[Tom's, XBitLabs, and AT] Water vs. Noctua NH-D14 and other big air coolers

[Termie]

Tom's comparo versus the Noctua: http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/water2.0-extreme-kraken-x40-hydro-h90-elc120,3434.html

XbitLabs' comparo versus the Phanteks: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/co...oling-corsair-thermaltake-zalman-roundup.html

XbitLabs' comparison of the Phanteks to high-end AIO water coolers: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/co...ing-corsair-thermaltake-zalman-roundup-2.html

Anandtech's comparison of big and small air coolers vs. water: http://anandtech.com/show/6830/cpu-...ers-from-noctua-silverstone-and-cooler-master

Here are two comprehensive reviews published today of multiple all-in-one water coolers versus the venerable and class-leading Noctua NH-D14, a huge, heavy, and absolutely dominant air cooler (see Tom's), and the new and highly-competitive Phanteks (see XBitLabs).

Lots of great insights here, but perhaps the most important is that water cooling has only one undeniable advantage over big air: it can be shipped installed without damaging the motherboard. Other than that, the water coolers are generally louder, do a poor job cooling the voltage regulators, and can only beat big air when run at high speed. All that and the big air is cheaper too. Any thoughts on when the water coolers might make sense other than for computers that must be moved around?

 

[dma0991]

Noctua makes good heatsinks and fans but AIO watercooling units usually come with crappy fans, hence the disadvantage of sealed units when it comes to noise. This isn't the case with a true custom loop as you could pair it up with good fans.

IMHO the advantage of watercooling is that it is capable of expelling the heat wherever you want it. You could probably do the same with air coolers but that consists of ugly and bulky ducts.

If you add in the GPU in the loop, made possible with AIO units like the Swiftech H220, the benefits of watercooling becomes apparent in terms of noise versus cooling performance.

 

[coffeejunkee]

Lots of great insights here, but perhaps the most important is that water cooling has only one undeniable advantage over bit air: it can be shipped installed without damaging the motherboard. Other than that, the water coolers are generally louder, do a poor job cooling the voltage regulators, can only beat big air when run at high speed. All that and the big air is cheaper too. Any thoughts on when the water coolers might make sense other than for computers that must be moved around?

I can see it being useful for boutiques, but I'd just remove the cooler before transporting. For LAN parties, transport horizontally. But there are a few more advantages:
- ability to use ram with tall heatspreaders, especially on X79 boards.
- for use in overclocked mITX system
- and most importantly: it looks cool! (lets face it: for a lot of people building pc's is about looks nowadays. Personally I'm getting bored with all the watercooled pc's though, altough a bit rough around the edges I think this looks much cooler: http://forums.bit-tech.net/showthread.php?t=255863)

IMHO the advantage of watercooling is that it is capable of expelling the heat wherever you want it. You could probably do the same with air coolers but that consists of ugly and bulky ducts.

Exactly how does it matter? For most systems aircooling is perfectly adequate, no need for ducts, couple casefans move heat good enough. To me, watercooling only really makes sense with multiple gpu's, that can get noisy fast. But we're talking about cpu coolers here, and although it's true that you can overclock slightly further on the best aio cpu coolers it's not worth the extra money and noise for me.

 

[dma0991]

Exactly how does it matter? For most systems aircooling is perfectly adequate, no need for ducts, couple casefans move heat good enough. To me, watercooling only really makes sense with multiple gpu's, that can get noisy fast. But we're talking about cpu coolers here, and although it's true that you can overclock slightly further on the best aio cpu coolers it's not worth the extra money and noise for me.

It really matters if the case is small and cramped that it affects the air cooler's performance. Its much harder to find a case(eg. Silverstone TJ08-E) that is small but big enough to fit the Noctua NH-D14. With AIO, you are not constrained by the dimension of the case but more by determination and imagination to cram in an AIO into a small case. Cutting a 120mm hole for a radiator would look neater than cutting a hole so that you could close the side panel.

 

[BrightCandle]

The problem with the premade water coolers is that the limitation is in the interface to the air. If you just look at the surface area of the radiators on them compared to a massive cooler like the NH-D14 then you can clearly see its going to perform noticeably worse. Its still got to exchange all its heat with the air and there is no getting around that fact. Worse still is its got water between the CPU and the air output which is fair from a great conductor especially compared to metal on metal.

