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Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
0
0
Of course it's speech. It's Citigroup saying "Don't hurt us! Don't hurt us!"

Seriously, you have a good point, or rather, you would have a good point if you could explain why corporations donating money is evil corruption of the system whereas unions donating money is simply good government. Or why government funding both sides equally would be a Good Thing but a corporation funding both sides equally is a Bad Thing. Is it like stimulus dollars, where government handling adds in the magic smoke?

I think I more or less answered your question and maybe you just missed it ;) Corporations donating money isn't "evil corruption" by default (whether it's speech or not is another matter). The problem is when a corporation (or union, or whatever) donates equal amounts to both major political parties. That's not supporting a political position with money, that's just bribery and hedging your bets.

Government stimulus isn't the same thing at all, assuming there is a reason behind the donation besides attempting to gain favor. For a corporation donating to both major parties, I can't see an obvious reason beyond attempting to get personal benefit no matter who wins. Government stimulus can have other motivations.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,616
33,335
136
Of course it's speech. It's Citigroup saying "Don't hurt us! Don't hurt us!"

Seriously, you have a good point, or rather, you would have a good point if you could explain why corporations donating money is evil corruption of the system whereas unions donating money is simply good government. Or why government funding both sides equally would be a Good Thing but a corporation funding both sides equally is a Bad Thing. Is it like stimulus dollars, where government handling adds in the magic smoke?
Unions are groups of people joining together to further their cause. Corporations are not. If all 200 possum lovers in the US each donated $200 to a post turtle or if they joined together forming a Possum Union and that union donated $40k to the post turtle, what is the difference? Now, look at the flip side. If Possum Stuffers, Inc. (a corporation with 200 stockholders) donated $40k to a different post turtle, is that the same thing? Do you think all 200 stockholders of a single corporation have the exact same preferences when it comes to D or R?
 

blankslate

Diamond Member
Jun 16, 2008
8,797
572
126
There was a guy who didn't take money from unions or corporations but many idiots in the US and this forum think corruption is a good thing

Too bad that for every issue that he has reasonable views on he also has a wildly wacky view on another. So wacky as to negate the reasonable view.

But hey other than that I'm sure that he's a reasonably nice person.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Unions are groups of people joining together to further their cause. Corporations are not. If all 200 possum lovers in the US each donated $200 to a post turtle or if they joined together forming a Possum Union and that union donated $40k to the post turtle, what is the difference? Now, look at the flip side. If Possum Stuffers, Inc. (a corporation with 200 stockholders) donated $40k to a different post turtle, is that the same thing? Do you think all 200 stockholders of a single corporation have the exact same preferences when it comes to D or R?

People don't voluntarily hand over money to the union for political purposes, most of it is from mandatory political contributions from your paycheck.

When you work in many you don't have a choice but to join the union in most places, and political contributions to the union mandatory. I had thousands of dollars taken from me and given to the union for political purposes, it wasn't willingly it was taken against my will.
 

wirednuts

Diamond Member
Jan 26, 2007
7,121
4
0
Unions are idiots

fixed. i agree. ive been in one for a decade. im getting out, its a joke. for all the extra shit you deal with, you really dont make any more money at the end of the calendar year. but you have so many more obligations and bullshit... i cant wait until im back in a non union shop that actually gives a shit about their peeps.
 
Dec 10, 2005
29,624
15,189
136
People don't voluntarily hand over money to the union for political purposes, most of it is from mandatory political contributions from your paycheck.
What kind of crappy state do you live in or do you have proof of 'mandatory political contributions'? When I was a member of the Local 338 as a cashier in HS, there was a separate form to fill out if you wanted your dues or pass along extra in the form of political donations.
 
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umbrella39

Lifer
Jun 11, 2004
13,816
1,126
126
is it some kind of a crossbreed between a Pug and a Pelican? because that sounds awesome.

