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Toyota Rethinks Hybrid Strategy

NFS4

No Lifer
http://www.thecarconnection.com/Industr...thinks_Hybrid_Strategy.S175.A8928.html

For Toyota, it's a question of whether the tank is half-empty or half-full. The automaker is the unquestionable leader in the fast-growing U.S. hybrid-electric vehicle market. But HEVs are coming under increasing criticism for failing to deliver the sort of mileage manufacturers like Toyota are promising.

The Japanese automaker's Prius has become the world's best-selling hybrid, while the U.S. has become Toyota's biggest market for the gas-electric midsize sedan, accounting for about 60 percent of worldwide Prius sales. With additional hybrids coming into production, such as the recently launched Lexus RX400h, Toyota is looking to sell one million hybrids annually by 2010, according to Don Esmond, senior vice president of automotive operations for Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc., and "if you put a pencil to that, (the U.S.) would be doing 600,000."

The question is what it will take to get there. While the recent run-up in U.S. fuel prices has made the economic equation for hybrids increasingly attractive, that may not be enough to nurture a truly mass market. And in the coming years, Toyota and its Lexus luxury arm are likely to shift focus to expand the appeal of HEVs, according to senior company officials.

After a slow and uncertain start, many analysts have come to agree that hybrids are gaining momentum, aided in part by the run-up in U.S. fuel prices. But other observers remain skeptical.

"We see the general desire for these types of vehicles growing," said Jeff Martini, vice president of the Polk Center for Automotive Studies. "However, the compelling argument to actually buy one has to be made more strongly," he added.

Critics contend that the cost of hybrid hardware - generally adding $4000 to $9000 to the price of a comparable gasoline-only vehicle - is difficult to offset through increased mileage, even with $2.50-a-gallon gasoline. "When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified," acknowledged Kazuo Okamoto, the new head of R&D for Toyota Motor Co., in a recent interview with London's Financial Times.

The equation is only more off-balance when real-world, rather than promised, mileage is taken into account. While Toyota claims Prius gets close to 60 miles per gallon, consumers report it more typically delivers around 40 mpg. Esmond admitted there is a notable fuel economy gap, but insisted it is the result of government tests automakers rely on, rather than any attempt by Toyota to mislead its customers.

And indeed, other hybrid manufacturers, such as Honda, concede similar discrepancies. But none of the HEV makers is willing to provide a more realistic figure, said Honda planning director Dan Bonawitz, because the higher numbers are "a competitive advantage."

Perhaps, but the growing chorus of complaints could sour current and potential owners, some analysts warn. And as a result, manufacturers are looking at other ways to boost the appeal of hybrids. Honda, for example, has been emphasizing the higher performance of its Accord Hybrid, which launches from 0-60 a full half-second faster than the conventional V-6 Accord.

Lexus is also promoting the performance of its RX400h, and the luxury unit's next hybrid could usher in an entirely new line of high-performance HEVs, said the Toyota division's new general manager, Bob Carter. A final decision has not yet been made, but Lexus engineers are developing a distinctly different version of the Toyota Synergy Drive used in the Prius.

Next year's GS450h is expected to feel more like a conventional sports sedan, with a mix of software and hardware changes meant to replicate the feel of a conventional sedan going through rapid gear changes.

"You may see Toyota and Lexus going in two very different directions," Carter told TheCarConnection.com during an interview in California.

But even the Toyota division will put more of an emphasis on performance, added Esmond, during the same interview. It will put more emphasis on the other advantages of hybrid technology, such as the significant reduction in emissions, including the greenhouse gas, CO2.

While hybrids are taking some heat right now, analyst Jim Hall, of AutoPacific, Inc., doesn't foresee a serious backlash over mileage. There are "plenty of other reasons" why they'll continue to gain ground in the U.S. market, he said. In some states, hybrid owners gain access to carpool lanes, even while driving alone. Several cities now let HEVs park without paying at meters. And then there's what Hall calls "the cool factor."

