PrincessFrosty, there is a perception that needs to be addressed, but your plan of action makes no sense. Your response regarding relieving "unmanageable" pressure on the NHS makes no sense because if levels are "unmanageable" now, you haven't even hinted of a plan that could help that right now, even if immigration was stopped today, your plan still wouldn't work.
It makes no sense to you because you're looking at one part of a larger plan in isolation and then critiquing that one thing alone, rather than looking at a bigger picture of change. If you steadfastly refuse to acknowledge that stopping immigration is part of a bigger picture then there's nothing I can say that's going to make any sense to you.
You need to consider the fact that people supporting leave don't do so in isolation and they're broadly campaigning for many different things which come together as a plan to make the country better.
It's good to know that you would at least allow some immigrants in to staff the NHS, but until I mentioned it, you hadn't either. Which industries to you also intend to allow immigrants in? How many immigrants is too many, particularly according to the perception of the masses who believe that immigration is an issue? Is there a magic figure? Does the NHS get first dibs then ever other industry? Does an industry get to die because other industries had dibs before them?
Yeah instead of assuming something I've not explicitly stated it'd be best to either remain unsure on that until you've asked, I don't like people making assumptions about my position which cannot be directly inferred from what I've said. I would happily back immigration to help prop up any industry which is suffering from a lack of specialists it doesn't really matter what that is, the key is to have immigration which benefits the country, these people should be filling gaps for jobs we can't fill ourselves, paying taxes into the system and integrating into the culture. Right now we have a lot of the opposite of that, we have unskilled workers coming in and taking jobs which many working class people need more of, they're often not paying taxes especially if working illegally or not working at all, and they're not integrating in fact studies show that 2nd and 3rd generation immigrants often become more polarized against the culture, not less, in large part because their value system is so fundamentally different than ours and they form communities which separate themselves from the native culture.
I already agreed that ignoring issues is bad, but all you've presented is a perception of an immigration problem. Unless you can actually demonstrate that perfectly suitable UK citizens are rejected in large numbers for jobs in favour of immigrants, or that most immigrants only come to the UK to milk the benefits without contributing to our economy/society, then all it is is your perception, fuelled by opportunistic politicians and news companies.
But it's not enough that the remain side agree that ignoring issues is bad, it needs to be something acted upon. So when a Prime Minister lies about something and says "if we're wrong, don't re-elect us" that they're not re-elected and continue to ignore these issues. And call it a side step or whatever you want but I'm not going to go through the process of presenting all the things I've read and studied that informed my position because I don't realistically expect it to change anyone's mind, people are generally too polarized on this issue.
What I'd rather discuss is the frustration I have for the remain side, not because I disagree with their position, because I know enough to know that much of the division comes from the values each side have being different, I can put myself in the remain camps shoes enough to understand that they genuinely believe their position is right. The frustration I have comes from the fact that you don't even behave in your own best interest, it should have been a big red flashing warning sign when an anti-EU party (UKIP) was elected into the EU Parliament, shouldn't that have been the first clue that people were upset with the EU and that change was needed?
Isn't the rational thing to do is even though you don't like it, actually bend on some issues to give the people who want to leave some of the things they want? Is it not better to concede some issues but do so in the knowledge it wont leave to something drastic like brexit or even worse (from your point of view I guess?) a party like UKIP winning a GE.
But this isn't what we saw, the failures were ignored and tensions grew as large swaths of the population became disaffected, I just hope that what can be learned from this mess is that in a democracy you have to concede to some things and if you don't and just try and shame people who oppose you eventually those people respond as an electorate.
It's exactly what happened in the states, the left hate trump with a passion but they created him, that's sad irony of it all, by taking things too far and using shaming to silence people with genuine concerns they push back by voting for someone like that. Would have have as much support if the government actually addressed the legitimate concerns of the people regarding immigration etc? No of course not. So now we have this man who cannot be shamed because he doesn't let political correctness silence him or pretend to have views he doesn't really have, and people LOVE him for that. Entirely left created, and no one seems to realise that.
You've repeatedly said that either there is no plan, no manifesto, or there is a plan but it's not being worked on by the government right now (whatever that means), or there is a plan but not provided any specifics except 1) brexit then 2) wait for the next GE. This isn't a plan.
No I said that the vote wasn't on a manifesto it was on in/out, which is factually true. There was no option at the referendum to vote for a specific policy or manifesto, it was a single question, and I believe that as part of a larger plan to fix things it was necessary. But you analyze that decision in isolation aside from anything else and then criticize it.
Right now we don't have a government that wants to fix immigration so there is no plan we can possibly have that will work, but that's a problem with the government and the system. So we need to vote in a government who will actually do something about it, that's all we can do because the current one is simply ignoring the issue. And then when we have a government that represents the will of the people they can put a plan together to lower immigration and fix this mess. Just because one side has politically maneuvered to make the consequences worse doesn't mean we should back down.
Things might be shit for a time but that's what it takes to get long term beneficial change then that's what it takes and people are prepared to go through it, I am and so are many others. It's why the UK is such a great nation because we have those values, we don't back down from hard times we rise to it.
Yeah people might get angry but don't be too sure that'll be at those who voted leave, it may very well be directed at the government which got us here in the first place by ignoring the people for so long and breeding a culture which tries to shame the opposition instead of honestly negotiate a middle ground. The left is super mad right now but the right have been much more mad for much longer, you think you're angry now, try being ignored for decades as problems grow that affect you and your family and when you try and speak up about it you get called a racist.
But maybe that's what the left need in order to bring back negotiation on this, a taste of inflexibility themselves.
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