You said that public services at present are being pushed to "unmanageable" levels, so in order to correct the status quo logically those *current* levels must be reduced.
Absolutely, something needs to be done about that but you cannot possibly hope to correct that problem until you've addressed the sources of the problem. You could hypothetically send back 100's of thousands of people freeloading off the system, but if free movement allows them back in, that's all for naught. What you do if you want to address the problem is stop the sources of the problem, one of which is massive unchecked immigration,and once that's under control you can rationally asses the situation and start making changes that will work long term.
If you have a gas fire you dont start throwing water on the fire to put it out, you go and turn off the source of gas first, then you put the fire out otherwise your efforts are for nothing.
Also, now that you've voted for raising the bar on immigration at a time when the NHS has staffing shortages right across the board and a significant percentage of that staff are immigrants. You talk about unmanageable loads yet you want to make it harder for the NHS to get the staff it needs.
No you're asserting positions of mine I've not explicitly stated to straw man my position. How do you know about my position on NHS staffing, have you asked me about that? NO! My position is that if we cannot staff it with Britons for some reason X, and that reason X cannot be addressed directly, then we allow in migrants specifically suited to address this position. The Japanese have done this for centuries, they ahve almost no immigration allowed, they let people in when they're in need of specific jobs, nothing wrong with that at all. Voting to leave the EU cannot possibly be used to infer my position on something like this, so I'd appreciate you not speak for me with regards to my own opinions.
We're back to this thing you were going on about before which makes little sense, this idea you run on that immigrants are both free-loaders and job stealers. If they're in work then they're helping pay for those services. If they're not sick, then they're paying for services for others to use.
They're coming into an already established infrastructure of hospitals, roads, schools and other services which was paid for by the people who have lived here for their entire lives, and they use these services without ever having contributed. Some work decent jobs and pay taxes and that's nice but these people often take more out of the pot than they've contributed which is why parties such as UKIP want to put in place barriers of say 5 years of paying into the pot before they can take back out, which seems reasonable to me. Many of these migrants enter and work the low paid (often less than min wage) jobs illegally and do not pay tax at all. And this displaces local workers who are often the poorer people who just want to work but can't LEGALLY offer to work for less than min wage to compete.
IMO you've just admitted that your "values" argument is a load of shit. You think that you can bundle immigrants into one category despite the fact that they come from all over the world.
Didn't bundle them at all, some of them do share our values, some don't, some pretend to but secretly practice illegal things outside of our law. It's a spectrum, and it's a problem and it's being ignored and often allowed to happen (AKA Rotherham and many other places like it), It's disgusting.
Yes, while unemployment goes way up, welfare benefits go down and pressure on public services goes up. Maybe you'll achieve the vision you've got by tanking our economy so that no-one wants to move here anyway.
There's no long term indication this will happen, pound and FTSE are already bouncing back, this is just fear mongering at the moment.
Nothing in the meantime? Interesting plan. Do you want to do any trading with the EU? Apparently 40% of our exports go there.
I intend to encourage the government to actually address the concerns of the people, fight for UKIP and keep doing what I've done for the last few years which is generally be quite politically active. People trade with whoever gives them the best deal, doesn't matter who that is really.
That's because there aren't any steps in the plan. If the UK leaves the EU, the only plan will be to pick up the pieces and attempt to maintain the status quo. That means attempting to keep everything the same despite the fact that the rug has been pulled from under the economy.
And this is what got you lot into the trouble you percieve yourself to be in now. Don't you see that? You ignored more than 50% of the voters on an issue they care deeply about and it blew up in your face. if the plan of government is to ignore those people AGAIN then what do you think is going to happen come the next GE? And we'll be back here in 4 years time.
I keep saying this and no one is listening. What is the lesson here? If you ignore the majority then theyre going to use their voting power to get their way in a democracy, and the leave win is an example of that. If they're ignored again then you can bet UKIP will be running in the next GE to say to these people "you were ignored once, you voted to get your way but you were still ignored, vote us in and we'll make the change you want" and when people go to vote again we'll see the same result, and it's a very real possibility that UKIP could win if the common man is ignored again.
So what's the rational thing to do? ADDRESS THE ISSUES! People in power shouldn't be trying to maintain the status quo when it was maintaining the status quo that got us into this mess.
You're either being completely dishonest to yourself or impossibly naive. If it's naivety, then I suggest that you learn quickly how most politicians work, because what Farage did is typical of the most weasel-like behaviour I'd expect from one. An honest politician who supports a campaign would point out an inaccuracy.
This shaming is the only tactic the remain side could muster and it didn't work, and it isn't working now and it's not going to work anymore. You have to engage with intellectual honesty if you want a hope at there being some middle ground met, simply throwing around accusations and insults won't work anymore, that has failed, we're done.
I think we're done. I have argued honestly. Once I had a reasonable idea of your argument, I think you've basically voted for a massive change yet no plan attached to it. You're hoping that voting out of the EU results in all these great changes (none specified) that makes the UK will be "great again", yet assuming that the UK prospers, immigration will be lower, despite the fact that most people immigrate to find a job.
No this is a complete mis-representation of my position and it means you're not arguing honestly. I did say that I had a plan attached to it but that out of the EU was one small part and was necessary for the rest of the plan to work. Out of the EU first, then get a nationalistic party in the next GE, campaign for UKIP to follow through with lowering immigration which is only possible outside of the EU.
Yeah we're done, go away and contemplate that now the numbers are starting to favor nationalism and euroskepticism and that attacking those positions has failed. You need to regroup with a new tactic that is to debate the issues honestly, prepared to make concessions to please the majority OR if you're unwilling to bend on that position you're in a very real possibility of losing power all together and facing a government like UKIP which I'm sure from your point of view is something you want to avoid.
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