"Tom Brady prefer his balls to feel a certain way" - balls underinflated

[purbeast0]

Why was Brady uncooperative? Why did he willingly and knowingly impede the investigation? If everything was by the rules, he should've had NO ISSUE fully cooperating.

it's the same reason you shouldn't always let a cop search your car even if you have nothing to hide - privacy.

 

[emperus]

Why was Brady uncooperative? Why did he willingly and knowingly impede the investigation? If everything was by the rules, he should've had NO ISSUE fully cooperating.

Lol. There is some awfully strong circular reasoning going on there.

Brady didn't give up his phone the same way I don't talk to police without an attorney and I don't let police search my person, my car or my house without a warrant. Those are rights that are protected for me and because I choose to uphold them has no bearing on my guilt or innocence.

In fact this seems to be an orchestrated attempt at setting new standards for the NFLPA players and the NFLPA and Brady wasn't going to abide. If Brady gave up his phone, it would be harder for any other NFLPA player to do the same. In fact even punishing him for not handing over his phone I think is crossing the line. It sets an example to every other player that this is what will happen if you decide not to do everything the NFL wants you to do even given up your Privacy.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

If what he said is true (that he held onto it until they told him they didn't need it), then your base assumption for the question (that he willingly and knowingly impeded the investigation) is wrong. I hat football and only have a passing interest in this thread but it seems that you have glossed right over something that I didn't. You are too quick to dismiss it. Biased?

That's where you're wrong - it is not my assumption that Brady was uncooperative. That is what the investigation said.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

Lol. There is some awfully strong circular reasoning going on there.

Brady didn't give up his phone the same way I don't talk to police without an attorney and I don't let police search my person, my car or my house without a warrant. Those are rights that are protected for me and because I choose to uphold them has no bearing on my guilt or innocence.

In fact this seems to be an orchestrated attempt at setting new standards for the NFLPA players and the NFLPA and Brady wasn't going to abide. If Brady gave up his phone, it would be harder for any other NFLPA player to do the same. In fact even punishing him for not handing over his phone I think is crossing the line. It sets an example to every other player that this is what will happen if you decide not to do everything the NFL wants you to do even given up your Privacy.

Yeah, and destroying that phone on the day of the interview just further showed his innocence. Gotcha!

I don't give a shit what happens one way or another, but I have to admit, if Goodell wins the lawsuit, I can't wait to hear all the excuses then.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

it's the same reason you shouldn't always let a cop search your car even if you have nothing to hide - privacy.

Yeah, I know he didn't want Goodell seeing pics of him wearing Gisele's underwear, but seriously...

 

[purbeast0]

Yeah, I know he didn't want Goodell seeing pics of him wearing Gisele's underwear, but seriously...

but seriously what?

you don't need anymore reason than him wanting his privacy, just like when you don't want a cop to search your car for no reason even though you have nothing to hide.

rights exist for a reason.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

but seriously what?

you don't need anymore reason than him wanting his privacy, just like when you don't want a cop to search your car for no reason even though you have nothing to hide.

rights exist for a reason.

Yes, and as someone said before, he could've just refused to turn it over. Most people would be fine with that. But THEN he had to go that extra step and destroy it and apparently on the day of the interview with Wells. Very interesting indeed.

 

[purbeast0]

Yes, and as someone said before, he could've just refused to turn it over. Most people would be fine with that. But THEN he had to go that extra step and destroy it and apparently on the day of the interview with Wells. Very interesting indeed.

yeah that is odd, but considering they already had all the info they needed off the phone, and could probably get the records from cell phone companies, imo it's really not as big a deal as it's being made out to be. also, destroying the phone has nothing to do with what i quoted you on, you're now just bringing that up (into this quoted discussion).

most people can do what they please with their stuff, including tom brady.

i agree that the headline was written as click bait and to get everyone talking.

"tom brady destroys phone" will get a lot more clicks/views than "tom brady gets a new cell phone and gets rid of the old one".

 

[BUTCH1]

Yeah, I know he didn't want Goodell seeing pics of him wearing Gisele's underwear, but seriously...

