Toyota forcasts $8.6Billion Loss

MikeMike

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Feb 6, 2000
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Automotive News | May 8, 2009 - 2:31 am EST


TOKYO (Reuters) -- Toyota Motor Corp., the world's biggest automaker, forecast a much bigger-than-expected $8.6 billion loss for its current fiscal year and said it would sell about 1 million fewer vehicles as it scrambles to cut costs amid a severe market downturn.

The global crisis that has battered demand for cars and pushed U.S. rival Chrysler into bankruptcy has hit Toyota hard, reversing its rapid expansion into overcapacity almost overnight. Dozens of its factories stand half idle.

The Japanese giant made the forecast as it posted its first-ever annual consolidated operating loss, for the fiscal year that ended March 31, after a record profit the year before.

In the January-March fourth quarter, Toyota booked a $6.9 billion loss, in line with consensus estimates, and cut its annual dividend nearly 30 percent -- the first cut since at least 1994, when it changed its reporting period.

While the entire industry is caught in the slump and seeking to offload cars piled up in stockyards, Toyota has been especially vulnerable due to its exposure to the United States and Japan, where sales have plunged to multi-decade lows.

Even in China, Toyota has bucked the market's rise with a fall so far this year.

"Toyota's outlook was worse than I'd expected. The company expects a really tough time for the first six months," said Naoki Fujiwara, a fund manager at Shinkin Asset Management. "I expect the bottom for the auto industry is the April-June period, followed by a slow recovery."

Toyota President Katsuaki Watanabe was more downbeat, stopping short of predicting when sales would pick up in major markets, or when the company would return to profitability as it remains saddled with excess capacity.

"Of course the external environment doesn't help, but we were lacking in the scope and speed of dealing with various problems and issues, and for that I am sorry," he told a news conference.

For the year to next March, the maker of the Prius hybrid forecast an operating loss of 850 billion yen, more than double the average forecast in a survey of 20 analysts by Thomson Reuters. It sees an annual net loss of 550 billion yen based on the dollar and euro averaging 95 yen and 125 yen.

The bleak forecasts prompted ratings agency Standard & Poor's to downgrade Toyota's long-term debt ratings to AA from AA+, with a negative outlook.

14% sales decline

Toyota said it expected its global sales, including units Daihatsu Motor Co. and Hino Motors Ltd. but excluding cars sold by joint ventures in China, to fall about 14 percent in 2009-2010 to 6.5 million vehicles.

Watanabe said that would knock 800 billion yen off the operating level this year, which Toyota aims to offset with cost cuts. The bigger loss forecast this year is otherwise due to a stronger yen, he said.

To return to profit, Toyota must sell more cars or cut costs further, Watanabe said. But he predicted the U.S. market would be around 10 million vehicles industrywide at best this year, down from 13.2 million in 2008 and 16.2 million the previous year.

Toyota is hoping the launch this year of a third-generation Prius will ease some of its sales slide and production cuts, even though it is cutting the price of the popular model to bring it closer to Honda's new Insight hybrid, meaning its contribution to profits would be smaller than planned.

Toyota may also benefit from the expected introduction of a ?cash-for-clunkers? sales incentive in Japan.

Capital spending slashed

Toyota is bleeding overhead costs, with about a third of its global assembly lines working on single shifts. It will slash capital spending by more than a third this year to 830 billion yen as it puts expansion projects on hold, but it said it was not thinking of closing any production lines for good.

Toyota reported a January-March net loss of 765.8 billion yen, against a year-earlier profit of 316.8 billion yen.

Domestic rival Honda Motor Co. last week forecast a small profit for this year thanks to its relatively healthy motorcycle business.

"Compared with Honda, (Toyota) has a lot of larger models and a lot of excess capacity globally," said Koichi Ogawa, chief portfolio manager at Daiwa SB Investments. "By 2010, cost cutting and capacity reduction may be taking effect, so they could break even then."

Other big automakers are also struggling.

General Motors on Thursday reported a quarterly net loss of $6 billion and said it burned through more than $10 billion as it relied on a federal bailout to ride out the sharp sales decline.

