toms hardware puts up article on ati's filtering game

[Goredan]

I thought Nvidia got the black eye for adding in some lines of code in the drivers on how the card should handle things during certain parts of benchmarks, or on different games that are used the most for benchmarks. It was that reason why people were so upset. Or thats my understanding of it. Here's a link to a forum with more info on it.

http://www.pchardwareforum.com/showthread.php?s=1006fe35ff71c8f0419166954c24c474&threadid=10601&highlight=driver+cheats

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: rbV5

ATi deserves credit for the fact that the image quality of the cards is not visibly compromised by this filtering; at least no example has yet been seen of this.

not really.. it's easily noticeable when moving, even tho it's not really noticeable in still shots.

 

[ZobarStyl]

Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Ackmed

Originally posted by: DAPUNISHER

Originally posted by: tk109
That's low of ATI. They outright lied and hid it. Then they told reviewers to make sure they turned on trilinear on the nvidia card even though the whole time ATI didn't even do full trilinear. The tests weren't done fairly. They need to redo the tests, one with and one without the cheats. Seems without their optomizations ATI cards take quite a large hit.

That's the problem and all the IQ remains excellent appologies will not wish it away. While I herald the advancement, the tactics employed are reprehensible and ATi derserves a good flaming for it just as much as nV deserved the ones they've gotten for their tricks, period.

I agree what they did was shady, and they deserve some bad press. The difference is, NV degraded quality, while ATi hasnt.

noq that's a totally BS statement. optimized, they both provide similar quality - so either both degraded it, or neither did.

the only difference here is the way in which they applied it - ati claimed "full" trilinear, and specifically instructed reviewers to turn off nv applications when comparing - a clear act of deception on ati's part. nvidia announced "brilinear"; they didn't hide it and decieve reviewers into to making unfair comparisons.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: Ackmed
I dont think most people would have had a problem with what they did, if they had just said it to start with. Put it in the release notes, and told the reviewers. Its been going on for over a year, and it there was an IQ loss, people would have noticed a long time ago.

Still, I dont like the fact they kept it secret.

heh.. wouldn't have anything to do with that fact that the cards which came under close scrutiny the past year - the 9800pro/9800xt - did not use this method.

the x800pro doesn't need this "optimization" to be playable, it needs it to look better when benchmarking against the competition.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: LTC8K6
It will be hilarious if ATI lets you turn it off in the next set of drivers.

no, it would be fair.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

 

[ZobarStyl]

Thanks Cainam...once again it's great to hear it from someone who knows.

 

[rbV5]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: rbV5

ATi deserves credit for the fact that the image quality of the cards is not visibly compromised by this filtering; at least no example has yet been seen of this.

not really.. it's easily noticeable when moving, even tho it's not really noticeable in still shots.

Easily noticeable when moving doesn't sound good to me (they didn't notice?), and odd that it hasn't been noticed before. Probably because most users aren't using the higher quality settings anyway, especially on the less powerfull cards. I use performance over quality AF settings myself.

I think they should just let the user choose if full trilinear is worth the performance hit, especially if its easily noticable.

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

I havent kept up but youve got a x800 man?
And you can actually see where this adaptive filtering is taking effect? Thats not a good things....I remember banding on my GF2 PRO back in the day when playing HL mainly...you could see it on the floors....looked freakish...is this the same type of banding or is it different?

 

[CaiNaM]

for whatever reason some apps it's not as noticeable... could just be the way a particular game uses textures?

it's not really noticeable in say, painkiller - but i can notice in ut2k4. it also depends on the LoD of the ground textures - more noticeable in some areas than others.

my gripe about this is the same as it was with nv3x - you should have the choice of turning the "optimizations" of, especially as with r420, as it's simply not needed regarding playability - unless you are just trying to inflate benchmark scores, which imo is exactly what ati was doing: artificially inflating benchmark scores.

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM
for whatever reason some apps it's not as noticeable... could just be the way a particular game uses textures?

it's not really noticeable in say, painkiller - but i can notice in ut2k4. it also depends on the LoD of the ground textures - more noticeable in some areas than others.

Interesting so the claim of not hurting IQ is going to be pretty much up to the user no, if he/she can see it or not?

