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Toyota sludge

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From my understanding, it's the oil returns from the head are too small. And when I've pull the valvecovers this seems to be the case - excessive sludge pile up in those areas.

As for the service issue - if you can prove you serviced the car at least every 5000 - 7500 (on most cars - some even more, as I stated above) you won't have a warranty issue. They have no business determining what kind of driving you do.

As a matter of fact, we have a Saab at a dealer for a timing chain noise right now. It's actually the balance shaft chain which has an oil pressurized tensioner. Sludge will cause it to operate incorrectly and the chain will get excessive play in it. The car has 49K on it (just in warranty) - they just needed to see that the car had it's 30k and 40k service.

Another car we've run across with this problem are Nissans with the VQ engines. Timing chain tensioners. BIG problem. If the engine isn't already hopelessly sludged, it's still about a 10 hour job to get in there and replace them (along with the timing chain).

CF
 
Originally posted by: CFster
From my understanding, it's the oil returns from the head are too small. And when I've pull the valvecovers this seems to be the case - excessive sludge pile up in those areas.

As for the service issue - if you can prove you serviced the car at least every 5000 - 7500 (on most cars - some even more, as I stated above) you won't have a warranty issue. They have no business determining what kind of driving you do.

As a matter of fact, we have a Saab at a dealer for a timing chain noise right now. It's actually the balance shaft chain which has an oil pressurized tensioner. Sludge will cause it to operate incorrectly and the chain will get excessive play in it. The car has 49K on it (just in warranty) - they just needed to see that the car had it's 30k and 40k service.

Another car we've run across with this problem are Nissans with the VQ engines. Timing chain tensioners. BIG problem. If the engine isn't already hopelessly sludged, it's still about a 10 hour job to get in there and replace them (along with the timing chain).

CF
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Engineering aside, that tells me that todays oils are failing to adequately lubricate our modern engines for the specified intervals.....

Either that or it's user error.. lol
 
Originally posted by: IamElectro
Originally posted by: CFster
You wouldn't believe how many I see in my line of work (wholesale auto).

Dodges, Jeeps, Saabs, Toyotas, VWs etc.

It's all because of leasing. People figure if they don't own the car, then they shouldn't have to service it. I've seen so many cars with 35K+ miles with the original oil filters on them - it's disgusting.

BTW - there isn't a car out there that requires service every 3K miles. That went out in mid eighties with carbs. 5K is sufficient, even on dino oil. 7.5K or 10K on synthetic, if you're doing a lot highway driving.
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Changing the oil at 3k miles is cheap insurance on the most exspensive part in a car.

Actually, a lot of new cars (BMW, Mercedes) are recommending first oil changes at 15K miles, and every 15K after.
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Please show me where you read this.

My best friend is the servise manager at a local Benz dealership and I quote him.
The max for city driving is 3750 and 5k highway. Although they Mercedes prefers it to be done at 3750. He also stated that Mercedes may and will void your warranty for not using approved fluids and having maintinance done within these guidelines.
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Odd......my brother wrenches parttime at a NO. VA MB, Audi, Porsche, BMW dealership and says the mileage limits you quote are junk. Even MB's own website seems to dispute your "friend's" claims that the MB requirement is 3750 miles.

According to John, and MB, MB uses a Flexible Service System integrated into their cars. A computerized monitoring system, it measures crankshaft revolutions, air quality intake, rpm's used, and a host of other parameters to tell the owner when service, major or minor, is needed. The "A" service, the minor service interval, is what the oil change is included in.

According to MB's website under service:

Generally, you can expect to drive your Mercedes approximately 10,000 miles between services - and as many as 20,000 miles - depending on which model you drive, how you drive it and the severity of your driving conditions. Most people average around 12,000 miles between service visits.
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And beginning in the 2005 model year, MB is dropping the Flex Service System (MB electrics aren't the most reliable, but then again, they wouldn't be since MB really pushes the envelope on integrated electronics on vehicles....) and just putting in a standard service interval:

For Model Year 2005 vehicles

The Mercedes-Benz Maintenance Plan makes caring for your 2005 Mercedes easier than ever. The service intervals are fixed and predictable - every 13,000 miles or one year for most vehicles.* Your car will even remind you - about one month before it's due.