Japan's Fuji Heavy Industries Ltd., in which Toyota has a 16.5 percent stake, forecast its annual operating loss could balloon to 35 billion yen this year from 5.8 billion yen in 2008-2009, citing weak global car sales.

Well, i guess that is what happens when you massively increase your capacity in the US for trucks (Tundra) and SUVs by building new plants and then the SUV market bottoms out, followed by the complete car market just crumbling...
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
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Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.
 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
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Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

Interesting to note that GM and Fold outsold Toyota for the month (at least in the US). Toyota also lost more money in the quarter than GM. Nobody must want Toyota cars either (at least in the US). :D
 

spidey07

No Lifer
Aug 4, 2000
65,469
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Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Umm, have you been paying attention to Toyota's capital investments over the last 5 years? They have all been for truck/suv plants and motors. The last two assembly plants they built were for a truck and an SUV.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
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Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

/taps sarcasm meter...... is this thing on?

If you think GM has simply 'not been making cars people want', you haven't been paying attention. This isn't 1993.
 

MikeMike

Lifer
Feb 6, 2000
45,885
66
91
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Umm, have you been paying attention to Toyota's capital investments over the last 5 years? They have all been for truck/suv plants and motors. The last two assembly plants they built were for a truck and an SUV.

Thanks for bringing light to my original point... EVERYONE was going to SUV'S and making major investments... Look at Kia with the Borrego... While they were late, Toyota had already taken the now dubious task of building up major new factories for their large vehicles... The sudden loss in all sales just destroyed their SUV idea... They do have fairly adaptable, but it will take them a few quarters to get it done... It was once all fun and games...
 

tk149

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Apr 3, 2002
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Honda eked out a profit and expects to remain profitable

Honda Reports Slight Profit for Fiscal Year
By HIROKO TABUCHI
Published: April 28, 2009
TOKYO ? Honda Motor lost $1.9 billion in its latest financial quarter but eked out a net profit for the year that ended in March, setting itself apart from Chrysler and General Motors, the Detroit automakers that are fighting for survival, as well as Toyota, which predicts a deep loss this year.

Like other carmakers, Honda has been squeezed by the global economic slowdown as plunging sales and surging inventories have forced it to cut back on production. But its lineup of cheaper cars, a robust motorcycle business and aggressive cost-cutting have helped Honda, the second-largest Japanese automaker by sales, after Toyota, fare relatively better amid recent difficulties.

Honda, the maker of the Accord and Civic models, swung to a net loss of ¥186.1 billion in the January-to-March quarter from a profit of ¥25.43 billion a year earlier. For the year that ended March 31, Honda booked a profit of ¥137 billion, down 77 percent from the previous year but beating forecasts.

Honda also said it expected to stay profitable for the current year, defying forecasts that the automaker could plunge to the first annual loss since its founding in 1948. But profit for the year ending in March 2010 could fall to ¥10 billion on continued weakness in its key markets, the United States and Japan, the automaker said.

Honda?s U.S. sales dipped 36 percent in March to little more than 88,000 vehicles, in line with an industrywide decline.

Still, Honda stands to bounce back more quickly than its rivals because of a product range that centers on compact cars and hybrids, which is more in line with consumer trends than those of Detroit automakers ? or even Toyota, which has forayed into larger vehicles.

Toyota, the world?s biggest automaker by unit sales, expects to book its first-ever annual net loss for the year that ended in March.

Honda is also hoping to increase revenue this year with the Insight, a new, low-cost hybrid vehicle introduced in March that could challenge the leading model in the hybrid market, the Toyota Prius. Toyota has said it would cut prices on its next Prius models to compete better with the Insight.

In Japan, Honda could see a further jump in sales from a ?cash for clunkers? incentive introduced by the government this month. Under the economic stimulus program, car owners who upgrade to ?green? vehicles from cars that are at least 13 years old will receive government subsidies. The U.S. government is considering a similar program.

Honda has been aggressive in cutting costs as the economic crisis has taken hold, firing factory workers and selling off its prized Formula 1 racing team. This year, it plans to scale back capital spending by more than a third to preserve cash.

Even before the slowdown, Honda had one of the leanest production setups in the industry, focusing on a limited number of models. The automaker has about 30 vehicle platforms, fewer than half the number at Toyota. It limits the cars it produces overseas to strategic models like the Fit and Civic, which allows it to hold down costs.

