Tomb Raider 1-3 Remaster

[BFG10K]

Looks good, coming to all platforms including DRM-free on GOG for PC.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Looks good, coming to all platforms including DRM-free on GOG for PC.

-Looks like a midway point between a proper remaster and a remake. Definitely updated models, lighting, and environment there but only so much that the games still appear to retain their original feeling.

Never was a big TR fan and I'll end up skipping this most likely, but good to see older titles getting cleaned up and released again for a new generation.

Only hope the price is befitting what is still a 20+ year old set of games.

 

[mikeymikec]

I liked the original series a lot, but I can't say I'm hopeful about Crystal Dynamics' involvement in this. It seems to me that what Core Design could do with Lara's acrobatics, Crystal Dynamics had to dumb down into interactive cut scenes, then they proceeded to dumb down the franchise into a shoot-em-up with almost no puzzles in.
Aspyr's attempt at remastering KOTOR1 for Android allegedly isn't that bad though the racing bit didn't go too well. I have no idea whether they're any good at PC dev.

Back to TR (1-5) - I've played them a lot over the years. Redoing the graphics simply isn't enough if you want to make a game that has a chance of appealing to today's audiences, IMO. The main way that they've aged IMO is that they were coming out of an era where development costs and system resources meant skimping on cut-scenes, dialogue etc. TR1 and 2 has the player exploring for many hours without a single cut scene or any dialogue, so if I was in charge of remaking those two, I would consider adding that kind of content to be the most important job.

TR3's main strength is that it addresses this to an extent by kind-of doing four mini-games in one, each with their own mini-plots, it's main flaw IMO is that it doesn't draw those plots back into one in a satisfying fashion. It feels to me like playing a bunch of demos, I think I've only completed it maybe 3 times in ~20 years.

TR4 is my favourite as it has sufficient cut-scenes and dialogue to keep the player interested in the plot while also delivering on lots of puzzles, exploration and a bit of action to fill out the corners.

The other reason I'm not overly hopeful is that this is a commercial attempt to remaster it, so the top priority will very likely be how little work can be put in to deliver maximum profit. The only upside of a commercial approach is that it ought to have the money to invest in writers and decent voice actors.

 

[Zenoth]

It's neat, gives a decent reason to revisit the early TR games for sure.

I, for one, will stay away. I tried them all back then in my PS1 years and I think it was enough. I liked TR3 the most out of the original TR trilogy. The modern ones were good, the 2013 reboot and Rise. I skipped Shadow, and that's about it. I think I've had my fill with TR games at this point. Not that I played every single one of them, but most of them; and only a few stand out to me. The franchise is a mixed bag for me, some titles are good, most are just 'ok', some are bad.

Still, objectively speaking I recognize that it's a good move to remaster those old games. To be honest there's hundreds of early 3D era games that should be remastered in a similar way. Most PS1-era games would benefit a lot from that.

 

[BFG10K]

I liked the original series a lot, but I can't say I'm hopeful about Crystal Dynamics' involvement in this. It seems to me that what Core Design could do with Lara's acrobatics, Crystal Dynamics had to dumb down into interactive cut scenes, then they proceeded to dumb down the franchise into a shoot-em-up with almost no puzzles in.

Did you even watch the trailer? It's literally the same games with better graphics and slight geometry adjustment to some level architecture, e.g. to allow light rays shining in from outside.

There's absolutely zero reason to expect they'll add extra cinematics, dialog or shooting. Heck, even the Anniversary remake didn't really do that.

The biggest improvement would be 60 FPS and better controls (including mouselook and auto-grab), because the old controls are horrendously bad. Also checkpoints would be good, so you don't have to constantly save-scum.

 

[mikeymikec]

Did you even watch the trailer? It's literally the same games with better graphics and slight geometry adjustment to some level architecture, e.g. to allow light rays shining in from outside.

There's absolutely zero reason to expect they'll add extra cinematics, dialog or shooting. Heck, even the Anniversary remake didn't really do that.

