Toyota sludge

[godmare]

Looking at the Toyota Sienna as a used vehicle choice. Also the Honda Odyssey.
I'm concerned about the sludging that people seem to be having problems with in the 98-02 Sienna, as well as the Avalon, Camry and some others, and am unsure wether this amounts to a maintenance or engineering issue.
I've read a few different explanations for the problems, such as improper oil changing and old PCV valves, as well as engineering complaints related to the breathability of the engines.
In 2/02, Toyota announced a program to reimburse consumers for expenses surrounding the sludging issues, based on some proof of maintenance criteria, and it seems to cover nonoriginal owners as well.
I am not confident in this program to reimburse me as a used car buyer, based on the fact that I will probably have sketchy maintenance records for the first 50k miles or so.

Does this seem to you, atot, a matter of poor design, poor maintenance, or a combination of the two?
Do you think it's simply a matter of never bothering to change the PCV valve?

 

[Pepsi90919]

it's that you have to follow the severe service schedule (3000 miles) in the vehicles, regardless. people were going over it and the oil turned to crap pretty quickly due to the cam gear design, IIRC

 

[Pepsi90919]

eli is an oil nerd, he should be by shortly.

 

[godmare]

Thanks for your insight

 

[godmare]

bumpage

 

[SuperTool]

Are you gelling?
I personally would stay away, not just because of the sludge,but also because Hondas and Toyotas hold resale too good, so it's better to get them new, IMO.
The new Sienna is sweet.

 

[godmare]

Originally posted by: SuperTool
Are you gelling?
I personally would stay away, not just because of the sludge,but also because Hondas and Toyotas hold resale too good, so it's better to get them new, IMO.
The new Sienna is sweet.

Well, I'm looking to spend about $16k in cash, and I'd rather not finance anything at all. It'd be 30 grand for a new Sienna or Odyssey... Thanks for your help, though

 

[acemcmac]

I thought that toyota was fixing this?

My dad has a 98 camry that is listed as one of the affected vehicles but he hasnt had a problem with it yet.... GL YMMV

 

[CFster]

Toyota aren't the only ones with this problem.

 

[virtueixi]

I don't see how the pcv valve has anything to do with the sludge. Sludge forms when water(usually from coolant) entering the oil or when the oil is cooked. You could use synthetic oil, which is unlikely to form sludge.

 

[SuperTool]

Well, you have to look at cost of ownership, not just purchase price. If you buy an odyssey now for 30K, and sell it for 20K in 3 years or you buy a used one now for 20K, and sell it for 10K in 3 years, it cost you the same 10K in depreciation to drive one for 3 years, and you would have the new one under warranty for the whole time. So depreciation curve does matter. Which is why Odyssey may be a better deal new since it depreciates so slowly in the first few years.

 

[Vette73]

Originally posted by: CFster
Toyota aren't the only ones with this problem.

Correct. Honda and Jeep have had problems also. But most of them are caused more by people not changing their oil enough. They keep going every 5... 6..., etc... thousand miles. Yes if all you do is highway milaes or use Mobil1 year round then going 5-6K on MOST cars is OK. But for the other 90%+ every 3K is cheap insurance.


So get the service records and see how they did the maintaince and then go by that and their driving habits.

 

[CFster]

You wouldn't believe how many I see in my line of work (wholesale auto).

Dodges, Jeeps, Saabs, Toyotas, VWs etc.

It's all because of leasing. People figure if they don't own the car, then they shouldn't have to service it. I've seen so many cars with 35K+ miles with the original oil filters on them - it's disgusting.

BTW - there isn't a car out there that requires service every 3K miles. That went out in mid eighties with carbs. 5K is sufficient, even on dino oil. 7.5K or 10K on synthetic, if you're doing a lot highway driving.

Actually, a lot of new cars (BMW, Mercedes) are recommending first oil changes at 15K miles, and every 15K after.

 

[ThisIsMatt]

From what I've heard it's an engineering issue and even people that have changed their oil every 3k have had the problems.

 

[CFster]

I heard a lot of explanations.

I've seen many examples of the same model, same miles, that were serviced the same way with entirely different results. (When you work for a place that sells 200,000 cars a year this is easy)

Who knows...

 

[Lvis]

Originally posted by: ThisIsMatt
From what I've heard it's an engineering issue and even people that have changed their oil every 3k have had the problems.

I read about this somewhere, too. I wouldn't buy one of the affected engines.

 

[CRXican]

Honda > Toyota

 

[etech]

Edmunds

Search on sludge.

That should keep you busy for a couple of hours.

 

[IamElectro]

Originally posted by: CFster
You wouldn't believe how many I see in my line of work (wholesale auto).

Dodges, Jeeps, Saabs, Toyotas, VWs etc.

It's all because of leasing. People figure if they don't own the car, then they shouldn't have to service it. I've seen so many cars with 35K+ miles with the original oil filters on them - it's disgusting.

BTW - there isn't a car out there that requires service every 3K miles. That went out in mid eighties with carbs. 5K is sufficient, even on dino oil. 7.5K or 10K on synthetic, if you're doing a lot highway driving.

Changing the oil at 3k miles is cheap insurance on the most exspensive part in a car.

Actually, a lot of new cars (BMW, Mercedes) are recommending first oil changes at 15K miles, and every 15K after.

Please show me where you read this.

My best friend is the servise manager at a local Benz dealership and I quote him.
The max for city driving is 3750 and 5k highway. Although they Mercedes prefers it to be done at 3750. He also stated that Mercedes may and will void your warranty for not using approved fluids and having maintinance done within these guidelines.