The only way to make watercooling outperform air is to spread the cooling need over a larger area than is possible in the CPU area. There are diminishing returns obviously but its possible to dissipate 250W effectively using watercooling whereas air tops out around 150W. The premades however rarely have good fans or decent radiators and they also tend to have relatively low powered pumps as well. All of which reduce the performance in comparison to a custom made loop. In practice +47C over ambient is already pretty good and I even with my monster cooling system I don't see much better than +37C. 10C for hundreds of pounds worth of cooling kit, well it was worth 100Mhz in the end that is all.

 

[coffeejunkee]

It really matters if the case is small and cramped that it affects the air cooler's performance. Its much harder to find a case(eg. Silverstone TJ08-E) that is small but big enough to fit the Noctua NH-D14. With AIO, you are not constrained by the dimension of the case but more by determination and imagination to cram in an AIO into a small case. Cutting a 120mm hole for a radiator would look neater than cutting a hole so that you could close the side panel.

I understand now, I also said 'for use in a mITX system' but it goes for any small case ofcourse, although there are some rather good topdown coolers available as well.

Well anyway, these things are popular and I think there are quite a few people who buy them and think 'wow, watercooling...it must be way better than air' without ever looking at a review. Speaking of which, spcr has a review up of the Coolermaster Seidon 240. Obviously it performs good at full speed but performance drops off rather dramatically at low fanspeeds: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1338-page6.html

 

[Termie]

Interesting counterpoint:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-a-pc-tahiti-le-crossfire-overclocking,3454-15.html

In a different article just published, Tom's finds that the Noctua may have permanently damaged three separate budget motherboards (the AsRock z77 Extreme4), due to warping the PCB.

So, there are serious issues with a cooler this large, at least when used with cheap motherboards. If you're spending this much on a cooler, though, you really shouldn't be cheaping out elsewhere. It's all about building a balanced system. I'm going to cross post this in Motherboards, since people here are seemingly madly in love with AsRock's cheap offerings.

 

[dma0991]

Well anyway, these things are popular and I think there are quite a few people who buy them and think 'wow, watercooling...it must be way better than air' without ever looking at a review. Speaking of which, spcr has a review up of the Coolermaster Seidon 240. Obviously it performs good at full speed but performance drops off rather dramatically at low fanspeeds: http://www.silentpcreview.com/article1338-page6.html

The CM Seidon uses high FPI radiators. The strength of high FPI rads is when you have high static pressure fans or fast ones. When you use slow fans, it will affect its performance. Using low FPI radiators, fairly good performance at low fan speed while compromising some of the performance of a denser radiator.

The reviewer shouldn't reduce the pump voltage unless it is a feature. AIO pumps are anemic as it is, reducing its voltage just makes it worse. There's nothing much can be done about the pump noise if the pump is small and has to work harder to keep up.

The fans aren't great either, CM Blademaster aren't known to be quiet. Similar ones used on CM Hyper212+, they get the job done but it is far from silent when its max speed is >2kRPM.

It might sound like I'm rooting for AIO units but I actually would not consider getting it. I'd rather go all out on a custom loop if performance is all I care. If I were to do a build for someone, I'd go with large air coolers for its reliability.

 

[_Rick_]

For a Lian-Li PC-A55 (yes that case, I just suggested my brother to get an H90 instead of a Macho HR2 (the only 120mm haetsink with any hope of fitting in that case.

Reason: There is no airflow from the front, and there is a big 140mm fan in the top.
The air flow in that case benefits quite a lot, from putting the radiator closer to the outside of the case. The only risk, is that the rad interferes with the mainboard. There isn't much room at the top...

 

[coffeejunkee]

Interesting counterpoint:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-a-pc-tahiti-le-crossfire-overclocking,3454-15.html

In a different article just published, Tom's finds that the Noctua may have permanently damaged three separate budget motherboards (the AsRock z77 Extreme4), due to warping the PCB.

So, there are serious issues with a cooler this large, at least when used with cheap motherboards. If you're spending this much on a cooler, though, you really shouldn't be cheaping out elsewhere. It's all about building a balanced system. I'm going to cross post this in Motherboards, since people here are seemingly madly in love with AsRock's cheap offerings.

This is actually the first time I hear about this happening. But it seems the problem has more to do with the motherboard than with the cooler. What HardOCP had to say about Extreme 4:

"One of the first things that caught my eye about the ASRock Z77 Extreme4 was the wavy PCB and just how thin it was. When I put it on my top deck station for testing and put RAM modules into it I heard a crack and had one of those "uh oh" moments. Fortunately the system fired right up and went through testing without any problems what so ever. In all the years I’ve worked with computer hardware I’ve never in my life seen a more fragile and flexible motherboard PCB."

http://www.hardocp.com/article/2013...e4_lga_1155_motherboard_review/6#.UTnKaJBgW70

There were no problems using the Gigabyte replacement board. Obviously it wasn't tested long term, but with the 1000's of NH-D14 sold, if this really happened regularly you'd expect to hear about it more often.

