Tossing you the keys, how do YOU fix GM?

Page 4 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Dredging, cleaning up their mess, whatever you would like to call it is a solution I have not seen anyone else bring up.
Trolleys, streetcar, rolling stock infrastructure is one answer to putting a dying industry to 21st century use where it is needed.
Edit: Wrong century :eek:
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Originally posted by: microbial
1- Don't allow the present managers of the big 3 make another car.
2- Re-tool all plants for manufacturing public transport systems
3- re-build effective, quality public transport in the US.

Yes, because public transport is the answer for the transportation needs of Fuckknowswhere, TN (there are many more Fuckknowswhere all across the US). You probably live in a major city and think "who needs cars anyway".

I think many guys here are on track. Less duplicate branding (cutting down R&D as well as marketing costs), eliminating bad dealers, etc.

Changing the products take time (2-3 years at the very least). I wouldn't use this bailout to push green agenda - the first goal should be making these companies profitable again. Killing all SUVs? Not so sure it's the right thing to do. Hybrids, EVs all go IF the customers show demand and are ready to pay.

Few more:
1) Use the weak dollar to export. Start selling around the world.
2) Play on patriotism. Worked in the past. Americans like to help America.

 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Dredging, cleaning up their mess, whatever you would like to call it is a solution I have not seen anyone else bring up.
Trolleys, streetcar, rolling stock infrastructure is one answer to putting a dying industry to 21st century use where it is needed.
Edit: Wrong century :eek:

Yes, revoke the primary mean of personal freedom (the car) for a government mandated mass transit system.
Links well to the speech in your signature, which, IMHO, shows a mix of miserable rhetoric, a demonstration of Godwin's law in action and so much out-of-context blabber primarily intended to confuse the crowd.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Blaming solely the unions is rediculous, while they have certainly been complicit, the mgmt at GM has been horrible. Gas has been over $3 for years now, what are their responses? Mostly lighter trucks and crossovers. They have not built a well regarded car line for a while. WTF are they waiting for? Too slow to change.

->Too much bureaucracy and lumbering response to changing market forces. Huge organizational cutting and streamlining is needed.

-As said, junk a number of cross competing lines. IDK if you have it down to 2 or 3, but certainly better targeted and more eff.
-> Chrysler should be junked entirely, and just sell off the Jeep brand, maybe the Ram.

-Start building relevant and reliable cars. Some lines are finally getting better, but there are still so many weaknesses. They need to be better than Japanese to rebuild image. You just don't get out from under decades of shitty cars w/ 1 or 2 models that are decent. Strong warrs would help, but they gotta be good cars.

-->Cars need to have some longterm value and stronger resell. Bitching about the $2K in add't costs does nothing to the fact that domestics have a hard time giving their cars away. They have to sell for below market pricing and often offer special financing or "employee pricing" just to get people to buy them. Then go look at the resell of some of the Doms vs their Japanese counterparts after a couple years. It sucks. Get your fucking price point up and have customers willing to pay it. People are willing to pay much more for a stripped down and anemic Honda Civic because they are good and affordable cars with strong resell.
 

Bitek

Lifer
Aug 2, 2001
10,676
5,239
136
Its funny how everyone here seems to know the obvious w/ the Big 3, but they are so unable to do it themselves.
Congress should not give them a dime to piss away if they can't work to fix their own mess.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Dredging, cleaning up their mess, whatever you would like to call it is a solution I have not seen anyone else bring up.
Trolleys, streetcar, rolling stock infrastructure is one answer to putting a dying industry to 21st century use where it is needed.
Edit: Wrong century :eek:

Yes, revoke the primary mean of personal freedom (the car) for a government mandated mass transit system.

This is a matter of personal opinion, not everyone drives, plenty do not in USA.
I see no loss of freedoms. (except lack of a few extra bills.)

