Talking about god can hardly be considered talking about the "Physical". It's a belief you're talking about, something supernatural.
The way I see it, there can be no proof that God doesn't exist, but then again there can be no proof that he does. BTW... I think that the bible is a good book, and that we can learn alot from it, but that it is in no way proof that God exists.
Agnostic
Agnostic
zonker~
I've experienced all the Gifts of the Spirit. I was kind of born with them, I think.
(The majority of this post has been deleted as I later deemed it TMI! You'll just have to wait for it to come out on the big screen!)
BTW, I am not too worried about dying. I make it a priority to show my love and be real every day. I'll be sad to die, but not afraid. I don't care about heaven or hell... don't really believe in 'em. I think the state of mind you are in at the time of death has a lot more to do what your consciousness will experience afterwards. I'm more concerned with giving and receiving love right here, right now. If I'm wrong, and I was supposed to figure out which sect/denomination/religion is 'right', I still won't care. For the most part, my conscious is clear.
Faith is so personal. Mine is strong. Onward and upward...
Peace.
I've experienced all the Gifts of the Spirit. I was kind of born with them, I think.
(The majority of this post has been deleted as I later deemed it TMI! You'll just have to wait for it to come out on the big screen!)
BTW, I am not too worried about dying. I make it a priority to show my love and be real every day. I'll be sad to die, but not afraid. I don't care about heaven or hell... don't really believe in 'em. I think the state of mind you are in at the time of death has a lot more to do what your consciousness will experience afterwards. I'm more concerned with giving and receiving love right here, right now. If I'm wrong, and I was supposed to figure out which sect/denomination/religion is 'right', I still won't care. For the most part, my conscious is clear.
Faith is so personal. Mine is strong. Onward and upward...
Peace.
Isla... i don't think what sect/denomination/religion you belong to matters as long as find a place where YOU find the spirit. Everyone sees God a little differently, I'm certain. Some don't even recognize Him 
You're an interesting lady...
You're an interesting lady...
Thanks, Zonker...
Hope you could keep up with my editing... it's 2:30AM over here and I wanted to make sure I made sense... glad you understand.
Blessings~
Hope you could keep up with my editing... it's 2:30AM over here and I wanted to make sure I made sense... glad you understand.
Blessings~
Eli,
I knew you would say that. But thats why the arguement included innocents. A baby born to become infected with a horrible desease.. .wriths in pain for several weeks and then dies has done NOTHING wrong.
I knew you would say that. But thats why the arguement included innocents. A baby born to become infected with a horrible desease.. .wriths in pain for several weeks and then dies has done NOTHING wrong.
Well, obviously it has, or it's life wouldn't be cut so short.
I have seen all of my passed lives; they were shown to me in one of my many meditations. I am a very old soul. I have been coming to this planet for eons. I have been male and female, red man, dark man, and white man. I have even been races that I cannot even explain in words, other than beautiful. I have had many occupations, from simple farmer to soldier for the Roman Empire, to petty thief, just to name a couple. I have done many bad deeds; I am paying for them dearly in this lifetime, in more ways than one. I am okay with that, because If I pass this lifetime, and cleanse myself of all sins, passed and present, It is over, I will be done. I will have passed this school we call Earth, and my soul will be free to be in it's natural form, not this physical illusion. It has taken me all this time to reach this point. I am going to try my best not to mess my chance up.
Everything you have ever done is recorded in your File, as I like to call it. Nothing escapes; from the little "white" lie, to the thief who thinks nobody caught him, to the selfish thought you had the other day.
I am almost 20 years old, and have experienced more than most people ever will in their lifetime. Not because I am better, but because of my awareness.
I am by no means perfect, but I am working dilligently on it.
I have seen all of my passed lives; they were shown to me in one of my many meditations. I am a very old soul. I have been coming to this planet for eons. I have been male and female, red man, dark man, and white man. I have even been races that I cannot even explain in words, other than beautiful. I have had many occupations, from simple farmer to soldier for the Roman Empire, to petty thief, just to name a couple. I have done many bad deeds; I am paying for them dearly in this lifetime, in more ways than one. I am okay with that, because If I pass this lifetime, and cleanse myself of all sins, passed and present, It is over, I will be done. I will have passed this school we call Earth, and my soul will be free to be in it's natural form, not this physical illusion. It has taken me all this time to reach this point. I am going to try my best not to mess my chance up.
Everything you have ever done is recorded in your File, as I like to call it. Nothing escapes; from the little "white" lie, to the thief who thinks nobody caught him, to the selfish thought you had the other day.
I am almost 20 years old, and have experienced more than most people ever will in their lifetime. Not because I am better, but because of my awareness.
I am by no means perfect, but I am working dilligently on it.
ok, so you support your arguement by assuming that there are past lives. This still doesn't work since a good god wouldn't let your die and reincarnate.. then punish you. Thats just cruel and serves no purpose. If we consider this treatment as punishment then you should know through dog or err child raising that punishment should soon or directly after the incident has taken place. There must be a link between punishment and the action. If you wait an hour after the dog soils the rug to yell at it, it won't understand or make the connection. Of course this comparison is less extreme then torturing a baby because it had a bad previous life.
If you think of god as a parent then that would be no way to treat your children.
remember, god is all good, all powerful, and omnipotent..
If you think of god as a parent then that would be no way to treat your children.
remember, god is all good, all powerful, and omnipotent..
I do not expect you to instantly understand. You have to find the understanding within yourself.
You're looking at it too analitically. Too physically. It is not the same as having a child do something wrong, and then punishing it later(in the theory that it wont understand, because the punishment has come later). That's what I'm saying. You're supposed to learn that you shouldn't do the "bad" things in the first place.
You can't just say "It can't work like that" because you don't believe it. Believe it, then maybe you will see that it does work like that.