What a colossal mess we have here. The first game of the '15 season was supposed to feature an NFL sponsored tribute to the SB champs, now the SB MVP won't be playing, ugh. I still think there was tampering and Brady was involved but frankly it was miss-handled by both sides right from the start. It was apparent the league did not know that balls will in fact lose some PSI
going from warm locker rooms to a cold playing field and even worse they use gauges that are not calibrated and look like $12.95 Amazon specials. IMHO if Brady had come out from the start and just said, "i like the balls as low as possible, if it caused any confusion or breaking of league rules I apologize". From there the league slaps Kraft with a $500K fine and call it a day while they pull Kraft behind closed doors and warn him this was your slap on the wrist, anything else and we slam you big-time. I guess we'll all have to see how it plays out in court now, I did think Brady deserved a hefty fine but not a 4- gamer over 1/2lb of PSI. All this talk of "integrity" but where was the NFL's "integrity" when they "leaked" that every Patriot ball was 2 PSI low and failed to correct it.

 

[emperus]

Yeah, and destroying that phone on the day of the interview just further showed his innocence. Gotcha!

I don't give a shit what happens one way or another, but I have to admit, if Goodell wins the lawsuit, I can't wait to hear all the excuses then.

I think ur letting ur fandom get the best of your faculties. You clearly are deeply invested in this.

You should start with the science of this. And then see if there is a there there. I actually can't wait till next season when people actually test balls during the middle of cold weather games and realize that they are all below the 12.5 PSI range. Going to be some interesting analysis.

/Aside
I blame our educational system for creating such stupid Americans. We need to get back to our focus on Math and Science.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

I think ur letting ur fandom get the best of your faculties. You clearly are deeply invested in this.

Nah, I'm here to laugh at Pats fans. I've admitted it. I really don't care what happens. The inflation level of the balls had no effect on the game.

You should start with the science of this. And then see if there is a there there. I actually can't wait till next season when people actually test balls during the middle of cold weather games and realize that they are all below the 12.5 PSI range. Going to be some interesting analysis.

You keep focusing on the science but are missing the big point. The science isn't at issue. Brady being uncooperative is why he was slapped hard. We've said this numerous times and for whatever reason, you keep deflecting.

/Aside
I blame our educational system for creating such stupid Americans. We need to get back to our focus on Math and Science.

Well, if this was intended as an insult to me, you missed the mark big time.

The Pats ball guys should've taken this into account when they put air in the balls. Oops, they didn't! I guess THEY'RE the stupid Americans you're referring to above.

 

[emperus]

You keep focusing on the science but are missing the big point. The science isn't at issue. Brady being uncooperative is why he was slapped hard. We've said this numerous times and for whatever reason, you keep deflecting.

If the balls deflated naturally, what are we still talking about then? So, he got 4 games because he didn't provide his cell phone?

Well, if this was intended as an insult to me, you missed the mark big time.

The Pats ball guys should've taken this into account when they put air in the balls. Oops, they didn't! I guess THEY'RE the stupid Americans you're referring to above.

You clearly still don't understand how it works... Meh..

But, it was a comment as to why this topic is so hard for the general public (you included) to get a handle of.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

But, it was a comment as to why this topic is so hard for the general public (you included) to get a handle of.

No, I understand it perfectly. Tell me, what is it you do for a living besides being a condescending fanboy?

Again, since you evidently have trouble understanding English, I will say it ONE MORE TIME. Brady is the issue here. He didn't cooperate with the investigation. THAT is why he got nailed. Quit deflecting to "science" when no one has questioned the science at all.

 

[SunnyD]

Lol. There is some awfully strong circular reasoning going on there.

Brady didn't give up his phone the same way I don't talk to police without an attorney and I don't let police search my person, my car or my house without a warrant. Those are rights that are protected for me and because I choose to uphold them has no bearing on my guilt or innocence.

In fact this seems to be an orchestrated attempt at setting new standards for the NFLPA players and the NFLPA and Brady wasn't going to abide. If Brady gave up his phone, it would be harder for any other NFLPA player to do the same. In fact even punishing him for not handing over his phone I think is crossing the line. It sets an example to every other player that this is what will happen if you decide not to do everything the NFL wants you to do even given up your Privacy.

There's a distinct difference between criminal proceedings and what happens in the NFL though.

