Today is Afghan election day.

[Grabo]

Interesting read.
"Democracy is not a coat of paint. A feudal society in which women are still largely treated as property and literacy hovers below 10 percent in rural areas does not magically shortcut 400 years of political development and morph into a democracy in a decade" - this is likely a good point.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Grabo
Interesting read.
"Democracy is not a coat of paint. A feudal society in which women are still largely treated as property and literacy hovers below 10 percent in rural areas does not magically shortcut 400 years of political development and morph into a democracy in a decade" - this is likely a good point.

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I too read the bamarcre link, found some things I could agree with and many things I disagree with.

But the notion that people, with people being people world wide, can't make vast leaps forward is totally absurd. Or better put, that the Afghan people must first go through a some 400 year process to join the modern world is wrong wrong and wrong. Countries all over the world prove that notion wrong.

The problem is the way modernity and Western values are being presented in Afghanistan would gag a maggot, and because of the corruption Nato brought, instead the Afghan people tend to cling to the traditional. And its partly also the sales message of the Taliban regarding a glorious Afghan past that never was, when no Western rascals sullied their paradise on earth.

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

The problem is the way modernity and Western values are being presented in Afghanistan would gag a maggot, and because of the corruption Nato brought, instead the Afghan people tend to cling to the traditional.

Corruption is the tradition in Afghanistan. NATO didn't bring corruption, NATO is fighting against a culture of acceptable corruption. Is there unacceptable corruption? Absolutely, mostly on the higher level of government, but it is present everywhere. The country is forced to be "corrupt" in terms of western ideals, and it isn't something that NATO can change overnight.

And its partly also the sales message of the Taliban regarding a glorious Afghan past that never was, when no Western rascals sullied their paradise on earth.

The Taliban only has power through fear. People hate the Taliban. Absolutely hate it. Along with all the other groups of similar flavor fighting or power. The Afghans want peace and stability, and they know NATO is trying to bring that. They want the government to work, but most rural areas have no choice but to fall in under the Taliban simply out of fear.

 

[Grabo]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

But the notion that people, with people being people world wide, can't make vast leaps forward is totally absurd. Or better put, that the Afghan people must first go through a some 400 year process to join the modern world is wrong wrong and wrong. Countries all over the world prove that notion wrong.

Maybe not four hundred years, but there's certainly a whole lot to be overcome before there is any kind of working democracy there. And maybe a centralized government will never work.

Originally posted by: bbdub333
The Taliban only has power through fear. People hate the Taliban. Absolutely hate it. Along with all the other groups of similar flavor fighting or power. The Afghans want peace and stability, and they know NATO is trying to bring that. They want the government to work, but most rural areas have no choice but to fall in under the Taliban simply out of fear.

I don't know- there's all sorts of peoples within the borders of Afghanistan, and some claim most non-Taliban like that the Taliban are trying to oust the outsiders, while they simultaneously dislike the Taliban extremist views. If every non-Taliban in Afghanistan hated the Taliban, maybe the situation today would be different. Then again, how many Burmese like the Burma junta..?

It seems a bit hopeless, agreed, but we absolutely cannot let the Taliban rule there again. (I say 'we', but Swedish troops are very few and have only recently been given more leeway in firefireght situations, and I'm certainly no part of those)

 

[bbdub333]

Originally posted by: Grabo


I don't know- there's all sorts of peoples within the borders of Afghanistan, and some claim most non-Taliban like that the Taliban are trying to oust the outsiders, while they simultaneously dislike the Taliban extremist views. If every non-Taliban in Afghanistan hated the Taliban, maybe the situation today would be different. Then again, how many Burmese like the Burma junta..?

It seems a bit hopeless, agreed, but we absolutely cannot let the Taliban rule there again. (I say 'we', but Swedish troops are very few and have only recently been given more leeway in firefireght situations, and I'm certainly no part of those)

The enemy of my enemy. There are many, many groups fighting for power. The Taliban are one of the more powerful groups. Everyone wants to fight NATO forces because they are the greatest threat to power to them. If NATO were to leave, they would regress right back to fighting themselves, killing their population, and repressing human rights. It's a historical fact.

 

[Grabo]

Originally posted by: bbdub333

The enemy of my enemy. There are many, many groups fighting for power. The Taliban are one of the more powerful groups. Everyone wants to fight NATO forces because they are the greatest threat to power to them. If NATO were to leave, they would regress right back to fighting themselves, killing their population, and repressing human rights. It's a historical fact.

I don't doubt this.

 

[Lemon law]

For what its worth, there are substantial complaints about election fraud. And now groups supervising the election say fraud may be large enough to change the outcome.
And if the Afghan people don't regard the election as legitimate, its just more big problems.