A good god wouldn't let you die, reincarnate, and punish you? Why not? Do you understand the concept of reincarnation? Nothing changes but your physical form, you're still the same spirit. Time has no meaning in spirit. It serves no purpose? Why not? He is not our parent. We are expected to obey the laws of the universe. We know them, whether conciously or unconciously. You're supposed to make the connection through higher thinking. Like I said, If you stub your toe, and you have an intuition as to why that happened, That's most likely why it happened.
It has been proven that when you think a thought, every atom in your body matches the vibration of that thought. If you constantly think about God, your vibration will constantly rise. If you constantly think about worldly things, your vibration will solidify.
I said the affirmation "God and I am one" for 3 days straight, as an expirment to this, about a year ago. When I stopped, the hum inside my head was incredible. My body felt light as a feather. It was absolutely amazing. You can't even imagine. Try it some day. Even just saying it once makes it so. The words "I Am" are very powerful. If you say I am <anything>, It becomes so.
I've gotta get some sleep, I'll be around tomorrow though.
You're looking at it too analitically. Too physically. It is not the same as having a child do something wrong, and then punishing it later(in the theory that it wont understand, because the punishment has come later). That's what I'm saying. You're supposed to learn that you shouldn't do the "bad" things in the first place.
You can't just say "It can't work like that" because you don't believe it. Believe it, then maybe you will see that it does work like that.
A good god wouldn't let you die, reincarnate, and punish you? Why not? Do you understand the concept of reincarnation? Nothing changes but your physical form, you're still the same spirit. Time has no meaning in spirit. It serves no purpose? Why not? He is not our parent. We are expected to obey the laws of the universe. We know them, whether conciously or unconciously. You're supposed to make the connection through higher thinking. Like I said, If you stub your toe, and you have an intuition as to why that happened, That's most likely why it happened.
It has been proven that when you think a thought, every atom in your body matches the vibration of that thought. If you constantly think about God, your vibration will constantly rise. If you constantly think about worldly things, your vibration will solidify.
I said the affirmation "God and I am one" for 3 days straight, as an expirment to this, about a year ago. When I stopped, the hum inside my head was incredible. My body felt light as a feather. It was absolutely amazing. You can't even imagine. Try it some day. Even just saying it once makes it so. The words "I Am" are very powerful. If you say I am <anything>, It becomes so.
I've gotta get some sleep, I'll be around tomorrow though.
yawn.
Good morning.
I think the point that has best been made is that you can't and probably shouldn't try to make people adopt your beliefs. Okay, so that's my point, but I like it best. People need to experience and decide for themselves. In fact, arguing about it could just turn people off to the mysterious and wonderful things of the mighty-mighty unseen. At least that is how I see it. I understand that when you're young, the on-fire missionary thing is natural, but it my case it nearly led to disaster. It's a good thing I'm a tough cookie. Others would have crumbled.
One of the worst things about this is that it smacks of prejudice and xenophobia. I have an enormously strong faith in a higher power, but I never once believed for a second that all those people in the Holocaust went to you-know-where. The God or Higher Power I know just ain't like that.
Take some sociology classes, even if they scare the heck out of you. If your faith is strong, it will survive, but you'll see that trying to prove you are 'right' is pointless.
The truth is, nobody really knows. Some believe, and some don't. There is a difference.
Live in peace and be a good example, period.
Model the behavior that you want to teach... The Psychology of Learning, 101. Modeling, not preaching or trying to explain, is the way to infect others with your values and beliefs. We could get into inner and outer motivational controls but I'll save that for another day.
Hmmmm. can anyone tell we've stepped on one of my hot buttons? Methinks I have overstayed my welcome...
Good morning.
I think the point that has best been made is that you can't and probably shouldn't try to make people adopt your beliefs. Okay, so that's my point, but I like it best.
People need to experience and decide for themselves. In fact, arguing about it could just turn people off to the mysterious and wonderful things of the mighty-mighty unseen. At least that is how I see it. I understand that when you're young, the on-fire missionary thing is natural, but it my case it nearly led to disaster. It's a good thing I'm a tough cookie. Others would have crumbled.One of the worst things about this is that it smacks of prejudice and xenophobia. I have an enormously strong faith in a higher power, but I never once believed for a second that all those people in the Holocaust went to you-know-where. The God or Higher Power I know just ain't like that.
Take some sociology classes, even if they scare the heck out of you. If your faith is strong, it will survive, but you'll see that trying to prove you are 'right' is pointless.
The truth is, nobody really knows. Some believe, and some don't. There is a difference.
Live in peace and be a good example, period.
Model the behavior that you want to teach... The Psychology of Learning, 101. Modeling, not preaching or trying to explain, is the way to infect others with your values and beliefs. We could get into inner and outer motivational controls but I'll save that for another day.
Hmmmm. can anyone tell we've stepped on one of my hot buttons? Methinks I have overstayed my welcome...
Eli asks:
<...What does a Christian have to gain by "converting" someone?..>
and answers:
<...Absolutely nothing,..>
Yet, FFMCobalt says:
<...I've got better things to do than argue with people who are only here to disagree. So if you're not going to believe, I'm not going to spend my time trying...>
Eli says:
<...I feel sorry for a lot of you who have no concept of a lot of the things that are second nature to me...>
<... I realize how fortunate I am to know the things that I do, after reading this thread. I pray for some of you,...>
<... It will result in our collapse, unless we realize it first. But we won't, as a great number of you demonstrate wonderfuly,...>
Well, Eli, if you gain nothing from the attempt to convert, then why do you so disrespect the beliefrs of others as to feel it necessary to shame them into embracing your own world view, as if it is more special than their own?
So, FFMCobalt, do you only wish to associate with others that agree with your own world view, perhaps because that kind of exclusive association lends an easily attained, self-reinforcing air of intellectual legitimacy to your beliefs?
