Originally posted by: cmp1223
The situation here in Florida concerning doctors and lawsuits is really critical. I was just wondering if there are any trial lawyers here that deal with malpractice that could offer any kind of argument against tort reform, be cause id sure like to hear it.
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: cmp1223
The situation here in Florida concerning doctors and lawsuits is really critical. I was just wondering if there are any trial lawyers here that deal with malpractice that could offer any kind of argument against tort reform, be cause id sure like to hear it.
I am actually in the middle of deciding whether to attend law or medical school but I think I can give you a balanced look.
What you are seeing in all of this boils down to 2 competing ideas: the right to be compensated if you are harmed and the right to of physicians to be able to practice (put differently, the right of the society to have access to medical care).
So if we look only at the first principle - the right to be compensated - it is fairly hard to argue some cases. Take a doctor who is ridiculously drunk and manages to kill a baby during delivery. Or the doctors who amputate the wrong leg. There are many of the cut and dry cases.
There are some that are in the middle - what if the doctor prescribes a drug that is fatal if combined with another drug and winds up killing his patient (who was on that other drug).
Then there are the age old cases of the doctor doing everything right but the patient still not making it. You had a massive heart attack, the team did everything they could, you didn't make it, and now you are going to make them pay.
The principle is that if somebody inflicts harm on you then you have a right to be made whole. And, as those first examples show, there are very few people who would restrict it in some cases - the drunk doctor would have most of us screaming "make him pay."
The more you punish doctors the more you cut back on access. Maybe the doctors don't want to treat high risk patients. Maybe they refuse to do high risk procedures. Maybe they refuse to treat known litigious patients.
The real question is where do you draw that line between being compensated for a loss and providing medical care for the community.
At the end of the day if it is you or your loved one who is injured you want to make him pay and this has become the dominant reason behind the problem today.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
The problem is the victim? Hmmm.
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: Riprorin
The problem is the victim? Hmmm.
The problem is your lack of reading comprehension. How you pulled that out of your ass so quickly amazes me.
Here, then, for your consumption is my argument in bullet points:
1) You have a right to be compensated if you are harmed
2) The more people who sue doctors the less doctors we have
3) The less doctors we have the more society suffers
Therefore there is a conflict between the right to be compensated and access to healthcare.
It is a balance. A line is drawn between the two. They are opposing each other. Each principle has some weight to it.
The word "victim" didn't even appear in my original post.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
"At the end of the day if it is you or your loved one who is injured you want to make him pay and this has become the dominant reason behind the problem today."
"You" isn't the victim and the victim isn't the "dominant reason behind the problem today"? Maybe you should read what you write.
I'm not an expert on this topic, but it appears to me that there should be a cap on damages and there should be a penalty if one brings a frivolous suit.
The kind of jackpot justice that John Edwards has benefited from (to the tune of $40 million in the last decade) needs to be brought to an end.
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: Riprorin
"At the end of the day if it is you or your loved one who is injured you want to make him pay and this has become the dominant reason behind the problem today."
"You" isn't the victim and the victim isn't the "dominant reason behind the problem today"? Maybe you should read what you write.
I'm not an expert on this topic, but it appears to me that there should be a cap on damages and there should be a penalty if one brings a frivolous suit.
The kind of jackpot justice that John Edwards has benefited from (to the tune of $40 million in the last decade) needs to be brought to an end.
Let me ask you a basic question: do you believe in the Constitution? Do you really and truly love it?
One of the most fundamental protections of the Constitution is the right to have access to the courts. It is the 7th Amendment:
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
And here you have stated that you want to punish people for exercising their Constitutional right to go to court.
Then we get to the mechanics of your claim - who is going to decide what is a frivolous lawsuit? A Judge? Nope, this is America - by, for, and of the people. A group of medical experts - sorry, both sides have medical experts who disagree with each other. If you answer anything other than "a jury" you have just dishonored the spirit of the 7th Amendment.