Meanwhile, Honda?s motorcycle business, the world?s largest, has helped the company weather the downturn. Motorcycle sales contributed about 60 percent of its operating profit last year. Strong sales of its compact cars in China are also buoying Honda?s prospects.

?We think small cars, fuel-efficient vehicles and consumption in emerging nations will drive recovery at Honda Motor,? said Takashi Nakamichi, a Tokyo-based analyst at J.P. Morgan. ?Its factory break-even points are low, while problems of excess production capacity are relatively mild.?

Still, a stronger yen, having gained about 10 percent against the dollar in the past quarter, could weigh on earnings at Honda. A rise in the value of the yen inflates production costs at home and erodes the value of overseas earnings.

Separately, Honda said Tuesday it would invest $26 million in Pioneer, the struggling Japanese electronics supplier. Honda already procures car navigation systems from Pioneer, which is exiting the flat-panel television business to focus on developing electronics for the auto industry.

Shares in Honda, which have risen 32 percent this year, fell 2.4 percent on the Tokyo Stock Exchange before earnings were released, in line with a broader market slump.
 

Ktulu

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Dec 16, 2000
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Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

/taps sarcasm meter...... is this thing on?

If you think GM has simply 'not been making cars people want', you haven't been paying attention. This isn't 1993.

ROFL, you might want to replace the batteries in your sarcasm meter, my post was heavy with it.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,743
6,317
126
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

Before the downturn, what you said was absolutely the case for the Big 3. For a number of years in fact. Toyota was doing more than fine, because its' bread and butter was more in tune with what people wanted.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,743
6,317
126
Originally posted by: MIKEMIKE
Originally posted by: spidey07
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Umm, have you been paying attention to Toyota's capital investments over the last 5 years? They have all been for truck/suv plants and motors. The last two assembly plants they built were for a truck and an SUV.

Thanks for bringing light to my original point... EVERYONE was going to SUV'S and making major investments... Look at Kia with the Borrego... While they were late, Toyota had already taken the now dubious task of building up major new factories for their large vehicles... The sudden loss in all sales just destroyed their SUV idea... They do have fairly adaptable, but it will take them a few quarters to get it done... It was once all fun and games...

They were, simply because it was the last segment of the Market many had no presence in. Despite that, they had the other Market segments well covered and were not abandoning them.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

Before the downturn, what you said was absolutely the case for the Big 3. For a number of years in fact. Toyota was doing more than fine, because its' bread and butter was more in tune with what people wanted.

Well apparently people wanted trucks and SUV's too which is why Toyota started making so many of them. The problem is Toyota spread it self to far and to thin. Quality slumped and people are starting to see that.
Toyota's are just another brand now.
 
Aug 23, 2000
15,509
1
81
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

You can't admit that Toyota screwed the pooch can you? The Tundra has been a failure for them. They also expanded heavily into the Truck/SUV/Van market:
4 Runner, Rav4, Highlander, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, FJ Cruiser, Tundra, Tacoma, Sienna
While in cars they have: Carolla, Matrix, Prius, Camry, Avalon, Yaris, Venza
So they actually have 2 more SUV/Truck/Vans than they do car models. So they have less fuel "efficient" models than they have fuel guzzlers.
 

MovingTarget

Diamond Member
Jun 22, 2003
9,002
115
106
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: MovingTarget
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

/taps sarcasm meter...... is this thing on?

If you think GM has simply 'not been making cars people want', you haven't been paying attention. This isn't 1993.

ROFL, you might want to replace the batteries in your sarcasm meter, my post was heavy with it.

Thanks, at least I have confirmation. Carry on! :beer:
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,743
6,317
126
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

You can't admit that Toyota screwed the pooch can you? The Tundra has been a failure for them. They also expanded heavily into the Truck/SUV/Van market:
4 Runner, Rav4, Highlander, Sequoia, Land Cruiser, FJ Cruiser, Tundra, Tacoma, Sienna
While in cars they have: Carolla, Matrix, Prius, Camry, Avalon, Yaris, Venza
So they actually have 2 more SUV/Truck/Vans than they do car models. So they have less fuel "efficient" models than they have fuel guzzlers.