<...What does a Christian have to gain by "converting" someone?..>
and answers:
<...Absolutely nothing,..>
Yet, FFMCobalt says:
<...I've got better things to do than argue with people who are only here to disagree. So if you're not going to believe, I'm not going to spend my time trying...>
Eli says:
<...I feel sorry for a lot of you who have no concept of a lot of the things that are second nature to me...>
<... I realize how fortunate I am to know the things that I do, after reading this thread. I pray for some of you,...>
<... It will result in our collapse, unless we realize it first. But we won't, as a great number of you demonstrate wonderfuly,...>
Well, Eli, if you gain nothing from the attempt to convert, then why do you so disrespect the beliefrs of others as to feel it necessary to shame them into embracing your own world view, as if it is more special than their own?
So, FFMCobalt, do you only wish to associate with others that agree with your own world view, perhaps because that kind of exclusive association lends an easily attained, self-reinforcing air of intellectual legitimacy to your beliefs?
<...What does a Christian have to gain by "converting" someone?..>
JAS 4:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Of course, if you commit a multitude of sins in the process, don't impart a true faith, and don't do it with love and compassion, I would imagine that the books turn against you in that case
JAS 4:20 remember this: Whoever turns a sinner from the error of his way will save him from death and cover over a multitude of sins.
Of course, if you commit a multitude of sins in the process, don't impart a true faith, and don't do it with love and compassion, I would imagine that the books turn against you in that case
One further point, if I may:
When FFMCobalt says:
<...So if you're not going to believe, I'm not going to spend my time trying...>
That precisely is what atheists, certainly, and other non-Christians, perhaps generally, wish to hear more often from our Christian brothers.
~zonker~;
As an atheist, I am without sin: a theistic concept. Therefore, I don't require 'turning'. The Christian presumption to the contrary is disrespectful of my own personal beliefs, and I might take offense at the insult.
When FFMCobalt says:
<...So if you're not going to believe, I'm not going to spend my time trying...>
That precisely is what atheists, certainly, and other non-Christians, perhaps generally, wish to hear more often from our Christian brothers.
~zonker~;
As an atheist, I am without sin: a theistic concept. Therefore, I don't require 'turning'. The Christian presumption to the contrary is disrespectful of my own personal beliefs, and I might take offense at the insult.
<< It's called the Universal Law of Karma >>
I really believe this to be true also. Everything is a series of actions and reactions. It has nothing to with good or bad. Until you drop the good/bad part, karma cannot be fully understood. After careful examination, one can start to see how to change one's own actions and reactions in order to have "control" over what happens to oneself. Sometimes you can control your life by what you do, sometimes by how you react.
<< I'm talking about the collapse of our society as we know it. That's what I mean by survivor. If this ever happened, It would be pure chaos. >>
If this happens, I think I may be screwed. I can't even manage camping (outdoors, not on a server) very well.
<< If you constantly think about God, your vibration will constantly rise. If you constantly think about worldly things, your vibration will solidify. >>
I noticed this as well when I fasted, meditated, and chanted for 10 days. For me, I need to constantly work at this, or I slip into a more "solid" way of thinking. I think many in all faiths have experienced this. I know of Catholic monks who pray for like 12 hours and have experienced the same thing.
Glenn1, my bad, I didn't elaborate on my part. I did thought about writing what you've corrected, but isn't that enough to say "I know Mt.Everest is there?".
This notion rest on my belief that other people's findings are legitimate and that I believe they are able to make such observations,-- because I do.
The thing about the origin of the Bible is that people at times take in facts according to their own needs. History goes all the way back and we'd pick up the stuff we like to hear with unpleasant facts go unnoticed.
Rosa Parks wasn't even the first black person to do that bus thing during the civil rights movement. They had a woman with a catchy name to put the icing on the cake, so history is ever so nice. With facts changed and people taking in what they want to hear, and what do you know, magic.
And also, don't we have a conscience already?
This notion rest on my belief that other people's findings are legitimate and that I believe they are able to make such observations,-- because I do.
The thing about the origin of the Bible is that people at times take in facts according to their own needs. History goes all the way back and we'd pick up the stuff we like to hear with unpleasant facts go unnoticed.
Rosa Parks wasn't even the first black person to do that bus thing during the civil rights movement. They had a woman with a catchy name to put the icing on the cake, so history is ever so nice. With facts changed and people taking in what they want to hear, and what do you know, magic.
And also, don't we have a conscience already?
Raspewtin
<< After careful examination, one can start to see how to change one's own actions and reactions in order to have "control" over what happens to oneself. Sometimes you can control your life by what you do, sometimes by how you react. >>
True, true. One of the most balanced and sane things I've heard so far.
Aren't you guys getting tired of talking about this yet? Frankly, I'd rather talk about sex. Or better yet, Politics!
<< After careful examination, one can start to see how to change one's own actions and reactions in order to have "control" over what happens to oneself. Sometimes you can control your life by what you do, sometimes by how you react. >>
True, true. One of the most balanced and sane things I've heard so far.
Aren't you guys getting tired of talking about this yet? Frankly, I'd rather talk about sex. Or better yet, Politics!
Wow.... what a loaded thread. This has the potential to turn ugly real fast... I learned the hard way- I'll try to measure my words carefully.
One of Satan's favorite weapons is organized religions, and he knows the Bible better than any of us. He knows just how to take a single verse and twist it totally out of context and get you to believe something totally different. We now have churches believing in all sorts of weird things that are definately NOT taught in the Bible, and fighting amongst themselves about who's right.
The BIBLE is right! Any "church" that believes otherwise has been tricked by Satan to potentially lead people AWAY from Christ!
This doen't mean a Jehova's Witness, Catholic, Mormon, whatever is going to Hell. Far from it- they still have some sort of walk with Jesus that should save them. The closer they walk with Jesus, the more they inherit his "personality" and become better people.