The biggest improvement would be 60 FPS and better controls (including mouselook and auto-grab), because the old controls are horrendously bad. Also checkpoints would be good, so you don't have to constantly save-scum.

I watched it a few days ago, I mentioned it in another thread. Watching it a second time, one reason to expect as close to a straight conversion as possible is that it's mentioned 47 seconds in that the player can switch between original graphics and updated graphics at any point in the game.

Anniversary is somewhat different to Tomb Raider 1. Watch even the first five minutes of a walkthrough of each game and the differences in gameplay and cut-scene content are obvious. Furthermore, they had a different actress voicing Lara in 1 and Anniversary, so "it did really do that".

If you change the controls, you'll very likely end up with a different game, as Legend through to the latest TR game have amply demonstrated. IMO the camera, controls and save game system in TR 1 - 5 are fine, I've never had any problems with them (except with keyboards that don't have much NKRO). Plenty of games go for a happy medium of auto-saves and manual saves, which I would be happy with as a pure checkpoint save system swaps out one problem for another.

 

[BFG10K]

Anniversary is somewhat different to Tomb Raider 1. Watch even the first five minutes of a walkthrough of each game and the differences in gameplay and cut-scene content are obvious. Furthermore, they had a different actress voicing Lara in 1 and Anniversary, so "it did really do that".

I know what Tomb Raider Anniversary is, I've finished it 5+ times. Like I said, there was no significant increase to cinematics, dialog, or shooting. In fact I think the original had a lot more combat in Atlantis.

And TRA is a remake, not a remaster. All evidence so far points to the remasters being basically 1:1 gameplay with updated visuals and QOL improvements.

If you change the controls, you'll very likely end up with a different game, as Legend through to the latest TR game have amply demonstrated.

That's a good thing, because stock controls are objectively horrendous. Every single blind playthrough I've seen has people having trouble with even the most basic navigation. I saw one person take 30 minutes to climb the first area of Tomb Raider 2.

I still have trouble with them to this day, and the game requires constant save scumming because just tapping the wrong key at the wrong time can lead to instadeath. I'd claim the entire classic games are basically a giant QTE from start to finish with regard to controls.

Leave the old controls as an option for the tiny minority who've spent years getting used to them, so now have rose colored nostalgia glasses and pretend there are "no issues".

 

[mikeymikec]

@BFG10K

I simply offered my opinion of what would make rewhatevering TR1-3 worthwhile; at the end of the day they can call their work on the games whatever they like, they're going to put a certain amount of money into it with the expectation of getting at least that amount out of it and I suggested where I felt that money should also be invested to make the game appeal more to a modern audience.

By all means have your own differing opinion on that same topic, but don't pretend that you're delivering a fact-based argument as a counter to my opinion when your argument boils down to "I don't think they'll change what you want changing because it's just going to be a remaster but they absolutely should change what I want changing even though it would fundamentally alter the games, and my experience of the games is somehow definitive". If the stock controls were universally considered so horrendous then Eidos+Core wouldn't have made 5 games with that control system, it would have died after 1 maybe 2 games at most.

There are plenty of games out there where timing with controls is important, especially older games. I am not a particularly prolific, patient or talented gamer; there are tonnes of games that I refuse to play any more like say the original Prince of Persia game because I don't have the various qualities needed to keep slugging away at a game that demands (IMO) pitch-perfect control timing. There are tonnes of games that have a particularly gruelling area of the game to get through, like in Half-Life 2 Episode 1 the main character and Alyx (I think it was her anyway) are waiting for a lift/elevator to come down, the lights go out and the player has to kill a multitude of zombies/aliens in the pitch-dark while avoiding friendly fire scenarios and explosive cannisters, and even though I've completed HL2EP1 multiple times I always dread in advance a few encounters like that in the HL2 series that might make me think twice about re-playing them but they are not overly-gruelling for me to take a pass on playing them ever again because of that.

