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Torque Wrench Really Needed?
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We had hundreds and hundreds of repeat customers. We didn't have a problem with people coming back with warped rotors. Nobody in the shop (and I'm talking 70+ techs) used a torque wrench for wheels.
The fast lube guys later on had torque sticks.
It simply does not make that much difference with today's floating rotors. The old rotors that had the hub made with them, yeah.
This is, for the most part, just an old lesson learned when cars were much different passed on to today. I'm sure there might be a very few models around that might be sensitive to torquing, but few and far between, they are.
rstrohkirch
Platinum Member
I use a torque wrench for almost everything on my truck and bikes.
Wasn't something I was big on until I purchased a bike that had all kinds of stripped/snapped bolts. After dropping $80 to re-thread things I swore I wasn't going to be like the idiot who owned it before me.
Wasn't something I was big on until I purchased a bike that had all kinds of stripped/snapped bolts. After dropping $80 to re-thread things I swore I wasn't going to be like the idiot who owned it before me.
I'm 25 and your the only one thats being a a$$ here. I'm new to working on cars as you was at some point. I ask alot of questions even though some maybe dumb I don't want to mess anything up. I am not the type to take my stuff to the shop to get it fixed if it can be done by me. I like learning to work on stuff myself. But when I do I don't go in and just do it thinking I know what I'm doing I am very cautious.
What in my question is sad? That I asked if the gasket really needed to be used? According to the back of the plugs it has turn specs with and without the gasket.
alkemyst
No Lifer
Rotors aside wheel studs are prone to failing when overtorqued, not to mention HTF do you get your tire off should you break down when a grease monkey torqued a 70ft/lb lug to 250lbs...also the damage to wheels is much easier than rotors, esp aluminum.
Also I am willing to bet people are having problems and simply not realizing it. You can't 'see' a warped rotor usually.
HannibalX
Diamond Member
Are you a tire installer? Using an impact gun to run up lug nuts is just lazyness. I don't care if you use an exstention, you will warp rotors. It may not happen every time, or even the day of the install, but a few days down the road, they will warp, I have had it happen to me when careless tire installers used an impact gun.
Well, I'd take bet and win it. Sorry, but as I said, 70+ techs were doing this on a daily basis, and most of our business was repeat, or would be repeat later. We did not, and even now the place still does not have a problem with warping brake rotors.
Most studs probably wouldn't take 250lbs, but regardless, that's a ridiculous amount...no competent mechanic could/would overtighten them that badly.
I'll bet dollars to dougnuts that I can take and impact gun, put 100 wheels on, and there will be no more than 10-15 lb/ft difference in all of them....and that is an insignificant amount on a wheel.
Plus, I've always done it this way on mine and my family members' cars/trucks, and nobody has ever had a problem. If you do this every day, you can easily never cause a problem.
BTW, you all DO realize that impact guns have strength settings, don't you? You don't have to use them on the WFO setting.
So I guess that having personally installed literally THOUSANDS of wheels and never had one come back doesn't count for anything? :roll:
And believe me we had PLENTY of repeat business for normal maintenance and rotations so it's not like we wouldn't have known if we were causing problems. It was at the largest car dealership in the Southeast, not a tire story that just slaps tires on and never sees the car again.
Sorry, but every shop's "Official" line is "sure, we always torque the lug nuts". But the majority in reality do not. And there is not an epidemic of warped rotors.
alkemyst
No Lifer
That is a torque head then which is what i had already stated earlier that you had to be using. I have no idea why you'd have kept that a secret in this thread though.
There are also places that use guns without them and many are capable of doing serious damage.
70 techs a day seems like a pretty major operation...but competent mechanic is right...however; many places the consumer doesn't know better.
This is why quickie lube places fvk up so many cars.
1. Not a torque head, unless you just have a different name for it. It's simply a way to turn down the power of your impact gun, just like you can turn down the power of an electric drill.
But you can't set any specific amount of torque. And I did it both ways....if you use it every day, you just know how much to tighten the bolts. Many times I've gone behind myself with a torque wrench just to see how close I was and it was as close as I said earlier.
I've seen many, many head jobs done with impact guns. And they never came back. (I didn't do it that way...but several of our engine men did...again, the experience thing)
2. It was the largest dealership in the Southeast. Also the #1 new car dealership in the country in tire sales. Yeah, a major operation.