Unfortunately, there is a time of trouble, or tribulation, promised- where eventually people will have to choose- follow God's law or man's. It's during that time that it won't be as easy as it is now... you'll be persecuted for truly believing in Christ and his messages. This is a long story I'll save for another time.
The long and the short of it, is that there is really only one true sin and that is to live your life apart from Jesus, willingly. All other "sins" sprout from that. If you deny Jesus, you deny everything else- and thus- are denied heaven. Hell isn't eternal, but the bad thing is being denied heaven and eternal life- not the time it takes to be consumed by the fires of hell. THAT won't be eternal by a long shot!
There are currently very few churches that believe fully in the bible, and do their very best to follow it, but the point someone made earlier- it's better to gather with fellow Christians to discuss and learn than to go to a dying church filled with errors.
Last night on the radio, I'd overheard one of those "Frasier" type programs where a man said he was being ostracized by his wife's family because he was atheist and the family was all Christian. Does Jesus ostracize? No... Therefore should a *good* Christian ostracise, etc? No way! It's no wonder so many people are leaving religion, or going to something even MORE radical... If "God" or "Jesus" is like these people arguing and criticizing, etc., then they have no interest in being like Him, or following Him. This should sound familiar, unfortunately. Then there are those who just prefer Satan's life of "Have fun while you can." "Go ahead and rape, steal, destroy... It's great fun! Get drunk! Beat your wife! Ruin that old lady's life by taking her life savings!" If they do believe in hell, they think it'll be like the album covers... Party Time!! Be with your friends! Enjoy sunny, warm Hell! Most people simply prefer "winking out like a candle" and no longer existing. With no repercussions for their actions, they can rape women and boys, club seals, dump nuclear waste in the ocean, make a billion dollars exploiting the earth and kill yourself if you get caught. Great life, eh?
So much to say... I just have to choose carefully.
This has the potential to turn ugly real fast... I learned the hard way- I'll try to measure my words carefully.One of Satan's favorite weapons is organized religions, and he knows the Bible better than any of us. He knows just how to take a single verse and twist it totally out of context and get you to believe something totally different. We now have churches believing in all sorts of weird things that are definately NOT taught in the Bible, and fighting amongst themselves about who's right.
The BIBLE is right! Any "church" that believes otherwise has been tricked by Satan to potentially lead people AWAY from Christ!
This doen't mean a Jehova's Witness, Catholic, Mormon, whatever is going to Hell. Far from it- they still have some sort of walk with Jesus that should save them. The closer they walk with Jesus, the more they inherit his "personality" and become better people.
Unfortunately, there is a time of trouble, or tribulation, promised- where eventually people will have to choose- follow God's law or man's. It's during that time that it won't be as easy as it is now... you'll be persecuted for truly believing in Christ and his messages. This is a long story I'll save for another time.
The long and the short of it, is that there is really only one true sin and that is to live your life apart from Jesus, willingly. All other "sins" sprout from that. If you deny Jesus, you deny everything else- and thus- are denied heaven. Hell isn't eternal, but the bad thing is being denied heaven and eternal life- not the time it takes to be consumed by the fires of hell. THAT won't be eternal by a long shot!
There are currently very few churches that believe fully in the bible, and do their very best to follow it, but the point someone made earlier- it's better to gather with fellow Christians to discuss and learn than to go to a dying church filled with errors.
Last night on the radio, I'd overheard one of those "Frasier" type programs where a man said he was being ostracized by his wife's family because he was atheist and the family was all Christian. Does Jesus ostracize? No... Therefore should a *good* Christian ostracise, etc? No way! It's no wonder so many people are leaving religion, or going to something even MORE radical... If "God" or "Jesus" is like these people arguing and criticizing, etc., then they have no interest in being like Him, or following Him. This should sound familiar, unfortunately. Then there are those who just prefer Satan's life of "Have fun while you can." "Go ahead and rape, steal, destroy... It's great fun! Get drunk! Beat your wife! Ruin that old lady's life by taking her life savings!" If they do believe in hell, they think it'll be like the album covers... Party Time!! Be with your friends! Enjoy sunny, warm Hell! Most people simply prefer "winking out like a candle" and no longer existing. With no repercussions for their actions, they can rape women and boys, club seals, dump nuclear waste in the ocean, make a billion dollars exploiting the earth and kill yourself if you get caught. Great life, eh?
So much to say... I just have to choose carefully.
i could go for a nice set of jarts now. not those crappy sandbag things... the good pointy ones.
Isla, what you heard about Jehovah's Witnesses couldn't be further from the truth. If you're at all interested in why they visit people at their homes, go here: Click me
bluemax, I agree with most of what you said, it was very well put and well worth reading.
Zucchini, you bring up a very valid point as to why many people don't believe in God. If you would, please, ignore for now everything that Eli (sorry) told you about past lives, fate, etc., as it really has no Biblical backing. I tried to explain it briefly to you before, but if you're at all interested in how the Bible explains it, I'll give it a go for you to reason with (WARNING: rather long ):
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the existence of wickedness and of suffering prove that there is no God?
Consider examples: Does the fact that knives have been used to murder prove that no one designed them? Is the use of jet aircraft to drop bombs in time of war evidence that they had no designer? Or is it rather the use to which these are being put that is causing grief to mankind?
Is it not true that much disease is a result of man's own poor living habits and his spoiling of the environment for himself and others? Are not the wars fought by humans a major cause of human suffering? Is it not also true that, while millions suffer from lack of food, there is more than enough in other lands, so that one of the underlying problems is human greed? All these things give evidence, not that there is no God, but that humans are sadly misusing their God-given abilities and the earth itself.
Why does God permit suffering?
Who really is to blame for it?