Smaller cities have their own solutions that will be different from larger ones, what is needed for smaller areas are a sustainable pattern of development built with public transit in mind for future/current growth.
I agree that the way we have built up our cities large and small is a trap for non-auto users. This is why GM and friends were sued and found for conspiracy in tearing up million of dollars in public transit infrastructure.
Regardless of your personal attacks on me the concept is a pipe dream from the 1950-60s and not relevant for the future.
(Not that personal use vehicles should be stopped altogether.)

-But I reject the idea that a automobile = personal freedom
This country was founded upon give me freedom or give me death. Not give me convenience or give me death.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
Public transportation is just as ineffective measure in rural area as cars are ineffective inside big cities.
What's better, trains running half-empty or people driving cars around?

If the development pattern was altered to fit mass-transit, you'd see 95% of the USA deserted, and many NY-style metropolitans scattered around the edges. That's not very green or economical or even healthy, either

Mass transit is only required where there's significant congestion. Otherwise, it's ineffective and high-upkeep.

Besides, who's going to run these mass-transmit networks? The government?



 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
1. Create a new company and begin construction of auto plants in Mexico with the goal of eventually producing GM vehicles.
2. The new company purchases all trademarks, patents / intellectual property from GM (but, does NOT buy the company) as GM teeters on the edge of fail.
3. Allow the real GM to completely die off, along with any current or future obligations it had to its (past or current) employees and customers.
4. Hire select engineers and scientists from the now dead company's ashes.
5. Have the plants mentioned in step 1 produce vehicles using GM's technology and brand names in Mexico for export to the US.

GM would basically be reset (doubt it is legal).
 

Red Dawn

Elite Member
Jun 4, 2001
57,529
3
0
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. Create a new company and begin construction of auto plants in Mexico with the goal of eventually producing GM vehicles.
2. The new company purchases all trademarks, patents / intellectual property from GM (but, does NOT buy the company) as GM teeters on the edge of fail.
3. Allow the real GM to completely die off, along with any current or future obligations it had to its (past or current) employees and customers.
4. Hire select engineers and scientists from the now dead company's ashes.
5. Have the plants mentioned in step 1 produce vehicles using GM's technology and brand names in Mexico for export to the US.

GM would basically be reset (doubt it is legal).
Well they definitely would be able to exploit the workers in Mexico.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Public transportation is just as ineffective measure in rural area as cars are ineffective inside big cities.
What's better, trains running half-empty or people driving cars around?

If the development pattern was altered to fit mass-transit, you'd see 95% of the USA deserted, and many NY-style metropolitans scattered around the edges. That's not very green or economical or even healthy, either

Mass transit is only required where there's significant congestion. Otherwise, it's ineffective and high-upkeep.

Besides, who's going to run these mass-transmit networks? The government?

There would have to be a mix for smaller areas, goods distribution would most likely be done by lorrys locally, most inter-city traffic even between smaller cities are fine for rail or maglev.
Private companies should be the last thing that owns Public Transit. It is not a profit driven industry, rather a need. Thus it is a public service. Same as the freeway system currently in use.
 

SamurAchzar

Platinum Member
Feb 15, 2006
2,422
3
76
But then, it's completely opposite to the "American Way". There would be no more shopping (carry that in the train...), no more DIY (haul 4x2 using what?), no more camping, etc. These (in part) are the reasons that drove the American citizen to buy an SUV, and I just can't see Americans giving up on their pastime.

Obviously, you're not proposing a ban on cars. But then, I think that personal utilitarian transportation has become so intertwined with the American way of life separating the two would be incredibly difficult. That alone would spell doom on any revolutionary plan of networking the US with mass-transit. The idea here (if I understand you correctly) would be replacing car use with mass transit use, but then require the people to give up cars. You can't sustain both.

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
81
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
But then, it's completely opposite to the "American Way". There would be no more shopping (carry that in the train...), no more DIY (haul 4x2 using what?), no more camping, etc. These (in part) are the reasons that drove the American citizen to buy an SUV, and I just can't see Americans giving up on their pastime.