And let's say that this jury decides to award somebody millions of dollars in damages. That is exactly the situation with John Edward. He didn't milk anybody of anything - people who had been injured hired him to represent them in front of a random group of average, ordinary Americans. These same American decided to award millions worth of damages.
That's our system. That is our Constitution. What, exactly, is so wrong with that?
Oh, I forgot, it's that he's running against Bush and is therefore evil.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Is that your argument against tort reform?
So you think the current system is working fine. Good for you. Most people don't.
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Is that your argument against tort reform?
So you think the current system is working fine. Good for you. Most people don't.
Do I believe that our Constitution is working fine? Absolutely. I doubt most people don't.
What about you, Rip? Do you think the Constitution is working fine?
I believe in the fundamental justice of 12 average Americans before any other system.
By the way, Rip, since you're so keen - what is a tort? What are the elements of a tort? How would you re-arrange it? How would you fix it?
You can't cap it because it is un-Constitutional (that is what "shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law") means in the 7th Amendment.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Lawyers make millions while most patients receive nothing
The Physician Insurers Association of America report that under typical contingency fee arrangements, lawyers walk away with 30-50% of any jury award to the plaintiff, plus an additional percentage of the award to cover expenses. (Medical Malpractice Claim Expenses, Physician Insurers Association of America, 1999)
The Department of Health and Human Services notes that when a patient does decide to go into the litigation system, only a very small number recover anything. They note that 57 - 70% of cases result in no payment for the patient. (Testimony presented by the Physician Insurers Association of America before the Subcommittee on Commercial and Administrative Law before the House Judiciary Committee, June 12, 2002)
The majority of victims of medical error do not pursue litigation. A study in the New England Journal of Medicine found that only 1.53% of those injured filed a claim. ("Relation between malpractice claims and adverse events due to negligence; results of the Harvard Medical Practice Study III". New England Journal of Medicine, July 25, 1991.)
Almost half of the total amount of claim costs paid for liability claims in the long term care industry is going directly to attorneys. (Long Term Care: General Liability and Professional Liability Actuarial Analysis, p. 4)
The National Association of Consumer Advocates testified: "Simply put, many consumer class actions are now being settled on the basis of what the lawyers get and not what the consumers in the class get." (National Association of Consumer Advocates, Senate Judiciary Subcommittee Hearing, May 4, 1999)
Link
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Lawyers make millions while most patients receive nothing
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Lawyers make millions while most patients receive nothing
Now that is the first valid point that you have yet made.
To start with it does not have to be that way - a contingency fee is structured so that the plaintiff doesn't ever have to pay any money in legal bills unless they win. If the lawyer spends 10 months preparing and loses they eat the loss.
This allows poor people to have access to lawyers that wouldn't otherwise have access. Those who can afford it are more than able to purchase the services of a lawyer on a per hour basis and receive the totality of the award. Not many people can afford to pay a lawyer out of pocket so the contingency fees offer representation that would not otherwise exist.
And who do these contingency lawyers battle? Well funded, experienced, talented insurance company lawyers who do not like paying out and use very trick possible. Make no mistake about it - big corporate lawyers are well paid for a reason.
Why doesn't anybody blame the insurance companies?
One of the reasons for the increase in malpractice insurance is that insurance companies are chasing lost profits. Even when litigation goes down, and jury awards are reduced, when the costs go down the rate for physicians remains the same.
I don't have all the answers but simplistic "lawyers are evil" type thinking shows disrespect for our legal system, our Constitution, and your fellow Americans who make up juries.
Originally posted by: Riprorin
Platitudes are nice but what's your solution to spiraling medical costs and keeing doctors in the medical profession?
Apparently you can't offer one as you can only defend the status quo.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't the AMA kick out bad doctors? They won't even keep score of who the bad doctor's are? After a couple of law suits, the doctor's should get put on a list. If your going in for a surgery, you should have more than "word of mouth" evaluations of how good your doctor is.
I won't feel sorry for Doctor's until they start policing themselves, which they don't do. In the meantime the only option available is to sue them for incompetance.