Humans are to blame for much of the suffering. They fight wars, commit crimes, pollute the environment, often carry on business in a manner motivated by greed rather than concern for their fellowman, and sometimes indulge in habits that they know can be harmful to their health. When they do these things, they hurt others and themselves. Should it be expected that humans would be immune to the consequences of what they do? (Gal. 6:7; Prov. 1:30-33) Is it reasonable to blame God for these things that humans themselves do?
Satan and his demons also share responsibility. The Bible discloses that much suffering is because of the influence of wicked spirits. The suffering for which so many people blame God does not come from him at all.-Rev. 12:12; Acts 10:38; see also pages 363, 364, under the heading "Satan the Devil."
How did suffering get started? Examination of the causes focuses attention on our first human parents, Adam and Eve. God created them perfect and put them in paradise surroundings. If they had obeyed God, they would never have got sick or died. They could have enjoyed perfect human life forever. Suffering was not part of God's purpose for mankind. But God clearly told Adam that continued enjoyment of what He had given them depended on obedience. Obviously, they had to breathe, eat, drink, and sleep in order to continue living. And they had to keep God's moral requirements in order to enjoy life fully and to be favored with such life forever. But they chose to go their own way, to set their own standards of good and bad, and thus they turned away from God, the Life-Giver. (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-6) Sin led to death. It was as sinners that Adam and Eve produced children, and they could not pass on to their children what they no longer had. All were born in sin, with inclinations toward wrongdoing, weaknesses that could lead to illness, a sinful inheritance that would eventually result in death. Because everyone on earth today was born in sin, all of us experience suffering in various ways.-Gen. 8:21; Rom. 5:12.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 says that "time and unforeseen occurrence" also have a bearing on what happens to us. We may get hurt, not because the Devil directly causes it or because any human does it, but because by chance we are in a place at the wrong moment.
Why does God not do something to bring relief to mankind? Why should we all suffer for something that Adam did?
In the Bible, God tells us how we can avoid much suffering. He has provided the very best counsel on living. When applied, this fills our lives with meaning, results in happy family life, brings us into close association with people who really love one another, and safeguards us against practices that can bring much needless physical suffering. If we ignore that help, is it fair to blame God for the trouble that we bring upon ourselves and others?-2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:97-105.
God has made provision to end all suffering. He created the first human pair perfect, and he lovingly made every provision so that life would be pleasant for them. When they deliberately turned their backs on God, was God obligated to intervene so as to shield their children from the effects of what the parents had done? (Deut. 32:4, 5; Job 14:4) As we well know, married couples may have the joys that go with producing children, but they also have responsibilities. The attitudes and actions of parents affect their children. Nevertheless, God, as an expression of marvelous undeserved kindness, sent his own dearly loved Son to earth to lay down his life as a ransom, to provide relief for those of Adam's offspring who would appreciatively exercise faith in this provision. (John 3:16) As a result, the opportunity is open to people living today to have what Adam lost-perfect human life, free from suffering, in a paradise earth. What a generous provision that is!
But why would a God of love allow the suffering to continue so long?
Have we benefited because he has allowed it until now? "The LORD is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9) If God had immediately executed Adam and Eve, following their sin, none of us would be in existence today. Surely that is not what we would want. Moreover, had God at some later time destroyed all who were sinners, we would not have been born. The fact that God has allowed this sinful world to exist until now has afforded us the opportunity to be alive and learn his ways, to make needed changes in our lives, and to avail ourselves of his loving provisions for eternal life. That God has granted us this opportunity is an evidence of great love on his part. The Bible shows that God has a set time to destroy this wicked system and will do so soon.-Hab. 2:3; Zeph. 1:14.
God can and will undo all the harm that may come upon his servants in this system of things. God is not the one who is causing the suffering. But by means of Jesus Christ, God will raise the dead, heal obedient ones of all their illnesses, root out every trace of sin, and even cause former grief to fade from our minds.-John 5:28, 29; Rev. 21:4; Isa. 65:17.
The time that has elapsed has been needed to settle the issues that were raised in Eden. We personally are anxious to have relief. But when God takes action, it must be in behalf of all who love what is right, not just a few. God is not partial.-Acts 10:34.
Illustrations: Is it not true that a loving parent may allow a child to undergo a painful operation because of beneficial results that can come from it? Also, is it not true that "quick solutions" to painful ailments are often only superficial? More time is frequently needed in order to eliminate the cause.
Why did God not forgive Adam and so prevent the terrible suffering experienced by mankind?
Would that really have prevented suffering or would it, instead, have made God responsible for it? What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? The children often get involved in first one form of wrongdoing and then another, and much of the responsibility lies with the father.
Similarly, if God had forgiven Adam's deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing. That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11.) Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better. But such a situation could never have occurred, because righteousness is an unalterable foundation of God's rulership.-Ps. 89:14.
Why does God allow children to be born with serious physical and mental defects?
God does not cause such defects. He created the first human pair perfect, with the ability to bring forth perfect children in their own likeness.-Gen. 1:27, 28.
We have inherited sin from Adam. That inheritance carries with it the potential for physical and mental defects. (Rom. 5:12; for further details see page 394.) This inheritance of sin is with us from the time of conception in the womb. It is for that reason that King David wrote: "In sin my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5) If Adam had not sinned, there would be only desirable traits to transmit.
Parents can harm their unborn offspring-for example, by drug abuse or by smoking during pregnancy. Of course, it is not true that in every case the mother or the father is responsible for birth defects or poor health of their child.
God lovingly extends to children the benefits of Christ's ransom sacrifice. Out of consideration for parents who faithfully serve God, he views their young children as holy. (1 Cor. 7:14) This motivates God-fearing parents to be careful about their own standing with God, out of loving concern for their offspring. To young ones who are old enough to exercise faith and demonstrate obedience to God's commands, God extends the privilege of having an approved standing as his servants. (Ps. 119:9; 148:12, 13; Acts 16:1-3) It is noteworthy that Jesus, who was a perfect reflection of his Father, showed special interest in the welfare of young ones, even raising a child from the dead. Surely he will continue to do that as Messianic King.-Matt. 19:13-15; Luke 8:41, 42, 49-56.