Obviously, you're not proposing a ban on cars. But then, I think that personal utilitarian transportation has become so intertwined with the American way of life separating the two would be incredibly difficult. That alone would spell doom on any revolutionary plan of networking the US with mass-transit. The idea here (if I understand you correctly) would be replacing car use with mass transit use, but then require the people to give up cars. You can't sustain both.

We have known forever the way we are doing things now is not sustainable, and yes, it will be almost a apollo sized project, regardless of which path we take. Changes will have to be made to "the American way of doing things" it sucks but I trust humans at one thing: Adaptability.
 

child of wonder

Diamond Member
Aug 31, 2006
8,307
176
106
Cut all brands, cut costs, reduce workforce, and re-invent company as one that offers a handful of fuel efficient vehicles in a few classes.

1. Small electric/hybrid car to compete with Prius
2. Medium sedan electric/hybrid car to compete with Camry
3. Small SUV electric/hybrid to market to families
4. Electric/hybrid sports car

Then invest significant R&D into all electric cars with built in solar panels and long lasting batteries that charge quickly.
 

Oceandevi

Diamond Member
Jan 20, 2006
3,085
1
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. Create a new company and begin construction of auto plants in Mexico with the goal of eventually producing GM vehicles.
2. The new company purchases all trademarks, patents / intellectual property from GM (but, does NOT buy the company) as GM teeters on the edge of fail.
3. Allow the real GM to completely die off, along with any current or future obligations it had to its (past or current) employees and customers.
4. Hire select engineers and scientists from the now dead company's ashes.
5. Have the plants mentioned in step 1 produce vehicles using GM's technology and brand names in Mexico for export to the US.

GM would basically be reset (doubt it is legal).
Well they definitely would be able to exploit the workers in Mexico.

I think investing in our neighbor has other long term benefits. Take a gander.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
Originally posted by: TheRedUnderURBed
Nationalize them and retool to replace the perfectly good public transit infrastructure they destroyed in the 50s.

Bail out General Motors? The people who murdered our mass transit system?

First let them remake what they destroyed.

GM responded to the 1970s gas crisis by handing over the American market to energy-efficient Toyota and Honda.

GM met the rise of the hybrids with "light trucks."

GM built a small electric car, leased a pilot fleet to consumers who loved it, and then forcibly confiscated and trashed them all.

GM now wants to market a $40,000 electric Volt that looks like a cross between a Hummer and a Cadillac and will do nothing to meet the Solartopian needs of a green-powered Earth.

For this alone, GM's managers should never be allowed to make another car, let alone take our tax money to stay in business.

But there is also a trillion-dollar skeleton in GM's closet.

This is the company that murdered our mass transit system.

The assertion comes from Bradford Snell, a government researcher whose definitive report damning GM has been a vehicular lightening rod since its 1974 debut. Its attackers and defenders are legion. But some facts are irrefutable:

In a 1922 memo that will live in infamy, GM President Alfred P. Sloan established a unit aimed at dumping electrified mass transit in favor of gas-burning cars, trucks and buses.

Just one American family in 10 then owned an automobile. Instead, we loved our 44,000 miles of passenger rail routes managed by 1,200 companies employing 300,000 Americans who ran 15 billion annual trips generating an income of $1 billion. According to Snell, "virtually every city and town in America of more than 2,500 people had its own electric rail system."

But GM lost $65 million in 1921. So Sloan enlisted Standard Oil (now Exxon), Philips Petroleum, glass and rubber companies and an army of financiers and politicians to kill mass transit.

The campaigns varied, as did the economic and technical health of many of the systems themselves. Some now argue that buses would have transcended many of the rail lines anyway. More likely, they would have hybridized and complemented each other.

But with a varied arsenal of political and financial subterfuges, GM helped gut the core of America's train and trolley systems. It was the murder of our rail systems that made our "love affair" with the car a tragedy of necessity.

