Tomorrow a beautiful ATI feature is revealed...

[Rage187]

Originally posted by: Veridian3
It was a 6800 U, the full article shows that. Apologies for any confusion in the teaser.

Thx for the comments on how bias we are Rage187... funny how the last 3 NV cards reviewed by us received 2 gold hardware awards and 1 silver...

We saw your HL2/CS benchmarks, you lost all credibility there.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Insomniak
Not interested in DriverHeaven's FanATIcism. That site is useless aside from Driver Cleaner. This is like reading "news" about Nvidia drivers from nVnews or digit-life. God, things are getting ridiculous:
FanATIcs:
HardOCP
DriverHeaven
Beyond 3D
nVidiots:
nVnews
digit-life
About the only place to find an honest review or info any more is AT, Xbit, or Firingsquad.

ok this is simply ridiculous. if one owns an ATI card, then obviously one would do well to read a site like Rage3D. Same with NVnews. Same with XBN. Same with any other site covering material on a given product. It's called information and any person in their right mind KNOWS to take it with a grain of salt.

What is more ridiculous is the amount of crap being posted in this thread. Opinions are fantastic. I didn't know anything about this feature and was trying to gauge people's feelings and knowledge about it. What do I get? I get this post listing pro-ATI and pro-Nvidia sites!!!! What the heck does that have to do with anything!
We all have heard of Driverheavens' biases, but their results match up well with Hardocp, a site that basically dismissed the x800xt as fodder when they got the scoop on D3.

simply, simply ludicrous.

 

[Rage187]

Originally posted by: gururu

We all have heard of Driverheavens' biases, but their results match up well with Hardocp, a site that basically dismissed the x800xt as fodder when they got the scoop on D3.

simply, simply ludicrous.

Umm, DriverHeavens HL2 benchies didnt match up to anyone.

Coming right out of DH's mouth "Ati loves our site"; of course they do, you post BS.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Rage187

Umm, DriverHeavens HL2 benchies didnt match up to anyone.

Coming right out of DH's mouth "Ati loves our site"; of course they do, you post BS.

you're just pissed because you were wrong about A.I being uncovered today.
I thought you said you didn't "give a sh!t".

 

[Rage187]

I was calling out Veridian3.


Here's my thought on A.I:

Had they not told you about it, it would have been considered a cheat.

Now that they are telling you about it, its not a cheat?

And before anyone chimes in w/ "but there no loss of IQ", if it looks for *.exe's and implements optimizations, then its a cheat. No matter who does it including Nv or Matrox.

 

[gururu]

Originally posted by: Rage187
I was calling out Veridian3.


Here's my thought on A.I:

Had they not told you about it, it would have been considered a cheat.

Now that they are telling you about it, its not a cheat?

And before anyone chimes in w/ "but there no loss of IQ", if it looks for *.exe's and implements optimizations, then its a cheat. No matter who does it including Nv or Matrox.

thanks,

I agree with you. In fact, I am beginning to think that it is no more than a tactic to point out nvidia's optimizations. I was totally unaware that the latest 4.9s used humus-like optimizations in D3. I'd been using the humus tweak already so I didn't care too much aside from the fact that they didn't tell us that these optimizations were employed. I wondered why I saw no difference with the 4.9s.

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: Rage187
I was calling out Veridian3.


Here's my thought on A.I:

Had they not told you about it, it would have been considered a cheat.

Now that they are telling you about it, its not a cheat?

And before anyone chimes in w/ "but there no loss of IQ", if it looks for *.exe's and implements optimizations, then its a cheat. No matter who does it including Nv or Matrox.

Everyone assumes that if you're optimizing for an app you're going to automatically affect IQ and do some lower quality texture filtering. There are ways to optimize things that don't even affect textures or geometry. Drivers quite often have to do things that they would prefer not to do in order to fix bad application behavior.
[hypothetical example ahead]
For example if "Deer Hunter 16" did something really dumb in the "programming sense" and nVidia/ATI/Matrox/S3 has to add some extra code in order to handle this correctly in a driver path that every game on the planet goes thru. Now because of this Deer Hunter fix, HL2 and FarCry and some other games have lost 3+fps. Would it be cheating if nVidia/ATI/Matrox/S3 driver somehow targeted this Deer Hunter fix so that it only occurs for Deer Hunter, thereby getting back the 3+fps they lost in HL2 and other apps?

