Top 4 lies about Laissez-faire...

[fskimospy]

the more i read your posts the more i think you're in HS.

He has previously claimed to currently be in college at a tier 4 liberal arts school.

 

[bamacre]

Jay Gould, The Erie Railroad, receivership, issuing stock in excess of a companies value and cashing out leaving more outstanding shares than assets after his pay day, The United States Express company...

What was Gould's relationship with "Boss" Tweed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Gould

It was during the same period that Gould and James Fisk became involved with Tammany Hall. They made Boss Tweed a director of the Erie Railroad, and Tweed, in return, arranged favorable legislation for them. Tweed and Gould became the subjects of political cartoons by Thomas Nast in 1869. In October 1871, when Tweed was held on $1 million bail, Gould was the chief bondsman.

In August 1869, Gould and Fisk began to buy gold in an attempt to corner the market, hoping that the increase in the price of gold would increase the price of wheat such that western farmers would sell, causing a great amount of shipping of bread stuffs eastward, increasing freight business for the Erie railroad. During this time, Gould used contacts with President Ulysses S. Grant's brother-in-law, Abel Corbin, to try to influence the president and his Secretary General Horace Porter.

In 1873 Gould attempted to take control of the Erie Railroad by getting foreign investments from Lord Gordon-Gordon, a cousin of the Campbells looking to buy land for immigrants, Gould bribed Gordon-Gordon with $1 million in stock. However, Gordon-Gordon turned out to be a fraud, cashing the stock immediately. Gould sued Gordon-Gordon, with Gordon-Gordon put on trial in March 1873. Gordon-Gordon gave the names of his European personages in court, whom he claimed to represent, and was granted bail while the references were checked. Gordon-Gordon took this opportunity to flee to Canada, where he convinced authorities that the allegations brought against him were false.[15][16]

After failing to convince or force Canadian authorities to hand over Gordon-Gordon, Gould and his associates, which included two future Governors of Minnesota and three future Members of Congress, attempted to kidnap him. The group was successful, but were stopped and arrested by the North-West Mounted Police before they could return to the United States. The kidnappers were put in prison and refused bail.[15][16] This led to an international incident between the United States and Canada. Upon learning that the kidnappers were not given bail, Governor Horace Austin of Minnesota demanded their return and put the local militia on a state of full readiness. Thousands of Minnesotans volunteered for a full military invasion of Canada. However, after negotiations, the Canadian authorities released the kidnappers on bail.[15][16] The incident resulted in Gould losing any possibility of taking control of Erie Railroad.

LOL, this guy wasn't just in bed with politicians, he was in bed with future politicians.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt

In 1868, Vanderbilt fell into a dispute with Daniel Drew, now treasurer of the Erie Railway. To get revenge, he tried to corner Erie stock, which led to the so-called Erie War. This brought him into direct conflict with Jay Gould and James Fisk Jr, who had just joined Drew on the Erie board. They defeated the corner by issuing "watered stock" in defiance of state law, which restricted the number of shares a company could issue. But Gould bribed the legislature to legalize the new stock.

Maybe, just maybe, "robber barons" were not people who were able to abuse "free markets" in order to succeed, but instead used government's power to make themselves wealthy and powerful. But then if this is not true, someone will come in here and give a better example.

But I give you some credit for trying, Turin. :thumbsup:

 

[Ldir]

2. Monopolies only last as long as someone else doesn't come up with a better product at a better price.

Monopolies can usually prevent this. They can buy out the inventor, steal the invention, cut off the inventor's supply lines, or make inventor and invention disappear. You seem to live in a fantasy land where resources are unlimited and everyone plays nice.

 

[Ldir]

Maybe, just maybe, "robber barons" were not people who were able to abuse "free markets" in order to succeed, but instead used government's power to make themselves wealthy and powerful. But then if this is not true, someone will come in here and give a better example.

But I give you some credit for trying, Turin. :thumbsup:

Sure they use government power to their advantage. They also use the power of wealth and other big businesses to strike deals to tighten their control and shut out others. They only thing special about using government is it is illegal. Everything else is excused as capatalism at work.