In 1949 a complex federal prosecution for related crimes resulted in an anti-trust fine against GM of a whopping $5000. For years thereafter GM continued to bury electric rail systems by "bustituting" gas-fired vehicles.

Then came the interstates. After driving his Allied forces into Berlin on Hitler's Autobahn, Dwight Eisenhower brought home a passion for America's biggest public works project. Some 40,000 miles of vital eco-systems were eventually paved under.

In habitat destruction, oil addiction, global warming, outright traffic deaths (some 40,000/year and more), ancillary ailments and wars for oil, the automobile embodies the worst ecological catastrophe in human history.

Should current General Motors management be made to pay for the ancient sins of Alfred Sloan?

Since the 1880s, American corporations have claimed human rights under the law. Tasking one now with human responsibilities could set a great precedent.

GM has certainly proved itself unable to make cars that can compete while healing a global-warmed planet.

So let's convert the company's infrastructure to churn out trolley cars, monorails, passenger trains, truly green buses.

FDR forced Detroit to manufacture the tanks, planes and guns that won World War 2 (try buying a 1944 Chevrolet!). Now let a reinvented GM make the "weapons" to win the climate war and energy independence.

It demands re-tooling and re-training. But GM's special role in history must now evolve into using its infrastructure to restore the mass transit system - and ecological balance - it has helped destroy.
http://www.truthout.org/111708C
You're not the red under the bed, you're not hiding at all, and you?re right out in the open. If you were alive in 1921 you've been harboring a grudge for a long time.

They're practicing the way of life you idolize in China, Cuba, Laos, North Korea, and Vietnam these days. Assuming you even live in the US, Cuba is closest, you could walk to the closest port in Florida because I assume you've fully embraced the ideals of the party and don't have a car. Head on over and get happy with your comrades over there.

goods distribution would most likely be done by lorrys locally

Why foreigners feel such a need to interject their opinions into our politics and national matters without identifying themselves as not being citizens of this country amazes me.

 

Engineer

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
39,230
701
126
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. Create a new company and begin construction of auto plants in Mexico with the goal of eventually producing GM vehicles.
2. The new company purchases all trademarks, patents / intellectual property from GM (but, does NOT buy the company) as GM teeters on the edge of fail.
3. Allow the real GM to completely die off, along with any current or future obligations it had to its (past or current) employees and customers.
4. Hire select engineers and scientists from the now dead company's ashes.
5. Have the plants mentioned in step 1 produce vehicles using GM's technology and brand names in Mexico for export to the US.

GM would basically be reset (doubt it is legal).

If you look at cars being built by Ford, GM and Chrysler in Mexico, it has already started, and with some success too (Ford Fusion for example).
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,275
14,695
146
There's certainly no easy fix.
For those who think they need to get rid of the unions, then what happens when all those auto workers start defaulting on their mortgages, car loans, credit card payments, etc?

Who is gonna train the scab replacements? Do you REALLY want GM to start turning out Yugos?

I agree that they need to do away with the multiples of the same car. Buick, Pontiac, Chevy all produce essentially the same models, just with different names. (Ford/Mercury do the same)

They need to spend more time and energy (and money) focusing on high mileage cars, hybrids/alternative energy cars, and less on building land-yachts.

While Cadillac is their "flagship brand," it too needs to be re-tooled. Many people have an intense dislike for the sharp angular designs of recent years, and instead, opt for either a European brand or a high-end Japanese model.

IMO, like it or not, the unions are gonna have to make some concessions, but the companies are going to have to figure out a way to make those concessions palatable to the members. Most of the nice benefits the employees enjoy were paid for by giving up wage concessions in various contract negotiations. "You want $5/hr in raises? How about $1/hr in wage increase and $3/hr in various medical and retirement benefits?"
The companies gained by not having to pay out higher wages, (and thus higher work comp premiums and other costs keyed to total wages) and the employees gained by getting better benefit packages than they could buy on their own.