Apparently it's an insult whereas the ad nauseum Libtards, dimlibs, demcraps are not unless the new rules include blanket insults which are just as bad as a personal attack...
 
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DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
What kind of crappy state do you live in or do you have proof of 'mandatory political contributions'? When I was a member of the Local 338 as a cashier in HS, there was a separate form to fill out if you wanted your dues or pass along extra in the form of political donations.

I live in California. The only way to stop the deduction is to be a fair-share employee and hand deliver a letter to the union office each June to be a Non-Germane employee. The letter must be hand delivered in June, not before and not after, failure to hand deliver the letter means the Union will take $500 to $1000 of your paycheck next year ($45 to $100 each month). It must be redelivered each and every year. I didn't even know about this for the first few years I worked there, and many new employees are unaware of this. Voting union members can NOT opt out of the Mandatory political contributions. Another annoying this I will have to take time off work in order to hand deliver my letter.

The vast majority of states have laws that ALLOW this. This is how most unions work now.
 

trenchfoot

Lifer
Aug 5, 2000
16,138
8,728
136
I live in California. The only way to stop the deduction is to be a fair-share employee and hand deliver a letter to the union office each June to be a Non-Germane employee. The letter must be hand delivered in June, not before and not after, failure to hand deliver the letter means the Union will take $500 to $1000 of your paycheck next year ($45 to $100 each month). It must be redelivered each and every year. I didn't even know about this for the first few years I worked there, and many new employees are unaware of this. Voting union members can NOT opt out of the Mandatory political contributions. Another annoying this I will have to take time off work in order to hand deliver my letter.

The vast majority of states have laws that ALLOW this. This is how most unions work now.

As a former union business agent (now retired) for the past 25+ years who's been around the block and back more times than I can or care to mention, I beg to differ.
 

Ketchup

Elite Member
Sep 1, 2002
14,559
248
106
To me, this thread begs the question, who is evil? The corporation/union that offers the money to a candidate/congressman/etc, or the candidate/congressman/etc who takes the money and bases his decisions based on that contribution. Why are we assuming the contributor is the only evil party?
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,616
33,335
136
People don't voluntarily hand over money to the union for political purposes, most of it is from mandatory political contributions from your paycheck.

When you work in many you don't have a choice but to join the union in most places, and political contributions to the union mandatory. I had thousands of dollars taken from me and given to the union for political purposes, it wasn't willingly it was taken against my will.
Did you make more money than you would have if the union did not exist?
 

Ninjahedge

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2005
4,149
1
91
d69, sadly that was not what the unions were primarily for.

Money was a part of it, but they were pretty much put in there for working hours and benefits moreso than just the wage they earned.

The wage was another mechanism to allow them a bit of autonomy away from the company (which has been ruthlessly exploited by other industrial owners/managers and the like in keeping their employees indebted to "the company store" through underpay and overcharging of things like food).

This is not saying the Unions are pure. They are run by men and have been corrupted similarly. However, their interests really DO represent, on average, more of what the "people" want, and not what a few corporate interests want.

On an "evil scale" they are, again on average, less "evil" than big corporations which tend to be much more specific and targeted in their demands.

As an extension of what Blank has pointed out, lack of knowledge of "the big picture" leads one to make uninformed decisions based on ill-informed opinions. One has to look at what the companies and unions have lobbied for IN COMBINATION with their donations to see what good/harm has been done.

In my opinion, Monsato donating $1M in their local municipality and lobbying for more restrictive genealogical patents is more harmful than a union donating $10M and asking for the minimum wage to be bumped up.
 

DCal430

Diamond Member
Feb 12, 2011
6,020
9
81
Did you make more money than you would have if the union did not exist?

I have no issue giving dues to the union that help with negotiating better contracts. I have issue with them taking money from me to give to a political cause that I don't support.

Also NO I don't make any more more money then I would if the union didn't exist.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,249
55,798
136
I have no issue giving dues to the union that help with negotiating better contracts. I have issue with them taking money from me to give to a political cause that I don't support.