Why does God permit "natural disasters," which cause extensive damage to property and life?
God is not causing the earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, droughts, and volcanic eruptions that are so often in today's news. He is not using these to bring punishment on certain peoples. To a large extent, these are caused by natural forces that have been operating since the earth's creation. The Bible foretold great earthquakes and food shortages for our day, but that does not mean that either God or Jesus is responsible for them, any more than a meteorologist is responsible for the weather that he forecasts. Because these are occurring along with all the other things foretold in the composite sign of the conclusion of this system of things, they are part of the evidence that the blessings of God's Kingdom are near.-Luke 21:11, 31.
Humans often bear heavy responsibility for harm done. In what way? Even when given ample warning, many people refuse to get out of the danger area or fail to take needed precautions.-Prov. 22:3; compare Matthew 24:37-39.
God can control such natural forces. He empowered Jesus Christ to calm a storm on the Sea of Galilee, as an example of what He will do for mankind under His Messianic Kingdom. (Mark 4:37-41) By turning his back on God, Adam rejected such divine intervention on behalf of himself and his offspring. Those who are granted life during Christ's Messianic Reign will experience such loving care, the kind of care that only a government empowered by God can give.-Isa. 11:9.
Are people who suffer adversity being punished by God because of wickedness?
Those who violate godly standards of living do experience bad effects. (Gal. 6:7) Sometimes they reap a bitter harvest quickly. In other instances, they may seem to prosper for a long time. In contrast, Jesus Christ, who never did wrong, was cruelly mistreated and put to death. So, in this system of things prosperity should not be viewed as proof of God's blessing, nor should adversity be considered proof of his disapproval.
When Job lost his possessions and was afflicted with loathsome disease, that was not because of God's disapproval. The Bible clearly says that Satan was responsible. (Job 2:3, 7, 8) But companions who came to visit Job argued that Job's plight must prove that he had done something wicked. (Job 4:7-9; 15:6, 20-24) Jehovah reproved them, saying: "My anger has grown hot against you . . . for you men have not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job."-Job 42:7.
Wicked ones may, in fact, prosper for a while. Asaph wrote: "I became envious of the boasters, when I would see the very peace of wicked people. They are not even in the trouble of mortal man, and they are not plagued the same as other men. They scoff and speak about what is bad; about defrauding they speak in an elevated style. Look! These are the wicked, who are at ease indefinitely. They have increased their means of maintenance."-Ps. 73:3, 5, 8, 12.
The day of accounting with God will come. At that time he will punish the wicked, destroying them forever. Proverbs 2:21, 22 says: "The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." Then the upright ones, many of whom have suffered adversity, will enjoy perfect health and a generous share of earth's abundant produce.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There you have it, I hope you at least found that somewhat interesting and worthy of your time. Wether that helps you increase your faith in God is entirely up to you. You may not like the way things are on earth today, heck, not many people do, me included, but I don't feel that it's a good reason to turn my back on God or even to go as far as to say that He doesn't exist. I'm looking ahead to the future that He has promised for the ones deserving of it. I sincerely hope that you will too...
bluemax, I agree with most of what you said, it was very well put and well worth reading.
Zucchini, you bring up a very valid point as to why many people don't believe in God. If you would, please, ignore for now everything that Eli (sorry
) told you about past lives, fate, etc., as it really has no Biblical backing. I tried to explain it briefly to you before, but if you're at all interested in how the Bible explains it, I'll give it a go for you to reason with (WARNING: rather long ):--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Does the existence of wickedness and of suffering prove that there is no God?
Consider examples: Does the fact that knives have been used to murder prove that no one designed them? Is the use of jet aircraft to drop bombs in time of war evidence that they had no designer? Or is it rather the use to which these are being put that is causing grief to mankind?
Is it not true that much disease is a result of man's own poor living habits and his spoiling of the environment for himself and others? Are not the wars fought by humans a major cause of human suffering? Is it not also true that, while millions suffer from lack of food, there is more than enough in other lands, so that one of the underlying problems is human greed? All these things give evidence, not that there is no God, but that humans are sadly misusing their God-given abilities and the earth itself.
Why does God permit suffering?
Who really is to blame for it?
Humans are to blame for much of the suffering. They fight wars, commit crimes, pollute the environment, often carry on business in a manner motivated by greed rather than concern for their fellowman, and sometimes indulge in habits that they know can be harmful to their health. When they do these things, they hurt others and themselves. Should it be expected that humans would be immune to the consequences of what they do? (Gal. 6:7; Prov. 1:30-33) Is it reasonable to blame God for these things that humans themselves do?
Satan and his demons also share responsibility. The Bible discloses that much suffering is because of the influence of wicked spirits. The suffering for which so many people blame God does not come from him at all.-Rev. 12:12; Acts 10:38; see also pages 363, 364, under the heading "Satan the Devil."
How did suffering get started? Examination of the causes focuses attention on our first human parents, Adam and Eve. God created them perfect and put them in paradise surroundings. If they had obeyed God, they would never have got sick or died. They could have enjoyed perfect human life forever. Suffering was not part of God's purpose for mankind. But God clearly told Adam that continued enjoyment of what He had given them depended on obedience. Obviously, they had to breathe, eat, drink, and sleep in order to continue living. And they had to keep God's moral requirements in order to enjoy life fully and to be favored with such life forever. But they chose to go their own way, to set their own standards of good and bad, and thus they turned away from God, the Life-Giver. (Gen. 2:16, 17; 3:1-6) Sin led to death. It was as sinners that Adam and Eve produced children, and they could not pass on to their children what they no longer had. All were born in sin, with inclinations toward wrongdoing, weaknesses that could lead to illness, a sinful inheritance that would eventually result in death. Because everyone on earth today was born in sin, all of us experience suffering in various ways.-Gen. 8:21; Rom. 5:12.