Liquid cooling isn't without its dangers too ofcourse:
http://www.overclock.net/t/1300669/...to-my-brand-new-graphics-card-and-motherboard
http://forum.corsair.com/v3/showthread.php?t=110322&highlight=leak

The CM Seidon uses high FPI radiators. The strength of high FPI rads is when you have high static pressure fans or fast ones. When you use slow fans, it will affect its performance. Using low FPI radiators, fairly good performance at low fan speed while compromising some of the performance of a denser radiator.

The reviewer shouldn't reduce the pump voltage unless it is a feature. AIO pumps are anemic as it is, reducing its voltage just makes it worse. There's nothing much can be done about the pump noise if the pump is small and has to work harder to keep up.

The fans aren't great either, CM Blademaster aren't known to be quiet. Similar ones used on CM Hyper212+, they get the job done but it is far from silent when its max speed is >2kRPM.

It might sound like I'm rooting for AIO units but I actually would not consider getting it. I'd rather go all out on a custom loop if performance is all I care. If I were to do a build for someone, I'd go with large air coolers for its reliability.

SPCR uses a bit different testing, they set a dB limit and then see which coolers perform best below this limit. They found little difference in cooling performance running the pump at 12V or 7V but it did lower the dB's a bit, thus giving it a better dB/cooling ratio overall.

It sure could use better fans, but it already costs $100...

 

[lehtv]

For a Lian-Li PC-A55 (yes that case, I just suggested my brother to get an H90 instead of a Macho HR2 (the only 120mm haetsink with any hope of fitting in that case.

HR-02 Macho is 140mm. You probably mean the Macho-120.

 

[aigomorla]

Noctua makes good heatsinks and fans but AIO watercooling units usually come with crappy fans, hence the disadvantage of sealed units when it comes to noise. This isn't the case with a true custom loop as you could pair it up with good fans.

IMHO the advantage of watercooling is that it is capable of expelling the heat wherever you want it. You could probably do the same with air coolers but that consists of ugly and bulky ducts.

If you add in the GPU in the loop, made possible with AIO units like the Swiftech H220, the benefits of watercooling becomes apparent in terms of noise versus cooling performance.

AIO => All in One

Incase you guys didnt know terminology.

Swiftech also has a AIO which uses entry lvl custom LC parts which really shouldnt be considered AIO.

The problems with AIO is that:

1. They use a very weak pump.
The pump is the heart in any LC system. Its like your heart.
Would you want a weak heart pumping blood though your body?
Water Coolant is like Blood.
Instead of Carrying Oxygen, it carries heat.
In LC numbers we recorded a flow rate of .75-1gpm as IDEAL.
In AIO's ur lucky to get a 1/4th of that number.

2. Block Quality.
AIO's use the crappiest waterblock design.
Its intended that way to keep production cost low.
There is a reason why a high performance waterblock costs as much as an entire AIO kit. At the same time these blocks require good pumps to unlock potential.

3. Over Mixed Etyl Glycol.
AIO will saturate there coolant with etyl glycol.
Straight water is always the best medium, unless u change coolant entirely.
Everytime u mix something in water you lose the holding potential in water.
(ignoring nano particles ... but those bring other issues to the table...)

4. Shortest loop always wins..
This is where AIO's shine tho.
Cuz the loop is very small and tight, you can get away with a lot of things.
Intead of having big loop snakes in custom setup, AIO;s are tight and compact.


In reality i wish they wouldnt call AIO's a true watercooling product.
Its almost like calling a heat pipe system a phase unit vapo unit to me..

 

[Pohemi]

In a different article just published, Tom's finds that the Noctua may have permanently damaged three separate budget motherboards (the AsRock z77 Extreme4), due to warping the PCB.

So, there are serious issues with a cooler this large, at least when used with cheap motherboards. If you're spending this much on a cooler, though, you really shouldn't be cheaping out elsewhere. It's all about building a balanced system. I'm going to cross post this in Motherboards, since people here are seemingly madly in love with AsRock's cheap offerings.

I really wanted to pick up an NH-D14, but I've been reading about this issue with the lower end AsRock boards and I don't want to risk damaging my 970 Extreme3. I've considered upgrading the board to a 990X, or choosing a smaller aircooler.