3. Lube and tire shops are better off using torque wrenches or sticks....not because of warping rotors, but because of stud/nut damage potential, as you mentioned. But they aren't professional mechanics, for the most part. Just lube and tire monkeys. I was one of those, once upon a time. Gotta start somewhere.
My original point stands....you really aren't going to warp your rotor by overtightening.....as Alkemyst said, you do run a risk of damaging lug nuts or studs if you don't do that type of work on a daily basis.
alkemyst
No Lifer
it's a torque head...it may not be graduated into ft/lb markings but if you had access to the manual you'd see a range of torques.
Experience or not, there is no way someone is doing a head job right with an impact gun and no measure of torque specs. You can get lucky alot though...but you are more than likely making it a bitch of a job if that head ever has to come off again.
Experience or not, there is no way someone is doing a head job right with an impact gun and no measure of torque specs. You can get lucky alot though...but you are more than likely making it a bitch of a job if that head ever has to come off again.
Not really....I mean, just because you use a 200 lb/ft impact doesn't mean that everything you tighten with it is that tight.
I can easily take most any 1/2" impact gun and stop a lug nut around 90-100 lb/ft...average lug nut torque...without decreasing the power.
Yeah, you could hold the trigger down for longer and wring the stud off if you wanted to, but an experienced mechanic knows how to avoid that.
Now that I think about it, I should say that maybe if you just tightened the hell out of some lug nuts with a strong impact gun, like 180 lb/ft or something ridiculous like that, that might warp something.
So if a person is THAT stupid, they should definitely use a torque wrench. All my assertions assume a person knows how to just hit the trigger a couple extra times to get the right torque, and they don't just hold the trigger until the lug nut stops moving.
Head bolts, now that's a different ball game. I always figured they'd be a bit more sensitive to torque, so I never tried that with an impact. But I've seen our engine men do it many a time. One dude did so many of the old Escort heads back in the late 80's it was funny...it wasn't because of bad head gaskets, it was from broken timing belts and subsequently bent valves.
But he was fast....he could do 2 a day, easily, 3 if he was in a hurry. He tightened the head bolts with an impact and pretty much never had a comeback.
alkemyst
No Lifer
you are hurting your own argument. A head needs to be torqued pretty accuarately and evenly to prevent problems down the road. Being is a rough range may work much of the time, but ABSOLUTELY no competent mechanic (which is what your debate is about really) would use an impact wrench and not have a torque wrench available for headwork.
You can also overtorque with a torque wrench...
Your arguments that items weren't coming back don't mean a lot. For one with 70 techs I strongly doubt you had recollection or knowledge of every vehicle to come through. Also many bring cars back without any real problem anyway so saying you have none is suspect.
You overtorque a head and the problem is going to be found should that head ever have to come off again which is why much of the time you may be able to get away with it.
You can also overtorque with a torque wrench...
Your arguments that items weren't coming back don't mean a lot. For one with 70 techs I strongly doubt you had recollection or knowledge of every vehicle to come through. Also many bring cars back without any real problem anyway so saying you have none is suspect.
You overtorque a head and the problem is going to be found should that head ever have to come off again which is why much of the time you may be able to get away with it.
You need to learn more about engines before you start lecturing me on torquing head bolts. You will see absolutely no difference when you remove the head if the bolt is a little bit too tight. None, nada. Remember, most mechanics certainly remove head bolts with air tools. They'd never know the difference.
Sorry, but head bolts, by and large, and simply not that sensitive. I'm sure there might be a few that are, but most aren't.
What you evidently don't realize is that torquing a bolt a bit tighter isn't really going to affect the head at all. What you are doing by torquing is stretching the bolt itself to what the maker had determined is a good point where it will still hold whatever it's clamping, and not break or get loose. Rod bolts, main bearing bolt....all the same reason for torquing.
So you aren't going a hurt the head at all if you accidently tighten it a bit too much....the part you're putting at risk is the bolt.
I agree that it's much better in all cases to be safe then sorry and use a torque wrench, but all I'm trying to illustrate is that is CAN be done without repercussions, even though the vast majority of folks really shouldn't do it....there's no voodoo to it at all.
Sorry, but head bolts, by and large, and simply not that sensitive. I'm sure there might be a few that are, but most aren't.
What you evidently don't realize is that torquing a bolt a bit tighter isn't really going to affect the head at all. What you are doing by torquing is stretching the bolt itself to what the maker had determined is a good point where it will still hold whatever it's clamping, and not break or get loose. Rod bolts, main bearing bolt....all the same reason for torquing.