I cannot think of a single moment in TR1, 2 or 4 that I have ever regarded as even a particular skill/luck check or notably tedious*. I haven't played them tonnes more than any other game, they're not tonnes longer than most games, each playthrough is a ~20 hour experience for me and I play 2/4 about once every 5 years apiece. I started playing TR games in my late teens and now I'm in my forties, and I'm sure that my reaction speed will have slowed with age. The only "classic" TR game that I dread playing again is TR5 (Chronicles) but that's because there are well-documented bugs particularly in the final chapter that if you do things like save at the wrong time it makes the game uncompleteable, which is a shame because I enjoyed the rest of it but I can't even bring myself to attempt it again these days.

By all means be the guy who gripes about the original TR games and I'll be the guy who gripes about all the Crystal Dynamics-made games; you enjoy yours and I enjoy mine, but it's a little pathetic for either of us to claim that the other only enjoys what they enjoy because they're going through some kind of denial etc.

Frankly if they manage to do new versions of TR1-3 that work exactly like the old ones do but with upgraded visuals, reasonably bug-free and any difficulties removed relating to old games being playable on modern platforms, it'll be an improvement IMO. Playing TR1 on PC requires even more work what with getting GLIDE up and running, downloading the high-res textures etc. Plus I somewhat doubt I'll have to worry about long-term CD integrity like I do with the original games

* - after I finished writing the rest of this post, I thought of one:

Those circular cutting blade things happen IIRC in 2-3 areas in TR4, they're not fun. I think I normally have Lara do a swan dive through each one with obviously a bit of good timing, but the roll that this guy does seems a lot easier. Not exactly an intuitive solution though!

 

[Oyeve]

I remember playing TR1 on 3DFX and was blown away.

 

[mikeymikec]

I remember playing TR1 on 3DFX and was blown away.

I think TR2 was my first experience with 3D hardware accelerated graphics, I remember having a similar reaction. I think the card involved was my first 'bought for purpose' graphics card, my Creative Labs Graphics Blaster Exxtreme 4MB PCI graphics card. In more complex levels later in the game, the textures would disappear if I tried to run it at the lofty resolution of 800x600 IIRC.

 

[aigomorla]

Its a more of a remaster, then a remake.

There already has been 2 generations of remakes.

Rise of the Tomb Raider - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

+

Shadow of the Tomb Raider - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

But i would wish they could at least bring that level of graphics in the remastered and not just a smoothed out polygon version.

I remember playing TR1 on 3DFX and was blown away.

Tomb Raider was my first entry into Voodoo, which was almost as amazing as when i first installed a sound blaster and played wing commander on.

 

[BFG10K]

There already has been 2 generations of remakes.

Those are reboots, totally different games. The only remake we've had is Anniversary.

 

[BFG10K]

Looks promising.

Tomb Raider I-III Remastered PS4 & PS5 features detailed, new key art revealed

Aspyr explains how the seminal classics were restored.

blog.playstation.com

Core Design / Tomb Raider I-II-III Remastered

Original home of Lara Croft and Tomb Raider. Discover more about the company and the games developed by Core Design.

core-design.com

"Action indicators" is a good option, a lot of switches and items blend into the background and are too hard to see, especially that notorious ticket booth.

They also made the right decision not to go woke SJW with the character model and instead keep it proportional to the original.

 

[mikeymikec]

They also made the right decision not to go woke SJW with the character model

Could you explain what you think this means please?

 

[BFG10K]

Could you explain what you think this means please?

You know exactly what it means. No need to pretend you need an "explanation".

 

[mikeymikec]

You know exactly what it means. No need to pretend you need an "explanation".

Ok, well, my impression of what "woke" means is "I preferred it when society had less equality and more bigotry, so I dislike people who prefer the opposite and call them 'woke'", and "SJW" means "social justice warrior", a term popularised during the gamergate era which AFAIK means more or less the same thing as "woke" does, but that doesn't help me interpret your comment. Hence I asked what you think it means and how it logically extends to one's appearance.