I used an H70 AIO on a build I did two years ago, and while it did a decent job cooling the 2600K it was mounted on, it wasn't leaps and bounds above the Zalman aircooler it replaced. It also emitted a high pitched whine whenever the pump had to kick into high gear. Not sure I'd want to consider another AIO unit, based on performance per dollar. I just feel that I can get as good of performance out of a beastly (and cheaper) air cooler.

FWIW, I don't frequently have to move my case, and while it's not a full tower, my Corsair 300R mid can fit most of the larger air coolers.

 

[Termie]

I really wanted to pick up an NH-D14, but I've been reading about this issue with the lower end AsRock boards and I don't want to risk damaging my 970 Extreme3. I've considered upgrading the board to a 990X, or choosing a smaller aircooler.

I used an H70 AIO on a build I did two years ago, and while it did a decent job cooling the 2600K it was mounted on, it wasn't leaps and bounds above the Zalman aircooler it replaced. It also emitted a high pitched whine whenever the pump had to kick into high gear. Not sure I'd want to consider another AIO unit, based on performance per dollar. I just feel that I can get as good of performance out of a beastly (and cheaper) air cooler.

FWIW, I don't frequently have to move my case, and while it's not a full tower, my Corsair 300R mid can fit most of the larger air coolers.

Have you considered one of the smaller air coolers, like the Thermalright True Spirit 140?
Link: http://www.superbiiz.com/detail.php?name=FAN-TS140

It delivers excellent performance without breaking the bank (or your motherboard).

 

[UaVaj]

In a different article just published, Tom's finds that the Noctua may have permanently damaged three separate budget motherboards (the AsRock z77 Extreme4), due to warping the PCB.

So, there are serious issues with a cooler this large, at least when used with cheap motherboards. If you're spending this much on a cooler, though, you really shouldn't be cheaping out elsewhere. It's all about building a balanced system. I'm going to cross post this in Motherboards, since people here are seemingly madly in love with AsRock's cheap offerings.

link please.

have a deepcool assassin and z77 extreme4. the extreme4 is pretty flimsy. looks like it is a 4 layer pcb.

luckly it has beeen sitting horizonatal since build so no warping yet.

 

[UaVaj]

decided again water cool on the last build. i7-3770k.

IMHO - only time to even consider custom water cooling is: (1) multi gpu to give the gpu breathing room or (2) extreme over clocking.

with tri and quad setup - gpu bearly have any breathing room being air cooled.

as for everything else. as long as it is open case design or good air flow. air cool is more than sufficent and more than adequate.

 

[Termie]

link please.

have a deepcool assassin and z77 extreme4. the extreme4 is pretty flimsy. looks like it is a 4 layer pcb.

luckly it has beeen sitting horizonatal since build so no warping yet.

Interesting counterpoint:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/build-a-pc-tahiti-le-crossfire-overclocking,3454-15.html

In a different article just published, Tom's finds that the Noctua may have permanently damaged three separate budget motherboards (the AsRock z77 Extreme4), due to warping the PCB.

So, there are serious issues with a cooler this large, at least when used with cheap motherboards. If you're spending this much on a cooler, though, you really shouldn't be cheaping out elsewhere. It's all about building a balanced system. I'm going to cross post this in Motherboards, since people here are seemingly madly in love with AsRock's cheap offerings.

To clarify, I meant the link that was above that comment I made about Tom's. It was a bit out of order, but the link was there.

 

[_Rick_]

HR-02 Macho is 140mm. You probably mean the Macho-120.

Wasn't that the HR-04?

But yes, the 120mm Macho is the one I meant.
In the end went for the Noctua 92mm solution though. Of course, they don't have PWM fans, and modern boards are killing off voltage fan control, so it's not ideal.

Oh and yeah, the H90 didn't fit , and even an adapted H70 wouldn't have fit, so it's not an option for that case, except if you have a mainboard with no caps at the top, and you get the 140mmx15mm fan from Prolimatech.

 

[Termie]

Seems like this topic is popular with reviewers suddenly. Two new articles published in the past few days:
.
XbitLabs' comparison of the Phanteks to high-end AIO water coolers: http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/co...ing-corsair-thermaltake-zalman-roundup-2.html

Anandtech's comparison of big and small air coolers vs. water: http://anandtech.com/show/6830/cpu-...ers-from-noctua-silverstone-and-cooler-master

These two articles seem to come to different conclusions than the first two mentioned in the thread. So I guess if you're in the market, you should draw your own conclusions based on all the available data.