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: VisableAssassin

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

I havent kept up but youve got a x800 man?
And you can actually see where this adaptive filtering is taking effect? Thats not a good things....I remember banding on my GF2 PRO back in the day when playing HL mainly...you could see it on the floors....looked freakish...is this the same type of banding or is it different?

yea, i've had it since the 15th of last month. nice card

the "banding" is the same as the old GF2, but not as bad. you would need colored mipmaps to see it in a still shot (however ati uses full trilinear when using colored mipmaps, which effectively hides this effect when doing still comparisons), however it's prononced with movement - sort of a line that you see in front of you which moves with you as you move.

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: VisableAssassin

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

I havent kept up but youve got a x800 man?
And you can actually see where this adaptive filtering is taking effect? Thats not a good things....I remember banding on my GF2 PRO back in the day when playing HL mainly...you could see it on the floors....looked freakish...is this the same type of banding or is it different?

yea, i've had it since the 15th of last month. nice card

the "banding" is the same as the old GF2, but not as bad. you would need colored mipmaps to see it in a still shot (however ati uses full trilinear when using colored mipmaps, which effectively hides this effect when doing still comparisons), however it's prononced with movement - sort of a line that you see in front of you which moves with you as you move.

You can prove these claims and are absolutely sure that this is the cause of it?

 

[VisableAssassin]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: VisableAssassin

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

I havent kept up but youve got a x800 man?
And you can actually see where this adaptive filtering is taking effect? Thats not a good things....I remember banding on my GF2 PRO back in the day when playing HL mainly...you could see it on the floors....looked freakish...is this the same type of banding or is it different?

yea, i've had it since the 15th of last month. nice card

the "banding" is the same as the old GF2, but not as bad. you would need colored mipmaps to see it in a still shot (however ati uses full trilinear when using colored mipmaps, which effectively hides this effect when doing still comparisons), however it's prononced with movement - sort of a line that you see in front of you which moves with you as you move.

ouch....I remember those days...and I hated it...would dedract my attention to the floor soo much

 

[chsh1ca]

CaiNaM, could you use something like Fraps to capture a short video of the effect?

 

[nitromullet]

Ok, I see what you are getting at now, but how do we know that it isn't also that way with the Radeon in full Trilinear if there is no comparison?

Well isn't that the point of people being irritated with ATi, there is no alternative... One could probably get a the same screenshot from a 9800 Pro/XT to see what it would look like without the optimization.

CaiNaM, could you use something like Fraps to capture a short video of the effect?

Yeah, that would be interesting... By the way, just to for the record, I'm still jealous of you for owning this card no matter what. I know that is kicks the sh!t out of my FX 5900.

 

[CaiNaM]

i could, but the problem is the resolution is so crappy i'm not sure if you can see it....

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: nitromullet

Ok, I see what you are getting at now, but how do we know that it isn't also that way with the Radeon in full Trilinear if there is no comparison?

Well isn't that the point of people being irritated with ATi, there is no alternative... One could probably get a the same screenshot from a 9800 Pro/XT to see what it would look like without the optimization.

CaiNaM, could you use something like Fraps to capture a short video of the effect?

Yeah, that would be interesting... By the way, just to for the record, I'm still jealous of you for owning this card no matter what. I know that is kicks the sh!t out of my FX 5900.

well, i sold my 5900 to get the x800, but i have a 9700p and a 9800pro in my other rigs - and the problem is not noticeable as with the x800.

and yes, this x800 kicks the sh!t out of my old 5900 (tho i got $200 for it on ebay - great resale compared to ati), but i would prefer the ability of full trilinear - i mean, the card is plenty fast that the performance hit from full trilinear would not detract from the card in any way - it would only detract from the benchmark scores. i'd rather have the better IQ than the extra 5-10 FPS

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: VisableAssassin

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

I havent kept up but youve got a x800 man?
And you can actually see where this adaptive filtering is taking effect? Thats not a good things....I remember banding on my GF2 PRO back in the day when playing HL mainly...you could see it on the floors....looked freakish...is this the same type of banding or is it different?

yea, i've had it since the 15th of last month. nice card

the "banding" is the same as the old GF2, but not as bad. you would need colored mipmaps to see it in a still shot (however ati uses full trilinear when using colored mipmaps, which effectively hides this effect when doing still comparisons), however it's prononced with movement - sort of a line that you see in front of you which moves with you as you move.