Sending production to Mexico might help the bottom line, but IMO, ANY vehicle (for that matter, any goods formerly manufactured in the USA) manufactured in a foreign country should be hit with HIGH tariffs to help offset the loss to the nation from the resultant loss of income taxes, sales and use taxes, bankruptcy filings, etc.

I personally couldn't care less about the WORLD economy, I care about the US economy. IF improving the US economy helps improve the world economy, good, if not...pfft...don't care.
 

Gothgar

Lifer
Sep 1, 2004
13,429
1
0
Originally posted by: SamurAchzar
Public transportation is just as ineffective measure in rural area as cars are ineffective inside big cities.
What's better, trains running half-empty or people driving cars around?

If the development pattern was altered to fit mass-transit, you'd see 95% of the USA deserted, and many NY-style metropolitans scattered around the edges. That's not very green or economical or even healthy, either

Mass transit is only required where there's significant congestion. Otherwise, it's ineffective and high-upkeep.

Besides, who's going to run these mass-transmit networks? The government?

would they be half empty or half full?
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,016
0
0
1) Sale manufacting to other companies and get rid of the union...
2) Cut product mix by 1/2 for cars cut it by 1/4 for trucks/suv's.
3) Cut unsold inventory by 1/2.
4) Eliminate as many rebates/incentives as possible including 0% through GMAC.
 

badnewcastle

Golden Member
Jun 30, 2004
1,016
0
0
Oh and as others have said, consolidate brands...

They really only need Chevrolet, Hummer, Cadillac and keep Suburu.
 

daveymark

Lifer
Sep 15, 2003
10,573
1
0
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Oh and as others have said, consolidate brands...

They really only need Chevrolet, Hummer, Cadillac and keep Suburu.

definitely get rid of subaru and keep jeep for sure
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,275
14,695
146
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Oh and as others have said, consolidate brands...

They really only need Chevrolet, Hummer, Cadillac and keep Suburu.

definitely get rid of subaru and keep jeep for sure

When did GM get Jeep?

Used to be owned by Chrysler...could have sold it and I didn't notice since I don't care about today's Jeep offerings.) :roll:

They need to spin Hummer off into its own company and let it sink or swim by itself.
 

Strk

Lifer
Nov 23, 2003
10,197
4
76
Originally posted by: BoomerD
Originally posted by: daveymark
Originally posted by: badnewcastle
Oh and as others have said, consolidate brands...

They really only need Chevrolet, Hummer, Cadillac and keep Suburu.

definitely get rid of subaru and keep jeep for sure

When did GM get Jeep?

Used to be owned by Chrysler...could have sold it and I didn't notice since I don't care about today's Jeep offerings.) :roll:

They need to spin Hummer off into its own company and let it sink or swim by itself.

Chrysler still owns Jeep and GM sold its stake in Subaru last year. Toyota owns it now.
 

Schadenfroh

Elite Member
Mar 8, 2003
38,416
4
0
Originally posted by: Red Dawn
Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
1. Create a new company and begin construction of auto plants in Mexico with the goal of eventually producing GM vehicles.
2. The new company purchases all trademarks, patents / intellectual property from GM (but, does NOT buy the company) as GM teeters on the edge of fail.
3. Allow the real GM to completely die off, along with any current or future obligations it had to its (past or current) employees and customers.
4. Hire select engineers and scientists from the now dead company's ashes.
5. Have the plants mentioned in step 1 produce vehicles using GM's technology and brand names in Mexico for export to the US.

GM would basically be reset (doubt it is legal).
Well they definitely would be able to exploit the workers in Mexico.

I may not have been too far off:Q

Text
"One plan includes a Chapter 11 filing that would assemble all of GM's viable assets, including some U.S. brands and international operations, into a new company," the newspaper said. "The undesirable assets would be liquidated or sold under protection of a bankruptcy court.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
You fix GM with a proven method. You pay off or bribe politicians to get them off your back, and then sell consumers the product that they want.