 

[Rage187]

I recommend Ati alot, and I mean alot, what I'm upset about is that Ati has started something that is going to get ugly. What we needed was a war of features, not a war of optimizations and cheats. We are the ones that will get screwed in the end.

How long before someone digs into the CAT code and finds the string looking for 3dmark??.exe ?

Do you think unreputable websites like DH will bench w/ them off or on?

If they do bench w/ them on, do you think they are going to tell you about it?

 

[Rage187]

Originally posted by: jasonja
For example if "Deer Hunter 16" did something really dumb in the "programming sense" and nVidia/ATI/Matrox/S3 has to add some extra code in order to handle this correctly in a driver path that every game on the planet goes thru. Now because of this Deer Hunter fix, HL2 and FarCry and some other games have lost 3+fps. Would it be cheating if nVidia/ATI/Matrox/S3 driver somehow targeted this Deer Hunter fix so that it only occurs for Deer Hunter, thereby getting back the 3+fps they lost in HL2 and other apps?

If all the video cards are having problems, then its the games fault.

If only one of the cards is having problems and requires special drivers to "optimize" performance just for that app, then its cheating.

and if one company releases a bunch of optimizations at the same time, that look specifically for .exe's, then its a bunch of cheats.

 

[Drayvn]

Why is everyone saying this is an optimization?

I thought the new A.I. let the application choose whats best, meaning in game u can choose what is best, so if u ask for everything, it will do everything instead of the Trilinear on the first pass and then the bilinear on the second pass, and stuff like that, now it does it all trilinear if u ask it too.

 

[ZobarStyl]

Yeah this is not an optimization, this is ATi giving us the alternative of not having their optimization.

In fact, I am beginning to think that it is no more than a tactic to point out nvidia's optimizations.

That's partly true but the idea is, we all knew from the start nV had a brilinear filtering option, but it was just that, an option. You could go into drivers and change the setting and boom get full trilinear (remember when ATi went to great lengths to point out to reviewers how to enable full tri on nV for a "fair comparision"?). That was why everyone got so mad; it wasn't because their is an optimization, it's because no one said anything and you couldn't disable it without a registry hack.

 

[Rage187]

They have added new optimizations into the 4.9-4.10 drivers.

so its not like they are coming clean about what was already there.


BTW:

Nv=generic optimizations.

Ati=App Specific optimizations.

 

[sbuckler]

It's used in some of the X700 reviews. Three levels, off, low, high. Looks like high in particular effects image quality noticably. Sounds like a good thing for ati owners as they have custom tweaked the drivers for certain games, so effectively it automatically picks the best optimisations to give you the best balance of performance vs quality in those games. As an nvidia owner I wouldn't mind if they did the same thing.
Biggest problem is if you want to do an apples to apples comparison with nvidia hardware you need to at least make sure both are running about the same optimisations, but the AI doesn't tell you what it is doing so how can you do it?

 

[jrphoenix]

Originally posted by: Schadenfroh
i like driver heavens driver cleaner (and commend omega), but i dont trust anything else that comes out of them.

As long as you don't use them for nforce chipset driver removal.... will cause Windows to quit loading!!!!

 

[Ackmed]

Such ignorance in here, its asounding. AI is not a cheat, thinking so only shows your bias.

 

[Rage187]

Ackmed, shouldn't you be over at DriverHeaven burning an effigy of Carmack?

 

[oldfart]

Originally posted by: ZobarStyl
Yeah this is not an optimization, this is ATi giving us the alternative of not having their optimization.

In fact, I am beginning to think that it is no more than a tactic to point out nvidia's optimizations.

That's partly true but the idea is, we all knew from the start nV had a brilinear filtering option, but it was just that, an option. You could go into drivers and change the setting and boom get full trilinear (remember when ATi went to great lengths to point out to reviewers how to enable full tri on nV for a "fair comparision"?). That was why everyone got so mad; it wasn't because their is an optimization, it's because no one said anything and you couldn't disable it without a registry hack.

When nVidia came out with Brilinear, you COULD NOT turn it off. The option was later put in the drivers after much demand from users on the .net.

