Today, I get a crash course in a piping material I was unaware of - polybutylene

[Torn Mind]

That's polybutylene. Had a leaking toilet tank from the fill hose and I was tasked to fix it. Inspected the tube connector and saw the screw was cracked for the stiff hose. So I installed those flexible hose onto the toilet and noticed that this "copper" sure was flexible. It was then that it freaking sprung a leak at the joint and I googled piping materials. Needless to say, since I only encounter CPVC and copper before, this was an actual what the hell moment for me. The particular house was built in 1988, so kind of a blessing in disguise that it didn't blow up in the walls?

 

[Greenman]

Only ever seen it used in mobile homes.

 

[pcgeek11]

Looks like you need a re-piping of your house.

Polybutylene Piping

Polybutylene repiping for apartments & condos addresses the issue of aging polybutylene pipes in multifamily properties.

www.polybutylene.com

Polybutylene Piping

Polybutylene repiping for apartments & condos addresses the issue of aging polybutylene pipes in multifamily properties.

www.polybutylene.com

 

[herm0016]

hmm. yep. that sucks.

 

[pcgeek11]

I used these guys when I had my house re-piped 22 years ago. They completed the job in two days ripping out all of the copper and installing all CPVC with all new cutoff valves. All holes (which there were only a few ) in the drywall patched.

Excellent work, reasonable price and a lifetime warranty ( that I have never had to use ).

Plumbing Company - AZ, CA, NV, CO, & FL | Delta Mechanical

We have been the go-to plumbing company for American homeowners for over 30 years. We have the best plumbers in the trade!

www.deltamechanical.com

 

[Torn Mind]

The real kicker is that someone might have already did some work since copper appears in the basement and first floors; that lead me to believe it was a copper house. This house was “kind of” remodeled because the previous owner lost the ability to care for herself and the lawyers controlling the guardianship stepped in to get funds to pay for nursing home care. She apparently had dogs as well, so it must have been stinky. So they tossed in hardwood floors, fresh paint, new appliances way back in 2012. I didn’t want it then because the rooms were tiny for a rental house, but it wasn’t my money or decision to make.

Short term, I could Sharkbite the pipe and get back the water, but long term, it seems that the bathroom needs to have its drywall cut and the location of the transition to copper discovered.

 

[Greenman]

I used these guys when I had my house re-piped 22 years ago. They completed the job in two days ripping out all of the copper and installing all CPVC with all new cutoff valves. All holes (which there were only a few ) in the drywall patched.

Excellent work, reasonable price and a lifetime warranty ( that I have never had to use ).

Plumbing Company - AZ, CA, NV, CO, & FL | Delta Mechanical

We have been the go-to plumbing company for American homeowners for over 30 years. We have the best plumbers in the trade!

www.deltamechanical.com

Why would you pull out copper and install plastic? Is there something in your local water supply that corrodes the copper?

 

[Torn Mind]

Why would you pull out copper and install plastic? Is there something in your local water supply that corrodes the copper?

Pex

I've always been a fan of copper plumbing, but the project I'm doing now almost has to be done in pex. Is there a specific brand I should be looking at? It occurs to me that the fittings are far more important than the pipe, specifically the connection method. Right off hand I can say that...

forums.anandtech.com

He talked about it 4 years ago. Maybe he was on well water?

 

[Micrornd]

Why would you pull out copper and install plastic? Is there something in your local water supply that corrodes the copper?

It may have been a remodel on the cheap. (TLDR link)
PB was available with crimp-on fittings or with plastic compression fittings.
With the flexibility of PB and the cheap plastic compression fittings anyone could be a "plumber".
It was approved by National and local building codes for use in all applications where PVC was approved.

The failure for PB wasn't really the material, so much as the crimp-on fittings.
The were made of a hard plastic that didn't age well, was susceptible to certain chemicals in the water and also required a tool for each size (like early PEX), that was properly calibrated to the proper crimp size and crimping force.
As you can imagine many plumbers and wannabe plumbers just "knew" those expensive tools weren't "really" needed

PB itself was also susceptible to long term exposure to some of the residual chemicals of treated potable water.
"New" PB is still in use today, generally from the water main tap to the residential/commercial water meter and generally black in color, with metallic compression style fittings.
The "new" PB has been reformulated to eliminate chemical interaction with potable water and is a very viable alternative to copper in this application.
PB has not been available since 1996 when Shell stopped selling the resin required for its manufacture, due to the $1B lawsuit settlement it was force to pay.
PB is no longer allowed under National and local building codes.

