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totalitarianism. alive in Wisconsin and blocking the democratic process?

D

Dill

Senior member
Someone at work sent me a link to the live feed of the Wisconsin Senate proceedings yesterday, and when the bill came up for the PPA (Personal protection act) I heard the most un democratic thing happen I've ever heard of in America in my life.

I copied this from another user who posted it on another site, as he summed it up well and I don't feel like retyping it all.




I walked in apparently right after Senate Majority Leader Chvala (D) made a point of order motion to question whether Sen. Zien was making his request to introduce the bill at the correct time of the day (step #14).

In a disgusting move, Senate President Risser said that he would take Chvala?s motion under advisement for one day. Basically he said that he would try to make a decision as to whether Zien was out of order and then write up his decision. When questioned about how long it would take, all he would say is ?Quite a while? meaning that his intent was to sit on this until the Senate could be adjourned and it wouldn?t matter anyway. There was some dissenting and questioning about why Risser wouldn?t allow this bill to come up and why the hell he wasn?t following the rules. He more or less blew it off.

Then in an even worse move, while Senators were still debating, Risser asked almost out of nowhere if there was anyone who would object to moving on to step #15. SEVERAL Senators were loudly objecting but dictator Risser banged his gavel anyway. There was a huge uproar from the senate Republicans, but Risser would have none of it. He blatantly ignored everyone.

He was trying desperately to ignore the Sen. Minority Leader Mary E. Panzer while Sen. Chvala was making a motion to adjourn so that ?we? could go watch a ****ing high school basketball game. Sen. Panzer immediately went into action and was basically yelling ?Mr. President?? until Risser finally recognized her. She explained that she objected to moving on to step 15, and objected to Chvala?s motion to adjourn. She moved that they move back to step 14. Risser told her that they had already moved on to 15 and could not go back. She AGAIN said that she objected to moving to step 15. Risser said, with a smug grin on his face, ?Well, I didn?t hear you? and then continued.

Risser then asked if anyone objected to adjourning. Again SEVERAL people loudly objected. But he again banged the gavel; they were completely ignored. This brought up another small roar from the crowd and the Senate.


I believe the gun lobby had the votes to pass this bill, yet it was shot down by 2 individuals. Some democracy, and a slap in the face in light of what America has stood for after 9/11.
 
This coming from a MN resident? 😉

Besides, it's just so that people can carry concealed weapons. IMHO, I would rather see that people aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons. All you need is some whack job that's carrying his "legal" concealed weapon to feel threated and have them shot you. I can just see the shooting deaths occurring on freeways because of road rage with guns.

cheers 😀
 


<< This coming from a MN resident? 😉

Besides, it's just so that people can carry concealed weapons. IMHO, I would rather see that people aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons. All you need is some whack job that's carrying his "legal" concealed weapon to feel threated and have them shot you. I can just see the shooting deaths occurring on freeways because of road rage with guns.

cheers 😀 >>



Curiously, people with CC permits are NOT the ones committing crimes. Sorry, but yoiur fears are unjustified by the facts.
 


<<

<< This coming from a MN resident? 😉

Besides, it's just so that people can carry concealed weapons. IMHO, I would rather see that people aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons. All you need is some whack job that's carrying his "legal" concealed weapon to feel threated and have them shot you. I can just see the shooting deaths occurring on freeways because of road rage with guns.

cheers 😀 >>



Curiously, people with CC permits are NOT the ones committing crimes. Sorry, but yoiur fears are unjustified by the facts. >>

facts, facts, facts. do don't confuse me with facts. 😉

I think my fears are very justified. You can toss all the "facts" you want at me, but it doesn't diminish my right to be apprehensive about allowing people to not only carry guns, but then to be able to conceal them.

What is the practical reason for carrying a gun around "concealed?"