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't the AMA kick out bad doctors? They won't even keep score of who the bad doctor's are? After a couple of law suits, the doctor's should get put on a list. If your going in for a surgery, you should have more than "word of mouth" evaluations of how good your doctor is.
I won't feel sorry for Doctor's until they start policing themselves, which they don't do. In the meantime the only option available is to sue them for incompetance.
I agree with you that the medical profession needs to start policing itself better. This is, to me, an area that is ripe for regulation.
As far as the AMA - you do realize that the AMA is only a lobby, right, not some body with any kind of real power? It's not their job to keep track records of bad doctors, that is the job of state medical licensing boards.
Lastly I don't think that the amount of times any particular doctor has been sued proves much of anything. Some doctors take much higher risk patients and are therefore sued more often. The process of suing often means that the lawyers sue everyone in sight so it is not uncommon for some people to sue 50 doctors at once.
But some definite regulation should be in place to protect patients from truly incompetent physicians.
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
Why doesn't the AMA kick out bad doctors? They won't even keep score of who the bad doctor's are? After a couple of law suits, the doctor's should get put on a list. If your going in for a surgery, you should have more than "word of mouth" evaluations of how good your doctor is.
I won't feel sorry for Doctor's until they start policing themselves, which they don't do. In the meantime the only option available is to sue them for incompetance.
I agree with you that the medical profession needs to start policing itself better. This is, to me, an area that is ripe for regulation.
As far as the AMA - you do realize that the AMA is only a lobby, right, not some body with any kind of real power? It's not their job to keep track records of bad doctors, that is the job of state medical licensing boards.
Lastly I don't think that the amount of times any particular doctor has been sued proves much of anything. Some doctors take much higher risk patients and are therefore sued more often. The process of suing often means that the lawyers sue everyone in sight so it is not uncommon for some people to sue 50 doctors at once.
But some definite regulation should be in place to protect patients from truly incompetent physicians.
Originally posted by: 1EZduzit
The lawyers have to sue everyone to get to the truth or the doctor's/hospitals will hide everthing they can.
The AMA is basically the doctor's union. It represents them as a lobbyist and do you think they would let any laws be passed regarding a report card on doctor's? . It is BS to not have that info available. Then, the insurance is just a big rip-off. Everyone is in it for the money, The doctors, the lawyers, and the insurance companies. It is the biggest cash cow in the country.
Check out this link:
Pay Packages
Originally posted by: ForThePeople
Originally posted by: Riprorin
"At the end of the day if it is you or your loved one who is injured you want to make him pay and this has become the dominant reason behind the problem today."
"You" isn't the victim and the victim isn't the "dominant reason behind the problem today"? Maybe you should read what you write.
I'm not an expert on this topic, but it appears to me that there should be a cap on damages and there should be a penalty if one brings a frivolous suit.
The kind of jackpot justice that John Edwards has benefited from (to the tune of $40 million in the last decade) needs to be brought to an end.
Let me ask you a basic question: do you believe in the Constitution? Do you really and truly love it?
One of the most fundamental protections of the Constitution is the right to have access to the courts. It is the 7th Amendment:
In suits at common law, where the value in controversy shall exceed twenty dollars, the right of trial by jury shall be preserved, and no fact tried by a jury, shall be otherwise reexamined in any court of the United States, than according to the rules of the common law.
And here you have stated that you want to punish people for exercising their Constitutional right to go to court.
Then we get to the mechanics of your claim - who is going to decide what is a frivolous lawsuit? A Judge? Nope, this is America - by, for, and of the people. A group of medical experts - sorry, both sides have medical experts who disagree with each other. If you answer anything other than "a jury" you have just dishonored the spirit of the 7th Amendment.
And let's say that this jury decides to award somebody millions of dollars in damages. That is exactly the situation with John Edward. He didn't milk anybody of anything - people who had been injured hired him to represent them in front of a random group of average, ordinary Americans. These same American decided to award millions worth of damages.
That's our system. That is our Constitution. What, exactly, is so wrong with that?
Oh, I forgot, it's that he's running against Bush and is therefore evil.