The NFL has something called conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game/league that all of its employees are held accountable to. Unfortunately that term is also very vague and nebulous. In the case of Tom Brady, he was named to be involved in this "scandal" by other parties involved, however his conduct during the investigation did nothing to exonerate him from being involved. Sure, it wasn't proven that he was actually involved either, but there was enough circumstantial evidence against him in the court of NFL arbitration that lets him fall under the category of conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game/league.

Simply, by not presenting the proper evidence to support his defense in this case, Brady just made the presumption of guilt that much greater. Remember, this isn't a court of law - this is collectively bargained arbitration. The NFLPA agreed to it and the NFL holds the cards here. It doesn't work the same as your traditional legal context anymore.

 

[smackababy]

There's a distinct difference between criminal proceedings and what happens in the NFL though.

The NFL has something called conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game/league that all of its employees are held accountable to. Unfortunately that term is also very vague and nebulous. In the case of Tom Brady, he was named to be involved in this "scandal" by other parties involved, however his conduct during the investigation did nothing to exonerate him from being involved. Sure, it wasn't proven that he was actually involved either, but there was enough circumstantial evidence against him in the court of NFL arbitration that lets him fall under the category of conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game/league.

Simply, by not presenting the proper evidence to support his defense in this case, Brady just made the presumption of guilt that much greater. Remember, this isn't a court of law - this is collectively bargained arbitration. The NFLPA agreed to it and the NFL holds the cards here. It doesn't work the same as your traditional legal context anymore.

This best part about these rules is the don't seem to cover Goodell himself. His actions and handling of prior incidents (or not handling, such as the Ray Rice case) have caused a huge detriment to the league while he is the commissioner. Yet, nobody is suspending or firing him.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

This best part about these rules is the don't seem to cover Goodell himself. His actions and handling of prior incidents (or not handling, such as the Ray Rice case) have caused a huge detriment to the league while he is the commissioner. Yet, nobody is suspending or firing him.

He sucks and should have been fired for his handling of the Ray Rice case. AFAIK, the owners are the only ones who can actually remove Goodell and none seem interested in doing that. But as SunnyD said, while it may be vague, the NFLPA agreed to the terms.

 

[SunnyD]

This best part about these rules is the don't seem to cover Goodell himself. His actions and handling of prior incidents (or not handling, such as the Ray Rice case) have caused a huge detriment to the league while he is the commissioner. Yet, nobody is suspending or firing him.

Who watches the watchers?

I gotta say though, it does seem like the NFL has taken a lot of lessons from the old WWF/WWE, doesn't it?

 

[purbeast0]

nfl - guilty until proven innocent

 

[smackababy]

Who watches the watchers?

I gotta say though, it does seem like the NFL has taken a lot of lessons from the old WWF/WWE, doesn't it?

Surprisingly, the WWE of old was actually not a terrible company, at least, up until the end of the Attitude Era. And, unlike the NFL, they actually took care of their players.

The owners like Goodell because he is a fucking idiot and takes the heat off anything they might do. Jerry Jones sends dick pics to an employee and just responds with "Look! Goodell is doing something with Ray Rice again!".

 

[Phoenix86]

If what he said is true (that he held onto it until they told him they didn't need it), then your base assumption for the question (that he willingly and knowingly impeded the investigation) is wrong. I hat football and only have a passing interest in this thread but it seems that you have glossed right over something that I didn't. You are too quick to dismiss it. Biased?

So I read something similar over lunch, it seems like there was a conversation about the phone before it was destroyed. The way I read the quote was Brady's lawyers said they wouldn't be providing it, then it was destroyed. That's not the same as the NFL saying they don't want it, but it would have given them the opportunity to say they did and not to destroy it.

If that's true I'm squarely back on Brady's side. The whole destruction of evidence goes out the window the second it was determined it wasn't needed. However, I seriously doubt the NFL passed at the chance/said they didn't want it. That almost exceeds logic.

It's not like the NFL hasn't mismanaged this whole thing. All of it. That's the real circus going on here.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

So I read something similar over lunch, it seems like there was a conversation about the phone before it was destroyed. The way I read the quote was Brady's lawyers said they wouldn't be providing it, then it was destroyed. That's not the same as the NFL saying they don't want it, but it would have given them the opportunity to say they did and not to destroy it.

