber-Resurrection: this (now) Kaby Lake system rock solid and behaving itself. Just thinking about the last year makes me want to . . . . take another pull on the vaping pen. And -- there we go again, ya see?

 

[Zoozuu]

it does say some kind of compatibility on their website and there is a tool to "manually activate support in uefi bios" but it also says to download microshaft's tool to check compatibility. its kind of like saying we tried to make it work but look its all ms that did it. pretty much a arrow pointing at MS. looks like a scam they're pulling to sell old hardware stock unless you have a variant thats works and is compatible. im sure if you ask anyone at asus theyll tell you to just download MS requirement tool.

edit: here the list of "support" here which its on there. really annoying lol

 

[BonzaiDuck]

it does say some kind of compatibility on their website and there is a tool to "manually activate support in uefi bios" but it also says to download microshaft's tool to check compatibility. its kind of like saying we tried to make it work but look its all ms that did it. pretty much a arrow pointing at MS. looks like a scam they're pulling to sell old hardware stock unless you have a variant thats works and is compatible. im sure if you ask anyone at asus theyll tell you to just download MS requirement tool.

edit: here the list of "support" here which its on there. really annoying lol

I can't become a Mainstreamer, just because I've been working and playing with "micro-computers" since the early '80s. I am who I am. But this whole business of "workarounds", qualified and cautious caveats about this or that processor -- I don't want to worry about it now. A lot of people HERE in the forums are rocking old hardware, even if it's newer than mine.

Maybe later this year, I'll revisit this issue. Or I'll attempt to install Win 11 on the workstation board and Skylake. Before I put it into working operation, that is . . .

I keep thinking about all the time I put into this technology supposedly for my own benefit. I imagine your average Mainstreamer gets annoyed when they -- have to do S***. I understand. Fully.

So far, in this house, I've got rid of two old systems, but adding in one more not-so-old old system. Eventually I'll have to pull the board, RAM and CPU and replace it with new.

I'm also getting tired of tedious case mods. I was going to replicate my Resurrection system with the spare parts. There's special provision for a CM barrel fan. I don't think I want to do it. not now. Too much tedium, not enough time. Not enough benefit, either. I'll reconsider when I drop a Win-11-compatible bundle into the same case. We shouldn't worry about overclocking anymore, and we shouldn't worry about every possible cooling enhancement, even limited to air.

 

[TheELF]

If you want to test it out without committing to anything, go to disk management and create a virtual hard disk (VHD) and mount it (menu -action create- and -action attach- ) ,60Gb is a good size if you can keep your drive relatively clean,
after installing drivers and some basic apps it will be around 30Gb used.

For a clean install you can use the command line from your current windows.

Double click on the windows 11 iso you downloaded from MS to mount it.

This command takes the installation file from drive E: and installs it to drive G:
change those drive letters to whatever the drives you want to install from and to are currently lettered as.

dism /Apply-Image /ImageFile E:\Sources\install.esd /index:1 /ApplyDir:G:\

index:1 takes the first option, usually windows x64 home, if you want to install something else
(always only install the version you have the license for) you can use this command to see your options.

dism /Get-WimInfo /WimFile E:\Sources\install.esd

This will completely ignore any tpm or cpu compatibilities.

To make this bootable add it to the boot menu either with easybcd, or by using this command from recovery.

G:\Windows\System32\bcdboot G:\Windows

Again changing G: to whatever your win 11 drive is currently lettered as.

To see the drive letters enter diskpart by typing diskpart and hitting enter.

then -list volume- gives you a list of the volumes.

If you are heavy into gaming running windows from a virtual drive might impact loading in textures and the like but otherwise you should not notice any difference.
If everything works well you can clone the virtual disk to a real one, or do this process again on a real disk.
If you are unhappy with it you can just delete the .vhd and remove the boot menu entry.

 

[Insert_Nickname]

There was some talk that using the workaround Registry entry, to allow installation of Win11 onto "unsupported" systems/CPUs, would result in a system that was installed OK, but might, at some future date, refuse to update.

I'm willing to bet the excuse will be "security". For whom? MS?

Not every system needs to be Fort Knox secure. I'd be OK with all the added security in 11, if it was optional.

 

[Muadib]

I'm willing to bet the excuse will be "security". For whom? MS?

Not every system needs to be Fort Knox secure. I'd be OK with all the added security in 11, if it was optional.

It is optional. You stay on Windows 10, until it goes EOL.

 

[mikeymikec]

For gosh sake's Bonzai, save your money.

I'm raising my eyebrows at you, VL.

That aside:

We know (due to the officially mentioned workaround) that neither the TPM or CPU requirements are currently absolute requirements.

Assuming for a second that Win11's system requirements aren't entirely artificial (ie. MS actually has plans to make use of TPM v2 in Win11 in such a way that it is actually a technical requirement for Windows to work full stop), then buying a TPM module isn't necessarily a bad idea.

IMO the CPU requirement in Win11 is obviously artificial since MS doesn't demand the presence of a particular CPU instruction, it's just this airy-fairy "newer than 2017" business.

 

[VirtualLarry]

IMO the CPU requirement in Win11 is obviously artificial since MS doesn't demand the presence of a particular CPU instruction, it's just this airy-fairy "newer than 2017" business.

It's some sort of memory-protection, and probably immunity to spectre/meltdown, that newer CPUs support. From what I read, it's actually not arbitrary.

 

[DAPUNISHER]

In the last few days I have seen M$ and microshaft posted -

Follow @JackMDS instructions for installing win 11 on older hardware, and be done with it. It is both fast and simple.