I mean really, hunting, sure. Guns for sport, fine. You need one in your house for protection, great. Those are all regulated places to have you guns. But when you start carrying a lethal weapon in your coat pocket around other people, what guarantee does everyone else have that you're not some well-mannered socialpath that was able to procur a license to carry a concealed weapon? It may be your right to carry a gun, but it is also everyone else's right to be safe from you and IMHO the public's right to be feel safe from people guns overrides your right to feel carry an ego-enhancer in your pocket.

I don't know. Say what you want, but having a gun in public areas outside of being part of law enforcement seems unnecessary and potentially very dangerous.

 


<<

<<

<< This coming from a MN resident? 😉

Besides, it's just so that people can carry concealed weapons. IMHO, I would rather see that people aren't allowed to carry concealed weapons. All you need is some whack job that's carrying his "legal" concealed weapon to feel threated and have them shot you. I can just see the shooting deaths occurring on freeways because of road rage with guns.

cheers 😀 >>



Curiously, people with CC permits are NOT the ones committing crimes. Sorry, but yoiur fears are unjustified by the facts. >>

facts, facts, facts. do don't confuse me with facts. 😉

I think my fears are very justified. You can toss all the "facts" you want at me, but it doesn't diminish my right to be apprehensive about allowing people to not only carry guns, but then to be able to conceal them.

What is the practical reason for carrying a gun around "concealed?"

I mean really, hunting, sure. Guns for sport, fine. You need one in your house for protection, great. Those are all regulated places to have you guns. But when you start carrying a lethal weapon in your coat pocket around other people, what guarantee does everyone else have that you're not some well-mannered socialpath that was able to procur a license to carry a concealed weapon? It may be your right to carry a gun, but it is also everyone else's right to be safe from you and IMHO the public's right to be feel safe from people guns overrides your right to feel carry an ego-enhancer in your pocket.

I don't know. Say what you want, but having a gun in public areas outside of being part of law enforcement seems unnecessary and potentially very dangerous. >>



It's hardly unnecessary, especially if you're a woman, live in a bad area, or have to carry cash. The police are NOT obliged to protect each individual, only clean up after the fact.

As long as criminals carry guns, I'll demand the same right.

I refuse to be convicted of crimes I have not committed and give up my freedoms simply because you have unfounded, irrational fears about me. Yes, me. By claiming an arbitrary ban on civilian CC is necessary, you are punishing EVERYONE for your fears. Taking away EVERYONE'S freedom simply because you have irrational fears is oppressive, to say the least.
 


<< It's hardly unnecessary, especially if you're a woman, live in a bad area, or have to carry cash. The police are NOT obliged to protect each individual, only clean up after the fact.

As long as criminals carry guns, I'll demand the same right.

I refuse to be convicted of crimes I have not committed and give up my freedoms simply because you have unfounded, irrational fears about me. Yes, me. By claiming an arbitrary ban on civilian CC is necessary, you are punishing EVERYONE for your fears. Taking away EVERYONE'S freedom simply because you have irrational fears is oppressive, to say the least. >>

And your irrational, unfounded dreams of heroism are what give more and more opportunity to individuals to committ violent crimes. I'm saying no concealed weapons not no guns at all. If you want to walk about with a flaming hat that signifies that you're armed, do it because then at least people have the option to avoid being around you. It is NOT your right to decide for others whether it's okay for them to know whether or not your armed. IMO, if you're armed, you are obligated to let people know. period.
 
Would you rather have someone carry a gun in a holster in plain view? Its perfectly legal to carry a gun in plain view in many states, if you have it legally(registered and licensed). You cant go into or near many places with it strapped on but you can carry a gun in plain sight, for protection.
 
yep, I'm from Mn. But I do care about what happens in neighboring states, as we are somewhat 'related'


As far as a 'whack job' carrying a gun, they already do, they're called criminals, and they don't bother to register themselves with anybody as a show of good faith.


Why would I want to carry a weapon around? Visit downtown Milwaukee, Chicago, or New York, and you'll see my point.
 
Have you ever read anything about communism by Marx or Engels? The scene you describe sounds nothing like communism but a lot like fascism.