Also NO I don't make any more more money then I would if the union didn't exist.

While I agree that you should not have to opt out each and every year, political donations by unions frequently serve to fight against politicians who want to weaken union protections. While they may have other agendas as well, it's hard to underestimate how hostile Republicans are to unions.
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,616
33,335
136
d69, sadly that was not what the unions were primarily for.

Money was a part of it, but they were pretty much put in there for working hours and benefits moreso than just the wage they earned.

The wage was another mechanism to allow them a bit of autonomy away from the company (which has been ruthlessly exploited by other industrial owners/managers and the like in keeping their employees indebted to "the company store" through underpay and overcharging of things like food).

...

...

Also NO I don't make any more more money then I would if the union didn't exist.
I find this hard to believe. Union guys around here where union and non union can work on some of the same jobs make significantly more than non-union. Sometime 25%+ more. :confused:
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
No, the point is that the whole corporation owning politicians meme is just Democrat whining, and has no basis in truth.

I notice that until 2010 Goldman Sachs gave far more to Democrats. So much for Wall Street and the 1% backing Republicans...

The Dems had a supermajority. They were betting on the winners.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
fivethirtyeight usually has records on who funds who... I couldn't find the Walker recall election on there though.

I did find an interesting quote though about Wisconsin: "According to the US Bureau of Labor Statistics, Wisconsin was the only state in the country to have statistically significant job losses in the past year. Wisconsin lost 23,900 jobs between March 2011 and March 2012. The majority were government jobs, but that number included 6,100 private sector jobs, the most private sector jobs lost in any state. Scott Walker has a new theory about when the job situation will improve. He told NewsMax in an exclusive interview that job creators are waiting for him to win the recall."
 

werepossum

Elite Member
Jul 10, 2006
29,873
463
126
I think I more or less answered your question and maybe you just missed it ;) Corporations donating money isn't "evil corruption" by default (whether it's speech or not is another matter). The problem is when a corporation (or union, or whatever) donates equal amounts to both major political parties. That's not supporting a political position with money, that's just bribery and hedging your bets.

Government stimulus isn't the same thing at all, assuming there is a reason behind the donation besides attempting to gain favor. For a corporation donating to both major parties, I can't see an obvious reason beyond attempting to get personal benefit no matter who wins. Government stimulus can have other motivations.
I wasn't referring so much to government stimulus so much as pointing out that government would also fund both parties equally, at least initially. AS far as bribery, to some degree it is, but if both parties are funded then mostly it's protection money. If I fund your campaign but also fund your opponent, I'm not buying myself much good will - but perhaps if I give you both money, whichever of you wins won't hurt me and might even actually protect me from time to time. When a corporation gives overwhelmingly to one party, that's probably bribery.

Unions are groups of people joining together to further their cause. Corporations are not. If all 200 possum lovers in the US each donated $200 to a post turtle or if they joined together forming a Possum Union and that union donated $40k to the post turtle, what is the difference? Now, look at the flip side. If Possum Stuffers, Inc. (a corporation with 200 stockholders) donated $40k to a different post turtle, is that the same thing? Do you think all 200 stockholders of a single corporation have the exact same preferences when it comes to D or R?
Um, no. A union exists to protect its workers' interests; forty possum lovers might form a possum wrangler union, but a better example would be them forming a possum PAC. A desire to earn a good wage possum wrangling does not at all correlate to a desire for government-funded abortion, or a desire to have one's Second Amendment rights destroyed or have one's energy costs "necessarily skyrocketed". If forty possum lovers wished to fight for the interests of the possums they love, they would form a Possum Political Action Committee and donate to that.