If that's true I'm squarely back on Brady's side. The whole destruction of evidence goes out the window the second it was determined it wasn't needed. However, I seriously doubt the NFL passed at the chance/said they didn't want it. That almost exceeds logic.

It's not like the NFL hasn't mismanaged this whole thing. All of it. That's the real circus going on here.

Agree 100% if this is what happened.

And yeah, I think the NFL should've just slapped the Patriots, issued a warning to all teams in the league, and changed their ball handling policies rather than create this circus.

 

[smackababy]

So I read something similar over lunch, it seems like there was a conversation about the phone before it was destroyed. The way I read the quote was Brady's lawyers said they wouldn't be providing it, then it was destroyed. That's not the same as the NFL saying they don't want it, but it would have given them the opportunity to say they did and not to destroy it.

If that's true I'm squarely back on Brady's side. The whole destruction of evidence goes out the window the second it was determined it wasn't needed. However, I seriously doubt the NFL passed at the chance/said they didn't want it. That almost exceeds logic.

It's not like the NFL hasn't mismanaged this whole thing. All of it. That's the real circus going on here.

Well, it seems Brady made it clear he wasn't handing over his phone. He gave them the transcripts of texts and information and that was all they were getting. If the NFL had a problem with that, too bad. It seems union employees were not subject to hand over evidence if they chose not to; the NFL can't compel them as they can other employees.

If Brady or his lawyer told the NFL you will not be getting the phone, here is the evidence, do you need anything else and they said 'no' or did not respond, Brady is in the clear in my eyes. If they specifically stated 'we might need more information' and he destroyed the phone, well, he should be punished; 4 games is a bit much for that IMO.

 

[emperus]

There's a distinct difference between criminal proceedings and what happens in the NFL though.

The NFL has something called conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game/league that all of its employees are held accountable to. Unfortunately that term is also very vague and nebulous. In the case of Tom Brady, he was named to be involved in this "scandal" by other parties involved, however his conduct during the investigation did nothing to exonerate him from being involved. Sure, it wasn't proven that he was actually involved either, but there was enough circumstantial evidence against him in the court of NFL arbitration that lets him fall under the category of conduct detrimental to the integrity of the game/league.

Simply, by not presenting the proper evidence to support his defense in this case, Brady just made the presumption of guilt that much greater. Remember, this isn't a court of law - this is collectively bargained arbitration. The NFLPA agreed to it and the NFL holds the cards here. It doesn't work the same as your traditional legal context anymore.

I think the standard you are using is wrong. Brady doesn't have to prove anything even in an arbitration hearing, but the NFL had to prove the facts against Brady by the preponderance of evidence. I don't see any evidence that met that burden.

 

[SP33Demon]

Yawn...

Yes, by the NFL. Not Bleacherreport or the Inquirer. Rumors of accusations are different than being accused by the NFL.

 

[SP33Demon]

I think the standard you are using is wrong. Brady doesn't have to prove anything even in an arbitration hearing, but the NFL had to prove the facts against Brady by the preponderance of evidence. I don't see any evidence that met that burden.

The NFL already proved their case with the Wells Report and a shitload of testimony. Anyone following this case would know that. Do you live in a cave?

For a refresher, read this:
http://espn.go.com/espn/otl/story/_...-short-court-challenge-roger-goodell-decision
Q: What evidence led Goodell to confirm the four-game suspension?

A: Goodell relied on evidence the Wells investigation, the 300 exhibits offered in the day-long hearing, and 450 pages of testimony. He also relied heavily on information that he did not learn during the hearing. Kessler and the NFLPA said there was no need for testimony from John Jastremski and James McNally, the Patriots employees who were involved in the machinations that led to the deflated game balls. The NFL attorneys argued, according to the Goodell opinion, that Goodell was entitled to make an "adverse inference" from Brady's failure to present key witnesses. Goodell went beyond the adverse inference and made a finding that both men lacked credibility in the statements they made to Wells. The Brady legal team also admitted that McNally had "more than enough time" during his famous 100-second visit into a locked bathroom to do what was necessary to deflate the balls.