FWIW, my own home was plumbed with PB when it was built back in the '80s. I have yet to have a single piping failure, but I did have 4 fitting failures.
Since the home has a crawl space, I remedied this by replacing ALL the fittings with Shark-Bite fittings in the crawl space area.
90% of the in-wall piping has been replaced with PEX during various remodels and what's left will be replaced when the wife wants that room remodeled
Being on well water I expect this to be the end of it, from my experiences in the field.
If I have to replace the piping in the crawl space in the future (for some unknow reason), I'll simply use PEX and reuse the Shark-Bite fittings.

 

[Greenman]

I've never seen PB used around here, except in mobile homes. It's also a pretty fair bet that I'll never use it. I didn't start using pex until a couple years back.

Shark bite fittings make me nervous. I need to see the mechanical connection, I need to know that it's properly connected and isn't going to blow apart from water hammer. I'm a very conservative fellow when it's my ass hanging in the wind.

 

[pcgeek11]

Why would you pull out copper and install plastic? Is there something in your local water supply that corrodes the copper?

Yes.

I was getting pinhole leaks about once a month. It is a very real thing in the southeast and Texas and several other places. After I had about 7 or 8 leaks I repaired myself I gave in and had the entire house re-piped.

You should have seen the copper that came out. There were hundreds of areas on the verge of leaking.

Google Search

 

[Torn Mind]

Yes.

I was getting pinhole leaks about once a month. It is a very real thing in the southeast and Texas and several other places. After I had about 7 or 8 leaks I repaired myself I gave in and had the entire house re-piped.

You should have seen the copper that came out. There were hundreds of areas on the verge of leaking.

Google Search

Copper Corrosion...It's the Pits.

Copper water pipe corrosion can result in pitting, which leads to pinhole leaks. Over time, this causes mold & mildew growth, and the need for repiping.

sagewater.com

Possible water treatment chemicals making it happen?

 

[Torn Mind]

I did a temporary fix today on the pipe. Just used a compression shutoff valve designed for copper on the PB pipe and got it tightened just right so no more leaking for now. Also bought the longest flexible valve to minimize awkward pressures and forces on the pipe.

Took a peek into the wall behind toilet on second floor. Seemslike it is all grey stuff in that bathroom. This house is a mix of PB and copper. The first floor half-bath is borderline bizzare. Copper to PB and back to copper on the outside.

 

[Torn Mind]

Here are some pics.

 

[pcgeek11]

What a Cluster Fudge.

I say it again. You sir need to get a re-pipe. What you have is a disaster just ready to happen.

 

[pcgeek11]

Copper Corrosion...It's the Pits.

Copper water pipe corrosion can result in pitting, which leads to pinhole leaks. Over time, this causes mold & mildew growth, and the need for repiping.

sagewater.com

Possible water treatment chemicals making it happen?

Never did figure it out. My CPVC has never had any issues, knock on wood...

 

[[DHT]Osiris]

Looks like you need a re-piping of your house.

Polybutylene Piping

Polybutylene repiping for apartments & condos addresses the issue of aging polybutylene pipes in multifamily properties.

www.polybutylene.com

Polybutylene Piping

Polybutylene repiping for apartments & condos addresses the issue of aging polybutylene pipes in multifamily properties.

www.polybutylene.com

Ugh, my in-laws had that garbage in their house (70's build) in SC. Had a guy doing some electrical work that was in their attic and a tool dangling from his belt tapped one of them, bursting it. Caused a huge amount of flooding before he could find where the shutoff valve was for the house (we had run down to the store at the time). Bonus, he wasn't bonded. They ended up getting it all ripped out of the house after that.

 

[Micrornd]

Shark bite fittings make me nervous. I need to see the mechanical connection, I need to know that it's properly connected and isn't going to blow apart from water hammer. I'm a very conservative fellow when it's my ass hanging in the wind.

While "SharkBites" are a relatively new name, push-fit fittings have been in existence for over 30 years that I personally know of. While SharkBites are rated for 200psi, the same fitting from other manufacturers in plastic, not metal, are rated for 200psi+ and approved by the DOT for use in air brake systems at a national level.
The SS retainer (the "bite" part) is what allows the 200psi rating in both, while the self-captured piping insert in the SharkBite prevents the collapse (and escape) of the piping inserted into the fitting.
These types of fittings are used in many labs, as they require very limited plumbing skills and can be purchase in a wide selection of materials for varying chemical resistance.
And push-fit fittings are available entirely in copper for the diehards
All failures I've seen with push-fit fittings have been caused by the users and 90% of the time from just not reading and following the installation instructions.

 

[Micrornd]

Here are some pics. View attachment 16943View attachment 16944View attachment 16945

That shows the crimp rings on the PB I spoke of, that require a specially calibrated tool to install properly.
That's a rather bizarre mix of PB and copper, almost as if they wanted to hide the PB and make only copper visible to the buyers.
You really should replace that PB.