 

[BFG10K]

Ok, well, my impression of what "woke" means is "I preferred it when society had less equality and more bigotry, so I dislike people who prefer the opposite and call them 'woke'", and "SJW" means "social justice warrior", a term popularised during the gamergate era which AFAIK means more or less the same thing as "woke" does, but that doesn't help me interpret your comment. Hence I asked what you think it means and how it logically extends to one's appearance.

Cool story, bro. Be sure to send that to Disney, it might help them out of their current death spiral.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Well since he won't define it I guess we'll have to for him.

Guess BFG is saying he's glad the devs aren't recognizing the effects of systemic racism on shaping outcomes for non-white populations, in addition to the dev not attempting to correct these systemic issues through individual direct action.


Just when you think you know somebody...

 

[DeathReborn]

Could you explain what you think this means please?

Think of it like they took Lara Croft & turned her into a bland, boring, karen. In the more recent games she has lost her bust, widened at the waist & had some work on the face. Look at Aloy from Horizon or Mary Jane from Spiderman and you'll spot the same issues, changing the model to a less "sexy" version to promote "inclusion". Some like it, most don't.

You can't just look at a dictionary definition of Woke or SJW, both terms are far broader in scope nowadays but if anyone were to update the definitions they'd be cancelled by the twitter mob. To some going Woke or SJW just means make them ugly, lame etc; not respecting the source material, self inserting, & generally adding messaging that doesn't exist in the source. There's a reason Disney became known as Wokeny & stopped making money.

That said, I will be buying these, hopefully Physical so they sit next to my original trilogy PS games.

 

[mikeymikec]

Think of it like they took Lara Croft & turned her into a bland, boring, karen. In the more recent games she has lost her bust, widened at the waist & had some work on the face. Look at Aloy from Horizon or Mary Jane from Spiderman and you'll spot the same issues, changing the model to a less "sexy" version to promote "inclusion". Some like it, most don't.

You can't just look at a dictionary definition of Woke or SJW, both terms are far broader in scope nowadays but if anyone were to update the definitions they'd be cancelled by the twitter mob. To some going Woke or SJW just means make them ugly, lame etc; not respecting the source material, self inserting, & generally adding messaging that doesn't exist in the source. There's a reason Disney became known as Wokeny & stopped making money.

That said, I will be buying these, hopefully Physical so they sit next to my original trilogy PS games.

I wrote a response to your post based on the assumption that "the more recent games" meant TR2013 and later which kind of floored me really. I was on the verge of posting my response when I wondered whether Rise or Shadow had perhaps updated the models in a way that I hadn't noticed and apparently they did. I'm largely leaving my original response in place because I have no idea what you mean by "recent", you could easily be talking about TR2013 for example.

--

When I started playing Tomb Raider, I was a teen and the collection of polygons that can be loosely described as Lara's butt registered on my randy scale. Considering that the design of the character in TR2013+ is a vastly more detailed version, I'm pretty sure if I was a teen playing those later versions, I would have preferred the latter, despite the fact that "oh no! Her tits are smaller!". She's still a scantily-clad woman with the kind of figure that movie stars have.



If that's what your idea of a Karen looks like, then either a) the Karens where you live are the sort that the four-letter-abbreviation sites whose first letter stands for 'Mother' would gobble up in seconds flat or b) your standards are brutally high to say the least.

You say that the adoption of a slightly less absurd character model than a double-D cup size with a waist size that screams "eating disorder" running around the jungle in a latex top is the work of "the woke mob", but have you considered that AAA-class computer games these days cost many millions of dollars to make with the expectation of making vastly greater sums in return, and to do that, computer game makers are absolutely going to want to make the games appeal to as many people as possible? If a boardroom of execs is presented with the logic of "we should only make the game appeal to a bunch of neckbeards who complain online that Margot Robbie's tits aren't big enough and her elbows are pointy" or "maybe we should try to make this game appeal to as many people as possible, because more sales equals more profit", which way do you think their wallets and the company's shareholders will be pushing them towards?

Also, according to wiki, Tomb Raider 2014 has sold more than 14.5 million copies (breaking a record for the Tomb Raider franchise). Its predecessor sold 3.8 million.