Taking away EVERYONE'S freedom simply because you have irrational fears is oppressive, to say the least.
Tell Ashcroft that next time you are in DC. Thank goodness they didn't pass the first Patriot Act . . .

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Ambiguities aside it is clear people should be able to bear firearms. But the CC argument holds little water. The government is not infringing your 2nd Amendment rights if it does not allow you to HIDE your weapon. If it is self-protection I'm sure rapists and robbers will think twice when they see a holster. But states that pass laws to prohibit private facilities and munincipalities from keeping CC gun-toters out are ridiculous.

Right and Duty to Keep and Bear Arms

Nerds with firearms
 
And your irrational, unfounded dreams of heroism are what give more and more opportunity to individuals to committ violent crimes.

I'm not sure how much evidence supports that claim.
 


<< Would you rather have someone carry a gun in a holster in plain view? Its perfectly legal to carry a gun in plain view in many states, if you have it legally(registered and licensed). You cant go into or near many places with it strapped on but you can carry a gun in plain sight, for protection. >>

That's exactly what mean. Plain view is fine with me. 😀



<< And your irrational, unfounded dreams of heroism are what give more and more opportunity to individuals to committ violent crimes.

I'm not sure how much evidence supports that claim. >>

There isn't, but there's no more evidence for the claim that my fears are unfounded either.

My point here is that concealed is unnecessary. Carry a gun if you want, it's your right, but it is not for you to choice whether people know or not because when you're out in public the gun can affect more than just yourself regardless what you may think. At least if it's in plain view, people can choose for themselves as to whether they want to be in the vicinity of an armed civilian.

😀
 
Why did you want to conceal the gun anyway if the purpose is for self-defense? As someone else has pointed out, I'm sure the craziest thugs will think twice of robbing a person with a gun. Myself, I prefer all those rapist,gangster,etc,etc to be quartered/mutilated and left bleeding to death as a sign for the next lunatic criminals.
 
Although off the true subject of this topic, concealed weapons permits won't boost up the crime in a state. That has been proven. What it will do is allow my wife to go down to the local convenience store knowing that if some punk tries to assualt her that the mere sight of a .380 pulled out is gonna have that punk running and pissing in his pants.

This is not some whacked out senario. This is reality! How many of you that don't believe in concealed weapons live near a rough area of town??????????
 
Well, I guess my initial point wasn't to start a handgun discussion. I don't care what the law is about, it is a downright SHAME that this was allowed to happen.


I think I would rather carry concealed, as open carry can mark you as a target.
 


<< Well, I guess my initial point wasn't to start a handgun discussion. I don't care what the law is about, it is a downright SHAME that this was allowed to happen.


I think I would rather carry concealed, as open carry can mark you as a target. >>

But you have a gun, right? So you could protect yourself. 😉 If you don't want to be a target, don't carry a gun. 😉
 
Although off the true subject of this topic, concealed weapons permits won't boost up the crime in a state.

CC permits do not affect crime appreciably . . . hmm what's the point, again? But firearms in the home dramatically increase the risk of accidents (particularly children and overpaid ex-pro bball players) and homicide (spousal).

What it will do is allow my wife to go down to the local convenience store knowing that if some punk tries to assualt her that the mere sight of a .380 pulled out is gonna have that punk running and pissing in his pants.

Why not a "Homegirl is packing HEAT" sticker and keep the weapon in the open (on her person)? Why not discourage the punk when he's 30 ft away instead of 3 ft?

I think I would rather carry concealed, as open carry can mark you as a target.

Target for what? A shoot-out on the street with your neighbors?


 


<< Have you ever read anything about communism by Marx or Engels? The scene you describe sounds nothing like communism but a lot like fascism. >>



I'm going to have to stongly agree with this....it really bothers me when people misuse 'communism' and it seems to happen so commonly because of feelings from the cold-war etc. (Soviet Union wasn't really even communism either....or at least a corrupt form). True communism can never really exist, its a paper gov't.
 