A corporation is composed of people who voluntarily join that corporation by buying shares. In many states, one has absolutely no choice about joining a union if that workplace is unionized. Even in right-to-work states, many workplaces hire only through the union and one has no choice about joining the union if one wishes to work there. By contrast, one always has an easy choice about owning part of a corporation; just sell that stock and buy another. Both corporations and unions will have some people who do not agree with that entity's political contributions, but with the union, acting on that disagreement means suffering damage to one's career. If for instance I am a conservative steam fitter it's quite possible that every employer of steam fitters in my area is unionized and therefore avoiding donating to Democrats requires that I either give up my skilled trade or move out of the area. If on the other hand I am a liberal UPS stockholder, I can easily sell my UPS stock and purchase Federal Express stock. Trade unions' members for example typically vote roughly 40% Republican, yet their political contributions (including donated labor funded from union funds) as taken from their dues are virtually 100% Democrat. You would, I think, find few equivalents to that in the corporate world, but it's more or less ubiquitous among unions, they donate to democrats and Democrats use the power of government to reward them. Both unions and corporations will likely have a substantial percentage of dissenters who don't like their associated entity funding things they find abhorrent, but in one case avoiding this often involves losing one's livelihood whereas in the other it involves merely finding a more politically aligned and similarly lucrative investment opportunity.

I find this hard to believe. Union guys around here where union and non union can work on some of the same jobs make significantly more than non-union. Sometime 25%+ more. :confused:
I have experience only with the trade unions, but in general I'd say you are correct that the unionized worker typically earns more, even after dues, than his non-unionized counterpart. Sometimes the non-union shops pays its best tradesmen more if the job market is strong because he is competing with the perceived benefits of the union, but it almost always pays the mediocre tradesmen less even in a strong job market.

Trade unions also provide a benefit to the owner of their projects. Because the union insists on stringent educational curricula and training periods, and maintains (at least in theory) a relatively fixed ratio of master to journeyman to apprentice, the owner is assured of a minimum acceptable competence that might or might not be present with a non-union contractor. For instance, I ran into an area of Florida where some electrical contractors staffed jobs with one journeyman and twenty to forty illegal alien laborers, giving themselves a huge advantage in the bid market. While the project owner reaps only as much of this bid advantage as the non-union contractor thinks he needs to give up to win the bid, the project owner sees all the down side of having a poorly trained, unqualified work force who cannot read blueprints, much less understand them, rather than the skilled tradesmen he thinks he is getting. (In fairness, I should also say that I've worked with some very good non-union contractors; I'd just say that almost all union contractors are at least competent whereas many non-union contractors are not at all competent.)

Unions have given themselves a very bad name, but trade unions remain a force that adds value as well as protecting and benefiting their workers in my experience.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,674
15,074
146
People don't voluntarily hand over money to the union for political purposes, most of it is from mandatory political contributions from your paycheck.

When you work in many you don't have a choice but to join the union in most places, and political contributions to the union mandatory. I had thousands of dollars taken from me and given to the union for political purposes, it wasn't willingly it was taken against my will.

Bullshit. In California, you simply fill out a form that tells the union that you don't want any of your dues money used for political purposes. You may or may not have to do this annually, (been several years since I dealt with it) but it's the law in California and applies to state workers and their unions just like it does to "private employees" and the unions who represent them.
I represented California BU 12 several years ago, so I was pretty well trained in this at the time.

If you don't want to pay union dues...you have the option to pay "agency fees" instead. Those simply recoup the costs of bargaining on your behalf by the unions...without the pesky hassle of actual union membership. Of course, should something happen in the workplace, don't expect to be represented by the union steward or business agent...
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,674
15,074
146
I have experience only with the trade unions, but in general I'd say you are correct that the unionized worker typically earns more, even after dues, than his non-unionized counterpart. Sometimes the non-union shops pays its best tradesmen more if the job market is strong because he is competing with the perceived benefits of the union, but it almost always pays the mediocre tradesmen less even in a strong job market.