 

[QuantumPion]

Let the genetically wealth-challenged masses tremble. For the landlords are back with a feudal vengeance. Coming to a libertopia near you. (see nearest unemployed IT guys parents basements for more info)

Freedom is slavery. Slavery is freedom. Liberalism is standing on your head and telling the world they're upside down.

 

[bfdd]

Remember guys, Anarchist420 believes in the Austrian school of economics.

That school is notable because they are economists that try not to use math or falsifiable theories in their study of economics.

This should explain all you need to know about his ideas.

Good to know you think humans can be broken down into math and numbers.

 

[manimal]

Good to know you think humans can be broken down into math and numbers.

Have you ever seen the Movie Pi?



8:19...pressed return....

 

[Siddhartha]

OP,
How do you define "Laissez-faire"?

 

[bfdd]

Have you ever seen the Movie Pi?



8:19...pressed return....

lol

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Congratulations, you don't understand economics.

Yeah, no shit...

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Good to know you think humans can be broken down into math and numbers.

In a way, anything can be broken down into math...

If you don't get that, you don't understand math.

 

[dawp]

I didn't ask because I didn't know. I was hoping you'd provide some specific examples, not a link to wikipedia. How about one example, one name, and how that person abused free markets to get wealthy?

as was stated earlier in the thread:

John D Rockefeller
http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h957.html

 

[LegendKiller]

What was Gould's relationship with "Boss" Tweed?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jay_Go...://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornelius_Vanderbilt

Maybe, just maybe, "robber barons" were not people who were able to abuse "free markets" in order to succeed, but instead used government's power to make themselves wealthy and powerful. But then if this is not true, someone will come in here and give a better example.

But I give you some credit for trying, Turin. :thumbsup:

Most times the Robber Barrons had the money first then bought the politicians as their wealth increased to get more wealth. Could they have cornered markets on their own? Likely, but it wouldn't have been as fast or easy. Greasing the wheels was a means to and end, not the end itself.

Monopolies are not good for consumers. They can increase price at will as the traditional supply/demand relationship is altered by the lack of substitutes. Cheaper producers can be dealt with easily by dropping prices since bulk manufacturers who control all of the market can spread fixed costs across more products, thus increasing profit margin. As others have said, capital costs are a barrier to entry that requires volume to recoup, volume that cannot be gained if they cannot remain profitable *AND* price competitive against a larger and more marginally profitable mass producer monopolist.

As far as Libertopians not using numbers. Libertopians don't use numbers or simple psychology. They think that the "invisible hand" is a perfect system, that the market is perfectly efficient, and that those who have capital cannot abuse those without.

In essence, they exclude all individual or collective "market" irrationality.

 

[bamacre]

Rockefeller and his Standard Oil company was a good example before it was broken up in 1911.

This is a better example, but still one that will be argued forever. Certainly no one can argue against the benefits resulting from Standard Oil's strategies, prices for consumers fell through the floor. It seems their competitors were more unhappy than consumers.

Jones, Eliot. The Trust Problem in the United States pp. 89–90 (1922)

I'll have to look into him when I have some time.

 

[Phokus]

This is a better example, but still one that will be argued forever. Certainly no one can argue against the benefits resulting from Standard Oil's strategies, prices for consumers fell through the floor. It seems their competitors were more unhappy than consumers.



I'll have to look into him when I have some time.

Read this. This is an example of a monopoly created due to the network effect (no government intervention needed): Opentable

http://weeklysift.blogspot.com/2010/11/blessings-and-privileges.html#11222010third

OpenTable is great for the customers, but for restaurants, they actually destroy value. I mean, they're making $100K per restaurant (edit: clarification: their market capitalization is $100K per restaurant) and you KNOW restaurants already have very thin profit margins. Either you use opentable and they squeeze your profits, or you don't use them and customers won't go eat at your restaurant. At first opentable was bringing in new customers for the restaurants that used them, but because so many restaurants use opentable now, all they're doing is shifting customers around to different opentable restaurants. What a great proposition.