The Economy screwed Toyota. Just like it's screwing everyone. Have they made some mistakes, sure, but they pale in comparison to the Economic downturn.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,743
6,317
126
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

Before the downturn, what you said was absolutely the case for the Big 3. For a number of years in fact. Toyota was doing more than fine, because its' bread and butter was more in tune with what people wanted.

Well apparently people wanted trucks and SUV's too which is why Toyota started making so many of them. The problem is Toyota spread it self to far and to thin. Quality slumped and people are starting to see that.
Toyota's are just another brand now.

Negative.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

Before the downturn, what you said was absolutely the case for the Big 3. For a number of years in fact. Toyota was doing more than fine, because its' bread and butter was more in tune with what people wanted.

Well apparently people wanted trucks and SUV's too which is why Toyota started making so many of them. The problem is Toyota spread it self to far and to thin. Quality slumped and people are starting to see that.
Toyota's are just another brand now.

Negative.


So Toyota didn't heavily invest in plants in Texas for their new Tundras and Sequoias, as well as invest heavily in their other SUV just before the economic downturn to meet the demands of the consumer? :confused:
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,743
6,317
126
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski
Mostly just Market in general. Their choice of Vehicles have very little to do with it.

Unless you're GM, in which case it has nothing to do with the market and everything to do with them not making cars people want.

Before the downturn, what you said was absolutely the case for the Big 3. For a number of years in fact. Toyota was doing more than fine, because its' bread and butter was more in tune with what people wanted.

Well apparently people wanted trucks and SUV's too which is why Toyota started making so many of them. The problem is Toyota spread it self to far and to thin. Quality slumped and people are starting to see that.
Toyota's are just another brand now.

Negative.


So Toyota didn't heavily invest in plants in Texas for their new Tundras and Sequoias, as well as invest heavily in their other SUV just before the economic downturn to meet the demands of the consumer? :confused:

They spent money, sure. It still pales compared to the Economic Downturn. How many times do I have to say it?? Look at the Industry, everyone is hurting bad.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski


They spent money, sure. It still pales compared to the Economic Downturn. How many times do I have to say it?? Look at the Industry, everyone is hurting bad.

Nobody is denying that everyone else is hurting as well, but the amount of money that Toyota is losing is Big 3 numbers. Why isn't anyone else posting ~$8billion losses? Just admit it, they made some bad moves too. It's ok, so they're not the perfect company, big whoop.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,743
6,317
126
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski


They spent money, sure. It still pales compared to the Economic Downturn. How many times do I have to say it?? Look at the Industry, everyone is hurting bad.

Nobody is denying that everyone else is hurting as well, but the amount of money that Toyota is losing is Big 3 numbers. Why isn't anyone else posting ~$8billion losses? Just admit it, they made some bad moves too. It's ok, so they're not the perfect company, big whoop.

I did admit it. It's just not the biggest part of their problem. Far from it.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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Toyota's problem is they are not moving forward. There is very little compelling reason to buy a new boring Toyota over a used boring Toyota that you already have. Look at Camry and Corolla, almost zero progress since 1989, that's 20 years. Sure people may refresh their garage when times are good, but in these times if you have a car that is running fine, something really has to be appealing to get you to spend the money, and Toyota doesn't have any appealing products that make you say I gotta have this, aside maybe FJ Cruiser for off road enthusiasts, but that's a fairly niche product.
 

Ktulu

Diamond Member
Dec 16, 2000
4,354
0
0
Originally posted by: sandorski
Originally posted by: Ktulu
Originally posted by: sandorski


They spent money, sure. It still pales compared to the Economic Downturn. How many times do I have to say it?? Look at the Industry, everyone is hurting bad.

Nobody is denying that everyone else is hurting as well, but the amount of money that Toyota is losing is Big 3 numbers. Why isn't anyone else posting ~$8billion losses? Just admit it, they made some bad moves too. It's ok, so they're not the perfect company, big whoop.

I did admit it. It's just not the biggest part of their problem. Far from it.

Thank you :beer:

And yes you're right, it really isnt' the biggest part. Just like GM/Ford, they were both in the middle of restructuring when the economy took a shit.