I'd have Foxx, Gehrig, Killbrew, Murray, McCovey, and even guys like Palmeiro over Helton. I mean he is good. But he isn't
at the level I hold those guys to.
at the level I hold those guys to.
All these people who say he's not good or the one who said "he's not worthy to carry Gehrig's jock strap," where the hell are you? I don't see you making millions and playing at the highest possible level. Barkley said it best in his book when he said "You know someone's a star when people start expecting a lot out a player and say 'Oh he's supposed to do that.'"
Helton is a great baseball player, regardless (of*) if he's the best first baseman ever.
Helton is a great baseball player, regardless (of*) if he's the best first baseman ever.
Well it seems as if some of the people are forgetting that he's a professional, and also one of the better ones out there. Comparing him to Lou Gehrig is unfair because in his days, Gehrig's peers weren't under suspiscion of steroids or corked bats or whatever else. That's not to say that Gehrig didn't have his own things blocking him, but I just can't see a good, clean (and fair) comparison of these two players.
We're in a different era of baseball now than back then, and some might say it's worse.
We're in a different era of baseball now than back then, and some might say it's worse.
It's not just "what about Lou Gehrig?"
The answer is Lou Gehrig...he was a more feared hitter than Babe Ruth. Reporters of the day said Ruth had the better numbers because he saw better pitches because he hit in front of Lou Gehrig.
In his years look at Lou's Grand Slam record and batting average with men on base.
Honestly, Gehrig is easily one of ten best hitters of all time. And really he did all his damage in about 14 disease free seasons (he played 16-17 seasons but his first year he didn't play much as a rookie and his last year and a half he was fighting the disease.
I find it funny that fielding hasn't been mentioned as much yet. Does anyone have numbers for Gehrig's fielding performances?
Originally posted by: SP33Demon
I'm waiting for RabidMongoose to bust out the OPS+ garbage stat of Gehrig vs Helton...
Sure. Gehrig has the third highest (well tied for it) OPS+ of all time. The end. Todd Helton isn't even in the top 30.
OPS+ is park adjusted (along with era (league)). So even if everyonce is using steroids and if the ball is juiced or whatever, that would be factored into the league average.
There are guys that are still active that have more claim to all-time first baseman than Todd Helton.
Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Jim Thome, Jason Giambi, and Carlos Delgado all have been around longer and have better career stats than Todd Helton, and in their primes were at least as productive as Helton's best seasons to date. Rafael Palmeiro also has had a pretty good career, he's going to hang on long enough to post the magic 3000 hits and 500 HR combination.
Helton's only been around for 7 yrs. Last year he had a tremendous season and posted the highest single season OPS+ of his career, 168. Lou Gehrig's career OPS+ is 175. Helton's career OPS+ is 144, he would have to hit like Barry Bonds on HGH/THG for the next several seasons to even approach Gehrig's career run-generating ability. The difference in offense is so immense that defense doesn't even need to be considered.
Helton is a solid All Star caliber 1st baseman. He needs to keep producing at a high level for at least a decade, 1B is a competitive place in the pantheon of greats. To be among the best at that position, you have to supply an amazing amount of firepower for a very long time.
Frank Thomas, Jeff Bagwell, Jim Thome, Jason Giambi, and Carlos Delgado all have been around longer and have better career stats than Todd Helton, and in their primes were at least as productive as Helton's best seasons to date. Rafael Palmeiro also has had a pretty good career, he's going to hang on long enough to post the magic 3000 hits and 500 HR combination.
Helton's only been around for 7 yrs. Last year he had a tremendous season and posted the highest single season OPS+ of his career, 168. Lou Gehrig's career OPS+ is 175. Helton's career OPS+ is 144, he would have to hit like Barry Bonds on HGH/THG for the next several seasons to even approach Gehrig's career run-generating ability. The difference in offense is so immense that defense doesn't even need to be considered.
Helton is a solid All Star caliber 1st baseman. He needs to keep producing at a high level for at least a decade, 1B is a competitive place in the pantheon of greats. To be among the best at that position, you have to supply an amazing amount of firepower for a very long time.
Another thing to think about Helton is the possibility of the Coors 'hangover effect' when looking at his road numbers.
Gehrig didn't play in the dead ball era. A common mistake seems to be that today's game is the only time that baseball has ever been in a high run scoring environment...When Gehrig played, more runs were being scored than today's game.
GagHalfrunt
Lifer
- Apr 19, 2001
- 25,284
- 1,998
- 126
Not quite. When Babe Ruth retired with 714 career home runs, one player, ONE, in the history of baseball had as many as 300. That one player was Gehrig. They scored a lot of runs on singles and doubles off tired starters late in the game. At the time home runs and high slugging percentages were still things to be respected.
Helton is a good player, I'd always take him on my fantasy team. And his stats means he must be considered one of the best players in baseball.
In the last three seasons he has hit .385 at Coors and .297 on the road.
Todd is good. Best ever? At only age 30? Hardly.
In the last three seasons he has hit .385 at Coors and .297 on the road.
Todd is good. Best ever? At only age 30? Hardly.
That's true the game was played differently. However, he didn't play in the dead ball era. The dead ball era is generally referred to the years around 1901-1919, where the run/game per team was usually around 3.65. When Gehrig played, the run/game shot up dramatically up to over 5.0 runs/game per team, which is significantly more than today's game.
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