You can prove these claims and are absolutely sure that this is the cause of it?

prove what? if you want to turn a blind eye to the truth and prefer to live in fantasyland, i could care less; your loss.

get an r420 and see for yourself.

btw, i do like my card, but that doesn't mean i have to be a fanboy

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: VisableAssassin

Originally posted by: CaiNaM

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Cainam is that with or without AF (or both) on that you notice the bilinear?

it's VERY apparent in DAOC. I use 4xAA 16xAF. you can easily see the "banding" or "moirre" of the mipmap transition when moving.

I havent kept up but youve got a x800 man?
And you can actually see where this adaptive filtering is taking effect? Thats not a good things....I remember banding on my GF2 PRO back in the day when playing HL mainly...you could see it on the floors....looked freakish...is this the same type of banding or is it different?

yea, i've had it since the 15th of last month. nice card

the "banding" is the same as the old GF2, but not as bad. you would need colored mipmaps to see it in a still shot (however ati uses full trilinear when using colored mipmaps, which effectively hides this effect when doing still comparisons), however it's prononced with movement - sort of a line that you see in front of you which moves with you as you move.

You can prove these claims and are absolutely sure that this is the cause of it?

prove what? if you want to turn a blind eye to the truth and prefer to live in fantasyland, i could care less; your loss.

get an r420 and see for yourself.

btw, i do like my card, but that doesn't mean i have to be a fanboy

What truth? Peoples declarations?

 

[BFG10K]

I can see now you arent LOOKING at the screenshots, are you...you are blindly stating that IQ isnt degraded..

Those articles are either in non-English, have broken links or are talking about AF comparison which is completely unrelated. If you're testing AF between the vendors it's easy to find situations where either vendor looks better than the other.

As for trilinear tests (which is what this discussion is about) there has been extensive analyses done of it and the best anyone could come up with was a few pixels were out of place when the image was massively magnified and carefully analyzed in a still shot. That's hardly what I'd call IQ degradation.

Movement might produce different results but screenshots aren't going to show that.

There's merit in claiming ATi were lying but we already knew they weren't doing full tri-AF when their control panel was controlling, so it's really nothing new. Besides, you appear to be turning a blind eye to nVidia's past antics over the last eighteen months.

I am now convinced you really do work for ATI

I hear places like nVidia and ATi are great to work at but alas, I'm not one of the lucky few who does.

oh wait, I am now awaiting "those screenshots are screwed up, the reviewers didnt know what they were doing"

Actually it's more like you don't know what you're arguing and you think that throwing a few random links in the air will argue for you.

Why is ATI's screenshots, ALWAYS darker? I dunno if it's a bug, or not, but tell me this, what color of pixel is easiest to render? black I'm just speculating with a theory

That's one of the most idiotic theories I've seen in a long time.

 

[phreaqe]

bfg10k, have you even read this thread, there is an owner of an x800 pro saying that he notices lowered image quality during game play. and yet you still say that ati is not lowering the image quality. you are one of the most blatently obvious fanboys i have ever seen

 

[sandorski]

Originally posted by: phreaqe
bfg10k, have you even read this thread, there is an owner of an x800 pro saying that he notices lowered image quality during game play. and yet you still say that ati is not lowering the image quality. you are one of the most blatently obvious fanboys i have ever seen

Doesn't mean anything. He may have things setup wrong, the game may have a bug with ATI drivers, who knows? Just because he may see some issue, it doesn't mean it has any relation to the subject at hand.

 

[CaiNaM]

Originally posted by: sandorski

Originally posted by: phreaqe
bfg10k, have you even read this thread, there is an owner of an x800 pro saying that he notices lowered image quality during game play. and yet you still say that ati is not lowering the image quality. you are one of the most blatently obvious fanboys i have ever seen

Doesn't mean anything. He may have things setup wrong, the game may have a bug with ATI drivers, who knows? Just because he may see some issue, it doesn't mean it has any relation to the subject at hand.

yea.. ati lowers the filtering quality, but it doesn't affect the IQ (and fp16 is as good as fp24) :roll:

"bri"linear is lower quality than trilinear, unless of course you're an ati fanboy, in which case brilinear is only lower quality on nvidia hardware; on ati it's equal quality, even tho the lower quality yields the same performance improvement on both cards. ya gotta love fanboy logic

then of course, there's always "user error" if the facts don't coincide with what you want to hear