So you aren't going a hurt the head at all if you accidently tighten it a bit too much....the part you're putting at risk is the bolt.
I agree that it's much better in all cases to be safe then sorry and use a torque wrench, but all I'm trying to illustrate is that is CAN be done without repercussions, even though the vast majority of folks really shouldn't do it....there's no voodoo to it at all.
alkemyst
No Lifer
REMOVING with an impact has nothing to do with TIGHTENING with an impact.
Here we go another lube and tire guy claiming he is an expect at cars. You could technically put a whole engine together with a impact gun or just a socket / wrench set. Doesn't mean it's right.
Threads are only so strong, you overtighten and then you are pulling them out of the engine...your bolt would be in perfect shape more than likely. You can also crack the mounting point of the bolt. Let me guess 'well not many cars use aluminum heads or blocks'....😕
you point only shows the exact reason most of us car experts aren't going to trust an idiot with tools to work on ours. You can do surgery too at home without sterlizing anything...doesn't mean it's safe.
please stick to oil change and wheel and tire threads. No matter how much you try to justify it, only a freaking idiot would forgo a torque wrench to do a job like replacing a head.
Here we go another lube and tire guy claiming he is an expect at cars. You could technically put a whole engine together with a impact gun or just a socket / wrench set. Doesn't mean it's right.
Threads are only so strong, you overtighten and then you are pulling them out of the engine...your bolt would be in perfect shape more than likely. You can also crack the mounting point of the bolt. Let me guess 'well not many cars use aluminum heads or blocks'....😕
you point only shows the exact reason most of us car experts aren't going to trust an idiot with tools to work on ours. You can do surgery too at home without sterlizing anything...doesn't mean it's safe.
please stick to oil change and wheel and tire threads. No matter how much you try to justify it, only a freaking idiot would forgo a torque wrench to do a job like replacing a head.
Aikouka
Lifer
Spark plugs have a ridiculously low torque spec, just hand tighten them. I think the plugs on my old stratus were 12 foot-pounds or something like that. Such a low amount that when you switch from the ratchet to the torque wrench, you do a slight turn and all you hear is *click*.
Hah that kind of reminds me of something. My dad was a Never-Seez (I think that's the brand's spelling) Nazi. I remember putting on this part and how it was a pain to get in there and all the bolts in. I was tightening up the last one and my dad came over. "You put never seez on them?" I just looked at him with a bit of dismay and started loosening all the bolts 🙁.
The one time I thought my lug nuts were tight enough, my wheel almost fell off. Since then, I stopped thinking and just used the torque spec for the lug nuts.
EDIT: Actually I think the torque spec for my old stratus was something in inch-pounds... really low.
Hah that kind of reminds me of something. My dad was a Never-Seez (I think that's the brand's spelling) Nazi. I remember putting on this part and how it was a pain to get in there and all the bolts in. I was tightening up the last one and my dad came over. "You put never seez on them?" I just looked at him with a bit of dismay and started loosening all the bolts 🙁.
The one time I thought my lug nuts were tight enough, my wheel almost fell off. Since then, I stopped thinking and just used the torque spec for the lug nuts.
EDIT: Actually I think the torque spec for my old stratus was something in inch-pounds... really low.
I never said that anyone SHOULD do a head job without a torque wrench. Just that is has been done and if done by an expert, he can get away with it.
In other words, since you don't seem to be comprehending that I'm saying "don't try this at home". Theorizing....not recommending that it be done. And no, not many domestics use aluminum blocks, not that it's relevant to the specific example I used.
And sorry, no lube and tire guy here. Sure, I've done plenty of that, but I think a CC degree in automotive, ASE certification, and more Ford Factory certs than you can shake a stick at sort of qualifies me as a bit more than a "lube and tire" guy.
Not to mention years and years of working as a line tech at the largest dealership in the Southeast.
Again, sorry, but my expertise comes from training and experience, not reading Car & Driver and a couple of service manuals, doing a few brake jobs, then proclaiming myself an "expert" on an internet forum.
Aikouka
Lifer
Umm I'm quite sure it was because I remember saying "wow that's a large number.. oh wait, that's inch-pounds.. little division... oh wait, that's a small number" I'd look it up, but since I don't own the Stratus anymore, I obviously don't own the book for it anymore.