ATi is doing the same thing. They are now adding the option to turn them on or off.

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: Rage187

Originally posted by: jasonja
For example if "Deer Hunter 16" did something really dumb in the "programming sense" and nVidia/ATI/Matrox/S3 has to add some extra code in order to handle this correctly in a driver path that every game on the planet goes thru. Now because of this Deer Hunter fix, HL2 and FarCry and some other games have lost 3+fps. Would it be cheating if nVidia/ATI/Matrox/S3 driver somehow targeted this Deer Hunter fix so that it only occurs for Deer Hunter, thereby getting back the 3+fps they lost in HL2 and other apps?

If all the video cards are having problems, then its the games fault.

If only one of the cards is having problems and requires special drivers to "optimize" performance just for that app, then its cheating.

and if one company releases a bunch of optimizations at the same time, that look specifically for .exe's, then its a bunch of cheats.

How does one company know if the others are affected? They don't exactly get together for a big pow-wow and talk about their issues. And sometimes it doesn't matter if it is the apps fault, if one company fixes it in the driver then the others must follow.

 

[jasonja]

Originally posted by: sbuckler
It's used in some of the X700 reviews. Three levels, off, low, high. Looks like high in particular effects image quality noticably. Sounds like a good thing for ati owners as they have custom tweaked the drivers for certain games, so effectively it automatically picks the best optimisations to give you the best balance of performance vs quality in those games. As an nvidia owner I wouldn't mind if they did the same thing.
Biggest problem is if you want to do an apples to apples comparison with nvidia hardware you need to at least make sure both are running about the same optimisations, but the AI doesn't tell you what it is doing so how can you do it?

nVidia doesn't even tell you if they are doing optimizations (of course we know they are) so how can you get apples to apples anyways?

BTW Rage187... it's BS that you claim nVidia isn't doing application specific optimizations. They target apps specifically, don't be fooled.

 

[ZobarStyl]

Originally posted by: oldfart
When nVidia came out with Brilinear, you COULD NOT turn it off. The option was later put in the drivers after much demand from users on the .net.

ATi is doing the same thing. They are now adding the option to turn them on or off.

Very true oldfart; I was talking about this round with the whole x800/6800 and ATi claiming the moral highground, etc. The thing that made it sad was nV had already pulled the same stunt, you would think that ATi would have realized what was going to happen and just announced the filter opts, instead of hoping to hide it. I won't say what either one did was better or worse than the other, but the least ATi could've learned from nV's mistake.

 

[Blastman]

Originally posted by: Rage187

BTW:

Nv=generic optimizations.

Ati=App Specific optimizations.

You?re joking right? It?s ATI that has been using general optimizations up to now -- read --- >opts that are good for all games. NV has been the one using application specific opts to the hilt. Back when the 3Dmark (unwinder-antidetect) NV cheats broke out, it was noted that the detonators had 73-element table of "recognized" applications and ~50 "recognized" shaders? beyond3d

Anands X700 preview likely has 2 (Doom3, Halo -- this one for sure) of the 5 games they benched with, with shader specific paths just for NV cards. And you?re complaining about ATI going application specific opts. ATI has no choice but to follow NV into these types of optimizations.

 

[Rage187]

Point out where Nv looks for specific *.exe's in its drivers since the release of the 6XXX series of cards..

 

[Ackmed]

Originally posted by: Rage187
Ackmed, shouldn't you be over at DriverHeaven burning an effigy of Carmack?

1. I dont visit Driverheaven, I dont even have it bookmarked.
2. I dont have anything against Carmack.
3. You proved your bias by calling A.I. a cheat.

Calling it a cheat is just ignorance and bias, plain and simple.

 

[Rage187]

yep, I hate ATI so much I have recommended them at least x3's as much as Nv in the last couple of months.

I'm so biased I recommend the x800 pro on a price/performace basis everytime.

Wow, I'm such a Nv fanboi.

 

[Keysplayr]

Now Now Ackmed. What did we tell you about your highbrow attitude. Repeat after me; "I am not better than anyone else" and "I will show some respect to my other forum members and demonstrate this by not using the word "ignorance" over and over again.".

That nose of yours is raised up again. Lower it.