Just in case you were talking about the changes in the most recent TR game (Shadow of the Tomb Raider), I found this which includes a list of comparison images between the most recent trilogy of games, plus a load of comments that seem almost universally complimentary, so perhaps your appeal to the silent majority is nothing more than your wishful thinking. The general consensus there at least to me seems to be an acknowledgement that there are some minor changes to the model, but that it gives her a more human look and her expressions are more realistic than they were.

https://www.reddit.com/r/TombRaider/comments/gm1ioy

As that comparison list isn't terribly helpful IMO, I've collected some screenshots myself.

Tomb Raider 2, 1997. Is Lara a part-time extreme corset fetishist and/or suffering from an eating disorder along with her full-time adventuring career? I don't know, but maybe starving oneself half to death while also expecting to be in peak physical condition to survive in the jungle seems ummm... unrealistic?

Shadow of the Tomb Raider:

Her face does seem a bit more filled out there. To be honest, if I had gone straight from TR2013 to Shadow, I wouldn't have noticed.

Pixel-perfect complexion, exactly what one would expect from an injured adventurer!

Noticeable boobs? Check.

Yup, definitely present.

Hips seem proportional to chest, and there's room in the abdomen for functional organs like what one would expect from a person in peak physical fitness?
I found your waist comment amusing because from a sexual objectification standpoint, many men like a noticeable waist/hip area for various reasons.

Comparing to TR2013:

https://www.reddit.com/media?url=https%3A%2F%2Fpreview.redd.it%2Flbwqrwun3s791.png%3Fwidth%3D3840%26format%3Dpng%26auto%3Dwebp%26s%3D34ea40e212b5b4a9eecd32c839603fcac5340b60

The body looks identical to me?

But comparisons aside, I'm really curious about something: In my mid-teens with hormones working overtime, gawking over a poorly-rendered 3D image of a woman in the era of dial-up Internet and sub-par access to porn is something that in hindsight I can understand. These days however I'm an adult. How old are you? Are you still gawking over 3D-rendered women? Aside from nineties-era Tomb Raider, I can't think of any other computer game character I've gawked at. If I want to look at porn (and I do so, regularly), I'll look at porn.

You can't just look at a dictionary definition of Woke or SJW

I agree. Would you therefore agree that neither term is sensible to use in general conversation?

As a side note, both of you are believers of this idea that Disney have stopped making money. It's pretty funny. Their net income for 2023 was $2.4bn according to wiki. I think both of you need to stop drinking the kool-aid that when companies don't act the way you want them to, then the Cult Of The Extreme Woke Left SJW Mob must have been behind it (I'm not sure what the mob are supposed to accomplish this, hurt Disney's feelings with mean comments until they lose the will to live?) and now those companies are going to wither like an old crone and turn to dust because that's what you think they deserve.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Yeah as games visuals become more realistic the *gasp* characters also have to look more realistic otherwise you get a major disconnect between the environment and the character design.

 

[BFG10K]

Guess BFG is saying he's glad the devs aren't recognizing the effects of systemic racism on shaping outcomes for non-white populations, in addition to the dev not attempting to correct these systemic issues through individual direct action.

None of what you wrote makes you a good person, no matter how badly you want to believe it does. Internet virtue signalling is nothing more than ruffling feathers and squawking.

 

[GodisanAtheist]

None of what you wrote makes you a good person, no matter how badly you want to believe it does. Internet virtue signalling is nothing more than ruffling feathers and squawking.

-Oh I'm a terrible person and I know it. Question is, do you?

 

[mikeymikec]

None of what you wrote makes you a good person, no matter how badly you want to believe it does. Internet virtue signalling is nothing more than ruffling feathers and squawking.

Translation: "I hope everyone is as awful as me in one way or another"

 

[BFG10K]

-Oh I'm a terrible person and I know it.

Congratulations.

Translation: "I hope everyone is as awful as me in one way or another"

Your screenshots don't adequately convey just how deeply you care about social justice in the Anandtech PC gaming forum. Maybe with a few more screenshots, you too can become a good person(tm).