For some Prius buyers, the biggest plus is the positive feedback they get driving their distinctive vehicles down the street. Ironically, Lexus seemed to miss that point with the RX400h. The most common complaint, said Esmond, is not mileage, but the fact that the gas-electric SUV is almost indistinguishable from a conventional RX330. "They want us to badge this thing so people know they are driving a hybrid," said Esmond. (Honda officials admit they've had similar complaints about their Accord and Civic hybrids.)

Toyota is in the midst of a major internal debate over whether it should produce more hybrid-only models, such as Prius, or continue offering hybrid options for its mainstream models. Whatever the ultimate decision, future Toyota and Lexus HEVs will be much more distinctive, Esmond promised.
 
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?
 
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.
 
2005 Toyota Prius - $27,000 - 40 MPG
1999 Dodge Stratus - $4,000 - 35 MPG

I think I'll hang on to my Stratus. It'll even go up a hill without resuscitation.
 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

Did the article not state that fuel efficiency (by their own admission) was at 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg?
A 3 cylinder Geo pulls in 50+ MPG.
I smell a technology fart.
 
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

Did the article not state that fuel efficiency (by their own admission) was at 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg?
A 3 cylinder Geo pulls in 50+ MPG.
I smell a technology fart.
First of all, you need better reading comprehension skills. He said that he acknowledged a mileage gap...not a 20MPG gap. By all accounts, most Prius drivers (who aren't lead foots) are averaging around 50MPG.

Secondly, tell me where you can buy a brand new Geo Metro that goes 0-60 in 10 seconds, can seat 5 plus luggage, and meet federal crash standards?

The Metro died a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

Thirdly, the only real competition to hybrids like the Prius and Civic is the Jetta Diesel.
 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

Did the article not state that fuel efficiency (by their own admission) was at 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg?
A 3 cylinder Geo pulls in 50+ MPG.
I smell a technology fart.

Tell me where you can buy a brand new Geo Metro that goes 0-60 in 10 seconds, can seat 5 plus luggage, and meet federal crash standards?

The Metro died a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

The only real competition to hybrids like the Prius and Civic is the Jetta Diesel.
You must have missed my earlier comment about my 99 Stratus. 🙂
By admission of the automaker, the Prius gets 40 MPG.
My Stratus gets 35 MPG regularly (loaded with equipment for 2 ball teams, my fat ass, a cooler full of pop and ice, and a couple kids), a little more on the highway.
I'd like to try a Prius to see what it'd do stacked up against my Stratus.

Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of hybrids and would like to own one.
I'd like to own one based on fact though, not on bullshyt.

Yes, the Metro was a horrid POS, just like the Yugo. It delivered amazing economy, just as it stated it would.
The Prius does not deliver economy as it says it would.
It's a marginal accomplishment at best, ie the technology fart comment I made earlier.

Turbo diesel technology will win out. Mark my words.
Multifuel, high mileage, power, it's got it all.

 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

Did the article not state that fuel efficiency (by their own admission) was at 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg?
A 3 cylinder Geo pulls in 50+ MPG.
I smell a technology fart.
First of all, you need better reading comprehension skills. He said that he acknowledged a mileage gap...not a 20MPG gap. By all accounts, most Prius drivers (who aren't lead foots) are averaging around 50MPG.

Secondly, tell me where you can buy a brand new Geo Metro that goes 0-60 in 10 seconds, can seat 5 plus luggage, and meet federal crash standards?

The Metro died a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

Thirdly, the only real competition to hybrids like the Prius and Civic is the Jetta Diesel.
It doesn't take a whole bunch of reading comprehension to analyze this...
"While Toyota claims Prius gets close to 60 miles per gallon, consumers report it more typically delivers around 40 mpg".
😉
 
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

Did the article not state that fuel efficiency (by their own admission) was at 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg?
A 3 cylinder Geo pulls in 50+ MPG.
I smell a technology fart.
First of all, you need better reading comprehension skills. He said that he acknowledged a mileage gap...not a 20MPG gap. By all accounts, most Prius drivers (who aren't lead foots) are averaging around 50MPG.