*whichever comes first. Requires use of 229.5-spec oil and high-performance fleece oil filter. Every 10,000 miles on V-12 and AMG models. Driver is responsible for monitoring fluid levels and tire pressures between service visits.
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So, MB now recommends a 13K service interval for oil changes except on their ultra-high performance models if you use MB's spec'd oil and filter. Previously, for 2004 and prior years, the interval ran 10K to 20K.......depending on what the computer told the owner. And if you followed what the computer in the car told you, your warranty remained in effect, no matter the service interval for oil changes.
 
Originally posted by: virtueixi
I don't see how the pcv valve has anything to do with the sludge. Sludge forms when water(usually from coolant) entering the oil or when the oil is cooked. You could use synthetic oil, which is unlikely to form sludge.
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I read an explanation yesterday that cited a faulty PCV valve arrangement, or a failure to change it regularly (it's evidently tucked away someplace unpleasant on siennas) caused the oil buildup.... the article cited above makes no such claim.
It's not clear why the engines are susceptible to sludge buildup, although excessive heat is known to cause oil to become more "goopy," experts quoted by Automotive News said. Some suggested that changes in the design of the cylinder head in the affected engines is causing heat buildup. Others said leaky head gaskets could also be contributing to the problem.
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Originally posted by: CRXican
Honda > Toyota
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Well..... I'm torn on this one at the moment, with regard to their vans. There's things I like about each of them.

If we were talking about an accord versus a camry, well, then there's just no conflict 😀
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Ugh, so much crap in this thread.. 😛

I actually don't know a whole lot about the Toyota sludge issue, except that it is indeed unfortunately an engineering problem.
Originally posted by: virtueixi
I don't see how the pcv valve has anything to do with the sludge. Sludge forms when water(usually from coolant) entering the oil or when the oil is cooked. You could use synthetic oil, which is unlikely to form sludge.
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Sludge can be formed a dozen different ways. Sludge is broken down oil, period.

However, that doesen't mean that some oils aren't better than others.

Does anybody know exactly what causes the oil to break down? Someone mentioned a cam gear, is that the case? If it is an extreme ammount of shear that causes the rapid oil breakdown, there are extremely shear stable oils out there, both synthetic and petroleum. Unfortunately, most of them don't come in xW-30.

If it's temperature, then again there are extremely high temp oils out there, both synthetic and conventional.

If someone can find out exactly what the engineering problem is, I can recommend some oils that would be better than most..
Originally posted by: IamElectro

Please show me where you read this.

My best friend is the servise manager at a local Benz dealership and I quote him.
The max for city driving is 3750 and 5k highway. Although they Mercedes prefers it to be done at 3750. He also stated that Mercedes may and will void your warranty for not using approved fluids and having maintinance done within these guidelines.
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Bullsh!t.

If this is true, the Benz dealership is shady and is in clear violation of the Magnuson-Moss act.
Originally posted by: CFster
What a shame. He's wrong of course. I get it out of the owners manuals of the respective vehicles. Being service manager at a wholesale auction I see these cars frequently (yes, '03s and '04s). With the advent of synthetic motor oils and fuel injection, engines run much leaner (less unburnt fuel in the oil pan) and don't require as frequent oil changes. Actually, Mercedes and BMW use this as a selling point - less often the customer has to be bothered to bring the car in. Ask your friend to show you documentation. 15K miles - its' true. With Mobil 1 of course.

Trust me, there isn't an '04 model ANYTHING out there that requires a 3750 oil change. I challenge YOU to show me proof.