Ecclesiastes 9:11 says that "time and unforeseen occurrence" also have a bearing on what happens to us. We may get hurt, not because the Devil directly causes it or because any human does it, but because by chance we are in a place at the wrong moment.
Why does God not do something to bring relief to mankind? Why should we all suffer for something that Adam did?
In the Bible, God tells us how we can avoid much suffering. He has provided the very best counsel on living. When applied, this fills our lives with meaning, results in happy family life, brings us into close association with people who really love one another, and safeguards us against practices that can bring much needless physical suffering. If we ignore that help, is it fair to blame God for the trouble that we bring upon ourselves and others?-2 Tim. 3:16, 17; Ps. 119:97-105.
God has made provision to end all suffering. He created the first human pair perfect, and he lovingly made every provision so that life would be pleasant for them. When they deliberately turned their backs on God, was God obligated to intervene so as to shield their children from the effects of what the parents had done? (Deut. 32:4, 5; Job 14:4) As we well know, married couples may have the joys that go with producing children, but they also have responsibilities. The attitudes and actions of parents affect their children. Nevertheless, God, as an expression of marvelous undeserved kindness, sent his own dearly loved Son to earth to lay down his life as a ransom, to provide relief for those of Adam's offspring who would appreciatively exercise faith in this provision. (John 3:16) As a result, the opportunity is open to people living today to have what Adam lost-perfect human life, free from suffering, in a paradise earth. What a generous provision that is!
But why would a God of love allow the suffering to continue so long?
Have we benefited because he has allowed it until now? "The LORD is not slow respecting his promise, as some people consider slowness, but he is patient with you because he does not desire any to be destroyed but desires all to attain to repentance." (2 Pet. 3:9) If God had immediately executed Adam and Eve, following their sin, none of us would be in existence today. Surely that is not what we would want. Moreover, had God at some later time destroyed all who were sinners, we would not have been born. The fact that God has allowed this sinful world to exist until now has afforded us the opportunity to be alive and learn his ways, to make needed changes in our lives, and to avail ourselves of his loving provisions for eternal life. That God has granted us this opportunity is an evidence of great love on his part. The Bible shows that God has a set time to destroy this wicked system and will do so soon.-Hab. 2:3; Zeph. 1:14.
God can and will undo all the harm that may come upon his servants in this system of things. God is not the one who is causing the suffering. But by means of Jesus Christ, God will raise the dead, heal obedient ones of all their illnesses, root out every trace of sin, and even cause former grief to fade from our minds.-John 5:28, 29; Rev. 21:4; Isa. 65:17.
The time that has elapsed has been needed to settle the issues that were raised in Eden. We personally are anxious to have relief. But when God takes action, it must be in behalf of all who love what is right, not just a few. God is not partial.-Acts 10:34.
Illustrations: Is it not true that a loving parent may allow a child to undergo a painful operation because of beneficial results that can come from it? Also, is it not true that "quick solutions" to painful ailments are often only superficial? More time is frequently needed in order to eliminate the cause.
Why did God not forgive Adam and so prevent the terrible suffering experienced by mankind?
Would that really have prevented suffering or would it, instead, have made God responsible for it? What happens when a father simply overlooks deliberate wrongdoing on the part of his children rather than take firm disciplinary measures? The children often get involved in first one form of wrongdoing and then another, and much of the responsibility lies with the father.
Similarly, if God had forgiven Adam's deliberate sin, it would really have made God a party to the wrongdoing. That would not have improved conditions on earth at all. (Compare Ecclesiastes 8:11.) Furthermore, it would have resulted in disrespect for God on the part of his angelic sons, and it would mean that there was no real basis for hope of anything better. But such a situation could never have occurred, because righteousness is an unalterable foundation of God's rulership.-Ps. 89:14.
Why does God allow children to be born with serious physical and mental defects?
God does not cause such defects. He created the first human pair perfect, with the ability to bring forth perfect children in their own likeness.-Gen. 1:27, 28.
We have inherited sin from Adam. That inheritance carries with it the potential for physical and mental defects. (Rom. 5:12; for further details see page 394.) This inheritance of sin is with us from the time of conception in the womb. It is for that reason that King David wrote: "In sin my mother conceived me." (Ps. 51:5) If Adam had not sinned, there would be only desirable traits to transmit.
Parents can harm their unborn offspring-for example, by drug abuse or by smoking during pregnancy. Of course, it is not true that in every case the mother or the father is responsible for birth defects or poor health of their child.
God lovingly extends to children the benefits of Christ's ransom sacrifice. Out of consideration for parents who faithfully serve God, he views their young children as holy. (1 Cor. 7:14) This motivates God-fearing parents to be careful about their own standing with God, out of loving concern for their offspring. To young ones who are old enough to exercise faith and demonstrate obedience to God's commands, God extends the privilege of having an approved standing as his servants. (Ps. 119:9; 148:12, 13; Acts 16:1-3) It is noteworthy that Jesus, who was a perfect reflection of his Father, showed special interest in the welfare of young ones, even raising a child from the dead. Surely he will continue to do that as Messianic King.-Matt. 19:13-15; Luke 8:41, 42, 49-56.
Why does God permit "natural disasters," which cause extensive damage to property and life?