Secondly, tell me where you can buy a brand new Geo Metro that goes 0-60 in 10 seconds, can seat 5 plus luggage, and meet federal crash standards?

The Metro died a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

Thirdly, the only real competition to hybrids like the Prius and Civic is the Jetta Diesel.
It doesn't take a whole bunch of reading comprehension to analyze this...
"While Toyota claims Prius gets close to 60 miles per gallon, consumers report it more typically delivers around 40 mpg".
😉

Idiots who drive a Prius like it's a rocket ship will get 40MPG. Owners who know how to leverage the advantage of a hybrid powertrain get ~50

Driving a hybrid is not like driving a convential car and hence certain things that you may be accustomed to do in a regular car might net you less mileage in a hybrid. If you're not smart enough to figure that out, you deserve to get poor mileage 😀
 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: shilala
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

Did the article not state that fuel efficiency (by their own admission) was at 40 mpg rather than 60 mpg?
A 3 cylinder Geo pulls in 50+ MPG.
I smell a technology fart.
First of all, you need better reading comprehension skills. He said that he acknowledged a mileage gap...not a 20MPG gap. By all accounts, most Prius drivers (who aren't lead foots) are averaging around 50MPG.

Secondly, tell me where you can buy a brand new Geo Metro that goes 0-60 in 10 seconds, can seat 5 plus luggage, and meet federal crash standards?

The Metro died a LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONG time ago.

Thirdly, the only real competition to hybrids like the Prius and Civic is the Jetta Diesel.
It doesn't take a whole bunch of reading comprehension to analyze this...
"While Toyota claims Prius gets close to 60 miles per gallon, consumers report it more typically delivers around 40 mpg".
😉

Idiots who drive a Prius like it's a rocket ship will get 40MPG. Owners who know how to leverage the advantage of a hybrid powertrain get ~50

Driving a hybrid is not like driving a convential car and hence certain things that you may be accustomed to do in a regular car might net you less mileage in a hybrid. If you're not smart enough to figure that out, you deserve to get poor mileage 😀
I get your point.
I drive my Stratus like a rocketship and it still gets 35 MPG.
When I run it 75ish on the interstate, it does 36.5 to 37.

I think what the article intends to do is to inject some honesty into what had been a chronic litany of bullshyt purveyed on the public.

The "value" is missing in the Prius. Well, maybe not missing, but it sure comes up short.

I'd really like to see some "real world" numbers as to how it would do here in the mountains. I'd like to hear how quiet it is.
I really don't believe Toyota achieved what they set out to do. It's a shame.
I do believe they are on the right track, but I don't think the the technological approach they are taking will ever deliver anything much more than a marginal improvement.

If they were to market it as a marginal improvement, and as a "greener" automobile, and let folks make their decision based on the fact that they are at least "doing something for the sake of the earth", I'd be lodged firmly in their corner.

Marketing the Prius as the second coming of Christ is simply wrong, misleading and dishonest.

 
Originally posted by: shilala

I get your point.
I drive my Stratus like a rocketship and it still gets 35 MPG.
When I run it 75ish on the interstate, it does 36.5 to 37.

I think what the article intends to do is to inject some honesty into what had been a chronic litany of bullshyt purveyed on the public.

The "value" is missing in the Prius. Well, maybe not missing, but it sure comes up short.

I'd really like to see some "real world" numbers as to how it would do here in the mountains. I'd like to hear how quiet it is.
I really don't believe Toyota achieved what they set out to do. It's a shame.
I do believe they are on the right track, but I don't think the the technological approach they are taking will ever deliver anything much more than a marginal improvement.

If they were to market it as a marginal improvement, and as a "greener" automobile, and let folks make their decision based on the fact that they are at least "doing something for the sake of the earth", I'd be lodged firmly in their corner.

Marketing the Prius as the second coming of Christ is simply wrong, misleading and dishonest.

But the problem isn't with Toyota, it's with the government. In governmental testing the Prius DOES INDEED get 60MPG. But that test is old and outdated. But Toyota is publishing what the government will only allow them to publish...and those are the results of government-backed mileage testing patterns.