Also, please be aware that it's against federal law for an automaker to void your warranty if you have your vehicle serviced at some place other than a dealer. And, the oil used only has to meet API certification as stated in the owner's manual.

If however, you bring in your car with a sludged engine and have no proof of service than that's another story.

CF
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3750 miles is the standard for "Severe" service. 5,000 miles for "Normal" service, and 7500 miles for light duty use.. at least for the japanese manufacturers. Don't really know about BMW and Benz tho.

Most people are confused by these terms. 95% of driving is considered "severe service". Light duty DOES NOT mean "driven 10 minutes a day". That is severe service, and is very hard on your oil.

If you use a good quality synthetic oil and change it every 3,000 miles, I bet you don't have any problems, but make SURE you find one that has an comprehensive maintenance record history!

Also, where you live has a big impact on the type of oil you should be using...
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Unfortunately, there doesn't seem to be a clear indication of the mechanical problem.
I live in orlando. It's not particularly dusty and there are virtually no hills, but traffic often leaves something to be desired. It's stop and go a lot.
 
It's amazing how people will passionately argue this issue without even bother to look at the f**king manual, for pete's sake. Eli's answer is correct.

BTW, I own a 2000 Sienna, been changing the oil myself (for the most part) since purchased it new. No evidence of sludge, no problems other than a somewhat inconvenient oil filter location-which I attribute to the much vaunted "superior" Japanese engineering.
 
I honestly think everyone who is concerned with this problem need-not worry if they take care of their cars like they are suppose to.
 
Originally posted by: CraigRT
I honestly think everyone who is concerned with this problem need-not worry if they take care of their cars like they are suppose to.
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Thats the problem, and why the OP asked. As a lot of people follow the toyota high mile oil change intervial and do have problems then toyota said it was their fault even though they did what the dealer/sales person said.
 
Originally posted by: Eli
Originally posted by: CFster
From my understanding, it's the oil returns from the head are too small. And when I've pull the valvecovers this seems to be the case - excessive sludge pile up in those areas.

As for the service issue - if you can prove you serviced the car at least every 5000 - 7500 (on most cars - some even more, as I stated above) you won't have a warranty issue. They have no business determining what kind of driving you do.

As a matter of fact, we have a Saab at a dealer for a timing chain noise right now. It's actually the balance shaft chain which has an oil pressurized tensioner. Sludge will cause it to operate incorrectly and the chain will get excessive play in it. The car has 49K on it (just in warranty) - they just needed to see that the car had it's 30k and 40k service.

Another car we've run across with this problem are Nissans with the VQ engines. Timing chain tensioners. BIG problem. If the engine isn't already hopelessly sludged, it's still about a 10 hour job to get in there and replace them (along with the timing chain).

CF
Click to expand...
Engineering aside, that tells me that todays oils are failing to adequately lubricate our modern engines for the specified intervals.....

Either that or it's user error.. lol
Click to expand...

Pushrods and timing GEARS for me. Amsoil/mobile 1 all the way!!
 
Originally posted by: virtueixi
I don't see how the pcv valve has anything to do with the sludge. Sludge forms when water(usually from coolant) entering the oil or when the oil is cooked. You could use synthetic oil, which is unlikely to form sludge.
Click to expand...

Exactly. The PCV valve handles ventilation in the crankcase, not oil. PCV = Positive Crankcase Ventilation.
 
Am I hearing this right? These things lose at least 1/3 of their value in 3 years, and that's considered high resale value? "...it depreciates so slowly in the first few years." 😕
 
Originally posted by: Ornery
Am I hearing this right? These things lose at least 1/3 of their value in 3 years, and that's considered high resale value? "...it depreciates so slowly in the first few years." 😕
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that's cars for you.
 
Well, in the 30 years I've been driving, I've NEVER purchased a new vehicle for this very reason. But, i thought the Japanese econoboxes held their value so well. Pfffttt, big deal if this is the case!
 
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