 

[Triumph]

The oil sludge issue is most certainly not just a lack-of-servicing problem. It is an engineering problem. People who followed the service interval religiously still got sludge. And most other cars can go well past 3000 miles without sludging. The Toyota was designed with very little to no margin, which is just plain poor engineering. Toyota's handling of the problem hasn't been the best either, mostly blaming it on the customers.

OMG but TOyotA can do no wrong!! There cars run 4 ever!!!

 

[CFster]

Originally posted by: IamElectro

Originally posted by: CFster
You wouldn't believe how many I see in my line of work (wholesale auto).

Dodges, Jeeps, Saabs, Toyotas, VWs etc.

It's all because of leasing. People figure if they don't own the car, then they shouldn't have to service it. I've seen so many cars with 35K+ miles with the original oil filters on them - it's disgusting.

BTW - there isn't a car out there that requires service every 3K miles. That went out in mid eighties with carbs. 5K is sufficient, even on dino oil. 7.5K or 10K on synthetic, if you're doing a lot highway driving.

Changing the oil at 3k miles is cheap insurance on the most exspensive part in a car.

Actually, a lot of new cars (BMW, Mercedes) are recommending first oil changes at 15K miles, and every 15K after.

Please show me where you read this.

My best friend is the servise manager at a local Benz dealership and I quote him.
The max for city driving is 3750 and 5k highway. Although they Mercedes prefers it to be done at 3750. He also stated that Mercedes may and will void your warranty for not using approved fluids and having maintinance done within these guidelines.

What a shame. He's wrong of course. I get it out of the owners manuals of the respective vehicles. Being service manager at a wholesale auction I see these cars frequently (yes, '03s and '04s). With the advent of synthetic motor oils and fuel injection, engines run much leaner (less unburnt fuel in the oil pan) and don't require as frequent oil changes. Actually, Mercedes and BMW use this as a selling point - less often the customer has to be bothered to bring the car in. Ask your friend to show you documentation. 15K miles - its' true. With Mobil 1 of course.

Trust me, there isn't an '04 model ANYTHING out there that requires a 3750 oil change. I challenge YOU to show me proof.

Also, please be aware that it's against federal law for an automaker to void your warranty if you have your vehicle serviced at some place other than a dealer. And, the oil used only has to meet API certification as stated in the owner's manual.

If however, you bring in your car with a sludged engine and have no proof of service than that's another story.

CF

 

[RaymondY]

Just purchased a used 2000 Toyota Sienna recently. Was also concerned about the sludging issue, but talked with my brother who has a friend who works for a Toyota dealership. He basically told me to change the oil every 3k miles.

 

[CFster]

On those Toyotas with problems, sure. And that's for peace of mind. The owners manuals don't say it.

But there isn't an '04 model car that requires it.

 

[Vette73]

Toyota sludge , now change your damm oil

 

[Eli]

Ugh, so much crap in this thread..

I actually don't know a whole lot about the Toyota sludge issue, except that it is indeed unfortunately an engineering problem.

Originally posted by: virtueixi
I don't see how the pcv valve has anything to do with the sludge. Sludge forms when water(usually from coolant) entering the oil or when the oil is cooked. You could use synthetic oil, which is unlikely to form sludge.

Sludge can be formed a dozen different ways. Sludge is broken down oil, period.

However, that doesen't mean that some oils aren't better than others.

Does anybody know exactly what causes the oil to break down? Someone mentioned a cam gear, is that the case? If it is an extreme ammount of shear that causes the rapid oil breakdown, there are extremely shear stable oils out there, both synthetic and petroleum. Unfortunately, most of them don't come in xW-30.

If it's temperature, then again there are extremely high temp oils out there, both synthetic and conventional.

If someone can find out exactly what the engineering problem is, I can recommend some oils that would be better than most..

Originally posted by: IamElectro

Please show me where you read this.

My best friend is the servise manager at a local Benz dealership and I quote him.
The max for city driving is 3750 and 5k highway. Although they Mercedes prefers it to be done at 3750. He also stated that Mercedes may and will void your warranty for not using approved fluids and having maintinance done within these guidelines.

Bullsh!t.

If this is true, the Benz dealership is shady and is in clear violation of the Magnuson-Moss act.

Originally posted by: CFster
What a shame. He's wrong of course. I get it out of the owners manuals of the respective vehicles. Being service manager at a wholesale auction I see these cars frequently (yes, '03s and '04s). With the advent of synthetic motor oils and fuel injection, engines run much leaner (less unburnt fuel in the oil pan) and don't require as frequent oil changes. Actually, Mercedes and BMW use this as a selling point - less often the customer has to be bothered to bring the car in. Ask your friend to show you documentation. 15K miles - its' true. With Mobil 1 of course.

Trust me, there isn't an '04 model ANYTHING out there that requires a 3750 oil change. I challenge YOU to show me proof.

Also, please be aware that it's against federal law for an automaker to void your warranty if you have your vehicle serviced at some place other than a dealer. And, the oil used only has to meet API certification as stated in the owner's manual.

If however, you bring in your car with a sludged engine and have no proof of service than that's another story.

CF

3750 miles is the standard for "Severe" service. 5,000 miles for "Normal" service, and 7500 miles for light duty use.. at least for the japanese manufacturers. Don't really know about BMW and Benz tho.

Most people are confused by these terms. 95% of driving is considered "severe service". Light duty DOES NOT mean "driven 10 minutes a day". That is severe service, and is very hard on your oil.

If you use a good quality synthetic oil and change it every 3,000 miles, I bet you don't have any problems, but make SURE you find one that has an comprehensive maintenance record history!

Also, where you live has a big impact on the type of oil you should be using...