God is not causing the earthquakes, hurricanes, floods, droughts, and volcanic eruptions that are so often in today's news. He is not using these to bring punishment on certain peoples. To a large extent, these are caused by natural forces that have been operating since the earth's creation. The Bible foretold great earthquakes and food shortages for our day, but that does not mean that either God or Jesus is responsible for them, any more than a meteorologist is responsible for the weather that he forecasts. Because these are occurring along with all the other things foretold in the composite sign of the conclusion of this system of things, they are part of the evidence that the blessings of God's Kingdom are near.-Luke 21:11, 31.
Humans often bear heavy responsibility for harm done. In what way? Even when given ample warning, many people refuse to get out of the danger area or fail to take needed precautions.-Prov. 22:3; compare Matthew 24:37-39.
God can control such natural forces. He empowered Jesus Christ to calm a storm on the Sea of Galilee, as an example of what He will do for mankind under His Messianic Kingdom. (Mark 4:37-41) By turning his back on God, Adam rejected such divine intervention on behalf of himself and his offspring. Those who are granted life during Christ's Messianic Reign will experience such loving care, the kind of care that only a government empowered by God can give.-Isa. 11:9.
Are people who suffer adversity being punished by God because of wickedness?
Those who violate godly standards of living do experience bad effects. (Gal. 6:7) Sometimes they reap a bitter harvest quickly. In other instances, they may seem to prosper for a long time. In contrast, Jesus Christ, who never did wrong, was cruelly mistreated and put to death. So, in this system of things prosperity should not be viewed as proof of God's blessing, nor should adversity be considered proof of his disapproval.
When Job lost his possessions and was afflicted with loathsome disease, that was not because of God's disapproval. The Bible clearly says that Satan was responsible. (Job 2:3, 7, 8) But companions who came to visit Job argued that Job's plight must prove that he had done something wicked. (Job 4:7-9; 15:6, 20-24) Jehovah reproved them, saying: "My anger has grown hot against you . . . for you men have not spoken concerning me what is truthful as has my servant Job."-Job 42:7.
Wicked ones may, in fact, prosper for a while. Asaph wrote: "I became envious of the boasters, when I would see the very peace of wicked people. They are not even in the trouble of mortal man, and they are not plagued the same as other men. They scoff and speak about what is bad; about defrauding they speak in an elevated style. Look! These are the wicked, who are at ease indefinitely. They have increased their means of maintenance."-Ps. 73:3, 5, 8, 12.
The day of accounting with God will come. At that time he will punish the wicked, destroying them forever. Proverbs 2:21, 22 says: "The upright are the ones that will reside in the earth, and the blameless are the ones that will be left over in it. As regards the wicked, they will be cut off from the very earth; and as for the treacherous, they will be torn away from it." Then the upright ones, many of whom have suffered adversity, will enjoy perfect health and a generous share of earth's abundant produce.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
There you have it, I hope you at least found that somewhat interesting and worthy of your time. Wether that helps you increase your faith in God is entirely up to you. You may not like the way things are on earth today, heck, not many people do, me included, but I don't feel that it's a good reason to turn my back on God or even to go as far as to say that He doesn't exist. I'm looking ahead to the future that He has promised for the ones deserving of it. I sincerely hope that you will too...
Zombie
Sorry dude. I guess that's the glory of misinformation! That's what the charismatics told me.
Curious.... if those are your beliefs, why is your screen name Zombie? It seems incongruous. Of course, it's just a screen name.... but is has connotations.
Peace
Sorry dude. I guess that's the glory of misinformation! That's what the charismatics told me.
Curious.... if those are your beliefs, why is your screen name Zombie? It seems incongruous. Of course, it's just a screen name.... but is has connotations.
Peace
Homer Simpson:
"It's so easy to make ourselves feel guilty. We could blame ourselves, but it's really Apu's fault!"
"It's so easy to make ourselves feel guilty. We could blame ourselves, but it's really Apu's fault!"
Hi Isla, this is an old screen name that I really no longer use except in forums that I've already registered to awhile ago, so people just know me by it. Like you said, it's just a screen name. (it's how I feel when I first wake up in the morning before my coffee... )
)<...How did suffering get started? Examination of the causes focuses attention on our first human parents, Adam and Eve...>
I spy a turle, down near the bottom.
<... Does the fact that knives have been used to murder prove that no one designed them?...>
There's another turtle: that because we can attribute to ourselves, and to the universe at large, a complexity imaginably the result of purposeful design, that indeed we must conclude that we and the universe were purposely designed: created.
Though it may be the simplest explanation, the explanation most easily entertained by the masses, that alone does not make it the correct explanation; just because most everyone can easily imagine it.
(It was easiest for our ancestors to imagine the sun to each day rise in the east and set in the west than it was for them to divine the actuallity of Earth's rotation causing the eastern horizon to fall away and reveal the sun.)
I spy a turle, down near the bottom.
<... Does the fact that knives have been used to murder prove that no one designed them?...>
There's another turtle: that because we can attribute to ourselves, and to the universe at large, a complexity imaginably the result of purposeful design, that indeed we must conclude that we and the universe were purposely designed: created.
Though it may be the simplest explanation, the explanation most easily entertained by the masses, that alone does not make it the correct explanation; just because most everyone can easily imagine it.
(It was easiest for our ancestors to imagine the sun to each day rise in the east and set in the west than it was for them to divine the actuallity of Earth's rotation causing the eastern horizon to fall away and reveal the sun.)
UG- Hmm. Well put. I understand what you're saying. Maybe I was wrong in saying those things, but that's how I felt. I tried to be as non-judgemental as I could. I wasn't intentionally putting anyones beliefs down, I am sorry if I came across like that. When you help someone, It makes you feel good. I was only trying to help.
That's an interesting concept you've got about sin there, UG. :Q
bluemax- Wonderfully said.
ZomBie- No harm done I realize what you're saying. Excellent post.
That's an interesting concept you've got about sin there, UG. :Q
bluemax- Wonderfully said.
ZomBie- No harm done
I realize what you're saying. Excellent post.TRENDING THREADS
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