Just so happens that hybrids benefit GREATLY from this method of testing and hence Toyota benefits as far as marketing goes.

So you can blame Toyota all they want, but the government is truly to blame...Toyota is just taking advantage of it 😀
 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: lobadobadingdong
Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
"When you just use the argument of fuel efficiency, the purchase of a hybrid car is not justified,"

Um.......ok.
well it isn't. if it costs you $4000 to save $250-300 in gas a year (for an average driver), how long will it take to justify the cost for fuel efficiency?

You can argue the cost, but you can't argue the FUEL efficiency.

But they really aren't that fuel efficient either.... really getting 40mpg and not 60. Plus how long will that battery last? It will have to go to a dump and be replaced for a LARGE amount of cash in a few years probably.
 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Originally posted by: shilala

I get your point.
I drive my Stratus like a rocketship and it still gets 35 MPG.
When I run it 75ish on the interstate, it does 36.5 to 37.

I think what the article intends to do is to inject some honesty into what had been a chronic litany of bullshyt purveyed on the public.

The "value" is missing in the Prius. Well, maybe not missing, but it sure comes up short.

I'd really like to see some "real world" numbers as to how it would do here in the mountains. I'd like to hear how quiet it is.
I really don't believe Toyota achieved what they set out to do. It's a shame.
I do believe they are on the right track, but I don't think the the technological approach they are taking will ever deliver anything much more than a marginal improvement.

If they were to market it as a marginal improvement, and as a "greener" automobile, and let folks make their decision based on the fact that they are at least "doing something for the sake of the earth", I'd be lodged firmly in their corner.

Marketing the Prius as the second coming of Christ is simply wrong, misleading and dishonest.

But the problem isn't with Toyota, it's with the government. In governmental testing the Prius DOES INDEED get 60MPG. But that test is old and outdated. But Toyota is publishing what the government will only allow them to publish...and those are the results of government-backed mileage testing patterns.

Just so happens that hybrids benefit GREATLY from this method of testing and hence Toyota benefits as far as marketing goes.

So you can blame Toyota all they want, but the government is truly to blame...Toyota is just taking advantage of it 😀

The article mentions that some of the automakers concede that the numbers, although not contrived, are inaccurate. That's certainly commendable.
Inaccurate mileage ratings are not new, and lying to sell cars is certainly not new.
I did enjoy the new spin where lying is now called "marketing advantage".

So far as "blame" goes...
I'm not looking for blame, but the government didn't sell anyone a car.

I sincerely hope that the technology can catch up with the claims.
That'd be where I'd become pliable enough to consider buying one.
 
Originally posted by: NFS4
Driving a hybrid is not like driving a convential car and hence certain things that you may be accustomed to do in a regular car might net you less mileage in a hybrid. If you're not smart enough to figure that out, you deserve to get poor mileage 😀

Can you explain how to drive a hybrid and how it differs from a conventional car?
 
My sister drives a Prius and gets ~56 mpg and while she may not be a leadfoot, she is by no means the little old lady from Pasadena. She has gotten a few speeding tickets in her Prius. The mileage you get depends greatly on where you drive the vehicle. Since she is in Houston she does a lot of city driving. With the Prius, the more city driving you do, the better your mileage tends to be. It is the reverse of gas only cars where they get better mileage on the highway than in the city. So the car must be able to draw more mileage from the technology fart you speak of, afterall methane is a fuel 😉

As for your Stratus, it's a good thing you got a 1999 because that car never got above 30 mpg again until 2004 when it made it to 32. Those numbers are all highway. Even your year model was rated at 26 mpg in the city.
 
Hybrid = scam. Toyota's ingenius plan to sell a high-profit vehicle that improves their CAFE numbers.

Otherwise, the slight increase in fuel efficiency of a hybrid is not enough to offset the dramatically increased cost of acquistion, the increased fuel cost to manufacture a hybrid is greater than the relative fuel savings of the vehicle's entire service life, and the hybrid's batteries are a future environmental nightmare in the making.
 
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