Having concealed weapons really changes the mindset of the criminal. The criminal DOESN'T know if the person he is about to attack has a gun or not, as far as the average criminal can tell, everyone or no one around him has a gun! Concealed weapons have been proven to be a crime deterrent for this very reason! Criminals are much less likely to attack someone when its possible they have a gun!

 
Criminals are much less likely to attack someone when its possible they have a gun!

Hmm, I bet that criminals are MUCH, MUCH less likely to attack someone if they KNOW they have gun.
 
Of course criminals would be less likely to attack someone that they knew had a gun. The thing is....this only helps people that have guns! The thing about concealed weapons, is that it opens up the possibility that everyone has a gun. EVERY potential victim would be riskier. And...if the people were only allowed to carry guns in the open...it would really make it easy for the criminals to know who to avoid.
 
Concealed weapons have been proven to be a crime deterrent for this very reason!

TIME synopsis of Lott research, book, and critques of CC

Researchers from Carnegie Mellon University took Lott's figures and analyzed crime rates only in counties with populations above 100,000. Using this yardstick, right-to-carry laws reduced aggravated assaults 67% in Maine--but increased murders 105% in West Virginia. After Philadelphia passed a concealed-carry law in 1995, the number of people with such permits rose by 10,000 in two years. But the murder rate remained as high as it had been for the previous decade.

Lott's research is interesting but certainly not a justification for CC.
 
CC permits do not affect crime appreciably .

Tell that to the estimsated 3.5 million Citizens that twart a crime with a gun....another of Lott's conclusions btw...

 
If you would like to read a more objective (i.e. less biased) description read on.



<< Concealed weapons bill killed in Senate
10:31 PM 3/12/02
Tom Sheehan State government reporter

Senate Democrats blocked a vote on the "concealed carry" bill - under which citizens could have carried concealed weapons - Tuesday night, killing the possibility of passage this legislative session.

Republicans in the Senate accused Democratic leaders of arbitrarily enforcing Senate rules to block a motion that could have led to a floor vote.

Sen. Dave Zien, R-Eau Claire, the main supporter of the bill, proposed a "pulling motion" that would have taken the bill directly from committee to the floor for a vote. A similar process was successfully used to bring the bill to the Assembly floor for a vote two weeks ago.

The bill, also known as the Personal Protection Act, would have required county sheriffs to issue licenses to carry weapons to citizens who don't have felony convictions and who have had training and a background check.

Zien told supporters who gathered in the Senate chambers after adjournment that the bill had enough support to pass the Senate if it wasn't procedurally blocked.

"I would take the fact that they (Democrats) went to this extreme to block a vote as an indicator that they clearly knew we had the votes," said Zien aide Bob Seitz.

Senate Majority Leader, Chuck Chvala, D-Madison, said the bill would have upended Wisconsin's 130-year-old ban without thorough consideration.

Crime rates in Wisconsin are lower than in many states that have concealed carry laws in place, Chvala said; and 946 concealed carry permit holders in Texas have been arrested for crimes.

Chvala then raised a "point of order," which Sen. PresidentFred Risser, D-Madison, took under advisement and moved on to the next agenda item. Republican Sens. Mike Ellis, Neenah, Mary Panzer, West Bend, and Bob Welch, Redgranite, accused Risser of killing debate and putting politics above policy.

On Monday, the Senate Committee on Judiciary, Consumer Affairs and Campaign Finance Reform recommended passage of the bill 4-1. Democratic Sens. Gary George, Milwaukee, who heads the committee, and Bob Wirch, Kenosha, voted in favor, suggesting some Democrats may have broken ranks on the issue.

Under the bill, concealed weapons would still have been forbidden on government property, including jails, schools and police departments, as well as in taverns, at athletic events and airports.

Wisconsin is one of six states that doesn't have some form of concealed carry law. >>



Dill , this doesn't come any where near communism. Maybe you could change your title so that you don't seem like such an a$$hole.

Edit: link
 
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