EDIT: I'm also quite sure there's no such thing as "inch/lbs" anyway. That'd be inch-pounds 😛.
alkemyst
No Lifer
Nice to get personal now. I am thinking you have exaggerated your skills though especially when referring to other mechanics you have known as the one's that are more skilled and knowing by 'feel' how much torque an impact gun is giving.
but man, damn, if you really have all those certs and you still don't do things properly. That's messed up. Plus not knowing that the clutch on an impact gun is a torque device...
You yourself said it's not rocket science basically, but I have used more than a few service manuals and done more than a few brake jobs in my time. I have actually fixed dealership fckups that they kept getting wrong too.
I don't have a lot of faith in ASE mechanics. Face it most aren't mechanics because it's their calling in life. Also largest dealership is something I think I hear about 40 times a day by every car dealership commercial.
Unless they converted ft/lbs to inch/lbs, you're probably remembering wrong.
I've never seen that done for larger torque specs, but I guess there's always a first time.
This link says Stratus takes from 80-110 ft-lbs
That's pretty much in the range for most all car wheels, so even though it's not a Dodge site, it's probably right.
So if yours was 100 ft/lbs, that's 1200 inch/lbs. Or inch-lbs, if you prefer. Never seen anyone do it that way, but you never know with Dodge. 😉
Sigh.....you know, you are one of the last ones I would have expected on Anandtech to be reading and not comprehending. After reading your posts for all these years, my impression of you was much better than what you are displaying here. Always loved lots of your smart ass comments, too, but we're just not communicating on this for some reason...so, I'll try once more to explain what you've gotten totally wrong in the quoted post above:
1. Getting personal. You did it first, I followed suit. Sorry, I usually don't fire back but you kept egging it on, IMO. Examples?
Definitely a personal attack or at the very least a put-down.
Directed at me, obviously insulting.....Personal, as you say.
Again, more of the same, all three of these were in your last post I responded to. If those remarks aren't "getting personal", I don't know what is. Everyone else, feel free to jump in here and tell me if I'm perceiving this incorrectly, or if you feel those remarks were, as Alkymest put it, "getting personal".
I'll go ahead right now and issue an apology because even though you opened that door, I did walk through it.
2. I in no way exaggerated my skills. I merely listed a bit of my training/schooling in automotive repair. If anything, I significantly understated my training AND experience. In fact, I only mentioned it because of you questioning my knowledge in this area, while proclaiming yourself as one of the "experts".
You do remember that, right?
3.
How many times do I need to say:
(talking about lug nuts there, not head bolts)
Hello? Where have I said that I tighten head bolts with air tools or that I recommend anyone else do it? How about I say it yet again: I use a torque wrench and wouldn't ever use an impact to assemble any engine parts. I have seen others do head jobs with an impact with success, but again..and make sure you read this twice....I DON'T and DON'T RECOMMEND IT.
4.
Wasn't particularly bragging about the ASE, but it IS the most recognized certification. I agree that that in reality, it doesn't mean that much. Any kid straight out of tech school can pass the ASE, but can't actually fix anything much until he gets some experience.
I'm far more proud of my CC degree for automotive repair and my multiple Ford schools and classes and certs I took and received over the years. Ford prefers their own certs, too...the only reason we ever got ASE certs for awhile was Ford paid the dealership to send us. Now, they "support" ASE certification, but not with their $$$$....so the dealership doesn't send the techs to get ASE's anymore.
Factory training is FAR better than an ASE cert. Again, I simply mentioned it because more people recognize it, and...well, I got it. I left a lot out, honestly. When I took them, the ASE tests were heavily biased towards GM products in their questions/examples.
4. "Largest dealership". Lots of dealerships can claim some small niche of "the largest". Largest xxx-brand in xxx-region/state is the most popular.
My place was THE largest dealership of any kind in the Southeast, much less North Carolina. Last figures I remember (granted, a few years ago since I saw them) it was the #2 or 3 Ford dealer in the country, and the #10 dealer of any brand in the country. Don't know where they're ranked right now, but they are still huge. I know they're at least still the largest in the state.
5. Almost forgot: The "torque device" on impact guns. We're obviously not talking about the same thing. I'm talking about the flow regulator knob on the gun itself. It does nothing but cut the airflow down so the gun isn't as strong. I know there are some types of impacts that actually let you control the torque setting somewhat, and supposedly shut the gun down when that setting is reached, but nobody I know uses them. Regardless, we were obviously talking about different things.
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