Trade unions also provide a benefit to the owner of their projects. Because the union insists on stringent educational curricula and training periods, and maintains (at least in theory) a relatively fixed ratio of master to journeyman to apprentice, the owner is assured of a minimum acceptable competence that might or might not be present with a non-union contractor. For instance, I ran into an area of Florida where some electrical contractors staffed jobs with one journeyman and twenty to forty illegal alien laborers, giving themselves a huge advantage in the bid market. While the project owner reaps only as much of this bid advantage as the non-union contractor thinks he needs to give up to win the bid, the project owner sees all the down side of having a poorly trained, unqualified work force who cannot read blueprints, much less understand them, rather than the skilled tradesmen he thinks he is getting. (In fairness, I should also say that I've worked with some very good non-union contractors; I'd just say that almost all union contractors are at least competent whereas many non-union contractors are not at all competent.)

Unions have given themselves a very bad name, but trade unions remain a force that adds value as well as protecting and benefiting their workers in my experience.

:thumbsup:

I was a member of a trade union for decades. The difference between union wages and non-union wages is often referred to as the "non-union dues" and can be VERY substantial. Here in Norcal, a GOOD non-union equipment operator will make between $15 and $20/hour...but a union equipment operator will make $30+...and the union contract only spells out the MINIMUM that the contractor has to pay...they're free to pay more to keep a good employee. (I almost always made $3 to $5/hr over scale)

Bad employees get fired and sent back to the hall. My union never tolerated slackers of fuck-ups...and those employees who are consistently run off as "unqualified" soon find themselves not getting dispatched to jobs until they can prove their qualifications at our training center. (The union contract states that the employer retains the right to determine qualification...or not, and unfortunately, it takes 3 "not qualified" before they're required to re-certify)

As a working foreman on many jobs, I sent several guys back to the hall...some ROF'd to avoid potential hassles, others fired for cause, and still others as "not qualified."
 

dank69

Lifer
Oct 6, 2009
37,616
33,335
136
...

Um, no. A union exists to protect its workers' interests; forty possum lovers might form a possum wrangler union, but a better example would be them forming a possum PAC. A desire to earn a good wage possum wrangling does not at all correlate to a desire for government-funded abortion, or a desire to have one's Second Amendment rights destroyed or have one's energy costs "necessarily skyrocketed". If forty possum lovers wished to fight for the interests of the possums they love, they would form a Possum Political Action Committee and donate to that.

A corporation is composed of people who voluntarily join that corporation by buying shares. In many states, one has absolutely no choice about joining a union if that workplace is unionized. Even in right-to-work states, many workplaces hire only through the union and one has no choice about joining the union if one wishes to work there. By contrast, one always has an easy choice about owning part of a corporation; just sell that stock and buy another. Both corporations and unions will have some people who do not agree with that entity's political contributions, but with the union, acting on that disagreement means suffering damage to one's career. If for instance I am a conservative steam fitter it's quite possible that every employer of steam fitters in my area is unionized and therefore avoiding donating to Democrats requires that I either give up my skilled trade or move out of the area. If on the other hand I am a liberal UPS stockholder, I can easily sell my UPS stock and purchase Federal Express stock. Trade unions' members for example typically vote roughly 40% Republican, yet their political contributions (including donated labor funded from union funds) as taken from their dues are virtually 100% Democrat. You would, I think, find few equivalents to that in the corporate world, but it's more or less ubiquitous among unions, they donate to democrats and Democrats use the power of government to reward them. Both unions and corporations will likely have a substantial percentage of dissenters who don't like their associated entity funding things they find abhorrent, but in one case avoiding this often involves losing one's livelihood whereas in the other it involves merely finding a more politically aligned and similarly lucrative investment opportunity.


...
What does it tell you when a person votes for a party that, if it got its way, would effectively lower said person's salary?
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,674
15,074
146
What does it tell you when a person votes for a party that, if it got its way, would effectively lower said person's salary?

A working man who votes for a Republican is like a chicken who votes for Colonel Sanders...:biggrin: