Question "too much RAM?"

[manly]

Couldn't afford a Pentium? I think a 486 was too slow for Windows 95. Unless you ran internet on Win3.1, which would've been very, very early on.

I originally installed Windows 95 on a 386 PC. A terrible decision.

Also, don't sleep on WfWG 3.11. Solid OS for its day.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My PC spec: 7800X3D / ASUS TUF GAMING B650-PLUS / 32GB DDR5-6000 (DOCP) - takes about 30 seconds from power-on to POST. It's weird to think that my old Haswell build could present me with the desktop way faster than this PC.

Since you have a 3D chip, you could try dropping down to DDR5-5200 to see if it needs less training time. The huge cache helps to mask the higher RAM latency.

 

[Fallen Kell]

I have 64GB of system memory, and it takes my computer much longer to boot probably due to the memory training going on. 32GB would probably boot up a lot faster, but I'm in no hurry. Note I don't actually think I'll ever need that much. I'd also buy a PCIE 5.0 NVME SSD if the price came down, just because. Because.

You should be able to fix that with correct BIOS/board settings. ASUS seems to do a horrible job out of the box with their motherboards and this issue and is definitely an offender in this problem, but they are not the only motherboard manufacturer with this problem. You need to set "Memory Context Restore" to "enabled" and possibly set "DRAM Power Down Mode" to "Enabled" as well. Both of these can cause some instability, so you do have to test (I think that is why ASUS has them set this way by default, but they certainly don't make life easy to find and change the behavior which is my biggest complaint).

Not sure if you have an ASUS board, but if you do:
You need to first enable advanced mode, then go to the "Extreme Tweaker" or "AI Tweaker" and you should see "Memory Context Restore" under there (as well as the "DRAM Power Down", but they label it "Power Down Enable").

Setting the above should have the system at least on a warm reboot, ignore the need to "retrain" the memory and use the previous values. On a complete power off (well, almost nothing is a complete power off now, but just a sleep/suspend), it will still do the training (which is probably needed due to the way the DDR5 system is designed).

 

[StefanR5R]

On the Amiga, some software is incompatible with Fast RAM. So you need to switch that off and only have Chip RAM then.

 

[CakeMonster]

On chip RAM looks like it might become a thing for Intel soon. AFAIK on mobile first, but if it arrives on desktop, I can imagine that adding more DDR5 will make the additional memory slower once you go above the on chip amount.

 

[igor_kavinski]

if it arrives on desktop

Maybe for OEM office PCs. Don't see this happening in the DIY sector. If it does, we are screwed.

 

[GunsMadeAmericaFree]

So if the memory is on the CPU, you could just buy a new processor, and upgrade the system RAM at the same time?

 

[igor_kavinski]

So if the memory is on the CPU, you could just buy a new processor, and upgrade the system RAM at the same time?

That's one way of looking at it. Or rather, throwing out the old CPU would be like throwing out the baby with the bathwater. That soldered RAM would be unusable for anyone who only wants a RAM upgrade but not a CPU upgrade. Modular upgradability is the reason the DIY industry is still thriving. The moment you start requiring people to buy an entire non-upgradable system, you are limiting their options, increasing output of trash in landfills, making it impossible for someone smart but financially poor to do something interesting.

Like suppose, take the Macbooks. Base configuration is 8GB system RAM. What will the typical developer do? He wants to increase the marketshare and audience for his software. He will obviously target 8GB. Even if he builds in support for additional RAM usage, most people won't be throwing out their perfectly functioning 8GB Macbooks just to use his software with 16GB RAM. So it limits innovation. Dumb marketing numbnuts from these successful companies have been emboldened by the success of the smartphone where the RAM is soldered. What they fail to see is that the smartphone has limited uses and you don't really do any serious work with it. For serious work, a DIY or OEM upgradable PC is a MUST.

These days, you really want minimum 32GB RAM. And if you game, the minimum goes up to 48GB.

 

[DrMrLordX]

And if you game, the minimum goes up to 48GB.

It does? Why? There's plenty of 2-4 year old systems out there still playing games with 16GB of RAM. Not that that's optimal mind you, since some video cards have more than that now. But still, 32GB should be overkill for most people. 48GB is over overkill.

 

[igor_kavinski]

But still, 32GB should be overkill for most people. 48GB is over overkill.

There are games that are consuming over 20GB of system RAM. With each passing year, that number will only increase, especially with open world games and higher resolution textures. Much faster to read frequently used assets from RAM than NVMe since there's no guarantee how fast a user's NVMe drive is gonna be. More certainty that a user will have at least DDR4-3200 or DDR5-4800.

 

[In2Photos]

I have 32GB on 3 different gaming PCs here and we never see that kind of utilization even on games like Hogwarts or Avatar. In fact Avatar was only using about 8GB the last time I played.

 

[igor_kavinski]

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/ufrn7o

Far Cry 5
Elden Ring
MSFS 2020
COD Warzone
Any game with mods

Plenty of 16GB people in that thread saying how 32GB reduced or eliminated stuttering during gameplay. So I would still recommend anyone to go with 32GB minimum if they are interested in serious PC gaming.

 

[manly]

https://www.reddit.com/r/buildapc/comments/ufrn7o

Far Cry 5
Elden Ring
MSFS 2020
COD Warzone
Any game with mods

Plenty of 16GB people in that thread saying how 32GB reduced or eliminated stuttering during gameplay. So I would still recommend anyone to go with 32GB minimum if they are interested in serious PC gaming.

That's different than you saying 48GB is the minimum yesterday. 😛

I have no insight into what direction the PC industry goes, but I'm not convinced DIMMs are going away anytime soon. I haven't "done my own research" but it should also be possible to have 2-tiered DRAM. Fast on-package RAM (let's say Apple's favorite number, 8GB) and you can still add modules on the side.

 

[igor_kavinski]

That's different than you saying 48GB is the minimum yesterday. 😛

I like to have available RAM. Lets me do fun stuff that I otherwise wouldn't be able to, like RAM drives. <<< very relevant to people wanting to play games with hyper loading speeds. Doom 3 or Quake 4 would fit on a RAM drive. Even Crysis. So for gamers, I would say 48GB is minimum. Unless they like buying barely sufficient RAM and then chucking out the old sticks and upgrading to larger RAM kits later on. Which to me just sounds wasteful.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I haven't "done my own research" but it should also be possible to have 2-tiered DRAM. Fast on-package RAM (let's say Apple's favorite number, 8GB) and you can still add modules on the side.

I hope something like that happens, rather than the industry moving to Apple's scummy way of doing things. But there would be more engineering work involved. I hope AMD does it first (two tiered DRAM). Intel will have no choice but to follow. Otherwise, they'll get boo-booed by enthusiasts.

 

[manly]

I like to have available RAM. Lets me do fun stuff that I otherwise wouldn't be able to, like RAM drives. <<< very relevant to people wanting to play games with hyper loading speeds. Doom 3 or Quake 4 would fit on a RAM drive. Even Crysis. So for gamers, I would say 48GB is minimum. Unless they like buying barely sufficient RAM and then chucking out the old sticks and upgrading to larger RAM kits later on. Which to me just sounds wasteful.

That's fine and I mainly agree that extra RAM (within reason) is a good thing. I'm even okay with calling 32GB a "minimum" but there's just not a lot of evidence to apply that language to 48GB, even for gamers.

DDR5 is still a bit pricey so I wouldn't universally recommend 48GB as a baseline for new builds. Those who need that much, or more, would figure it out.

 

[StefanR5R]

As an example of when too much RAM is a real issue,

On the Amiga, some software is incompatible with Fast RAM. So you need to switch that off and only have Chip RAM then.

On chip RAM looks like it might become a thing for Intel soon.

Not sure if @CakeMonster responded to @StefanR5R, but: Amiga's Chip RAM is memory which is shared between CPU and the Custom Chips, e.g. the Agnus chip with its blitter and Denise as the video processor. Chip RAM is not on-chip RAM, it's normal DRAM on the mainboard or can partially reside on an expansion card.

- - - - - - - -

it should also be possible to have 2-tiered DRAM. Fast on-package RAM (let's say Apple's favorite number, 8GB) and you can still add modules on the side.

I hope something like that happens, rather than the industry moving to Apple's scummy way of doing things. But there would be more engineering work involved.

Operating system and, to some extent, application software need to be NUMA-aware then. The popular operating systems in the x86 world should already have most of the necesary mechanisms and policies readily implemented, but some adaptations to tiered memory, especially in client computer usage scenarios, may still be needed.