Today Britain votes on remaining part of the EU

[K1052]

Just looked at an article in the Washington post that started with "a week after Britain was plunged into chaos by a vote to exit the E.U." I had no idea they were plunged into chaos. If there rioting in the streets? Food lines, marshal law, aircraft dropping supplies on parachutes?
I'm so sick of propaganda, it's become nearly impossible to find simple factual reporting. Everyone has an agenda and most have absolutely no problem slanting a story to make their point.

The press can be hyperbolic? Well that's a new development.

Right now the only plausible claim to chaos is in their political world.

 

[mikeymikec]

I get the feeling the politicians who pushed this didnt actually believe it would pass. They expected it to fail then use it to gain more power. Once the vote came back to leave. Their bluff was called. Now they seem to be running for the exit as fast as possible. This is why direct democracy is a disaster. Luckily the vote is non-binding. So parliament can ignore it.

Unfortunately, Theresa May (tipped to be the next PM) has said that "brexit means brexit".

Also, if Boris isn't a complete idiot, he knew it was going to be close; every poll had it close. It was obvious that it was going to be close even as far back as the cut-off date for registering to vote. This could have been easily averted, say by leaving a mic on while a prominent tory said something really "stupid". That tory takes one for the team and gets rewarded for it in one of many ways that past-it politicians get their favours cashed in.

 

[norseamd]

Also, if Boris isn't a complete idiot, he knew it was going to be close; every poll had it close. It was obvious that it was going to be close even as far back as the cut-off date for registering to vote. This could have been easily averted, say by leaving a mic on while a prominent tory said something really "stupid". That tory takes one for the team and gets rewarded for it in one of many ways that past-it politicians get their favours cashed in.

Boris Johnson seems like a more intelligent, less drug addicted, and far less extreme Rob Ford in some ways. Although given what little I currently know about Boris Johnson, the similarities are probably only superficial.

“Beneath the carefully constructed veneer of a blithering buffoon, there lurks a blithering buffoon.”

http://foreignpolicy.com/2016/06/30/goodbye-boris-johnson-we-hardly-knew-ye-britain-brexit/

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/pol...on/10909094/Boris-Johnsons-top-50-quotes.html

 

[Greenman]

The UK is now not in a stronger position. The Leavers thought that it wouldn't pass and even if it did that the leverage could be used to wring concessions out of the EU. They have called your hand and said no negotiations until Article 50 is triggered. The one topic they seem to be in unanimous agreement about is that whatever deal the UK secures will not be more favorable than those which have been extended to Norway and Switzerland (movement, payments to structural fund, abide by EU regs). It has been explicitly made clear that the UK will need to agree to the vast majority of obligations they currently have under their EU membership for commensurately favorable agreements.

Given the volume of trade the UK does inside the EU this is not some trivial matter of "Oh we'll just trade with someone else and everything should be fine".

"Leavers" really?
I find the idea that they voted for something they didn't really want absurd. If the Brits are that stupid they were doomed to fail under any circumstances.
I'd also note that trade deals aren't a one way proposition, if the EU decides to punish the UK, they will also be punishing themselves. They may very well do that because they want their membership to understand that leaving will have undesirable consequences. But they also have their own problems and a trade war with the UK would be very bad for both.

 

[Blackjack200]

Unfortunately, Theresa May (tipped to be the next PM) has said that "brexit means brexit".

Indeed, funny that only the EU and the "Stay" camp Tories seem to have any principle.

 

[K1052]

"Leavers" really?
I find the idea that they voted for something they didn't really want absurd. If the Brits are that stupid they were doomed to fail under any circumstances.
I'd also note that trade deals aren't a one way proposition, if the EU decides to punish the UK, they will also be punishing themselves. They may very well do that because they want their membership to understand that leaving will have undesirable consequences. But they also have their own problems and a trade war with the UK would be very bad for both.

I was speaking about a lot of the politicians who supported Leave. Although it would seem that a not inconsequential number of voters who chose leave may not have actually understood the implications and treated it as a protest vote instead of something that would set policy. This is why we don't practice direct democracy on a national scale.

Trade deals of course aren't one way but please explain to me logically how the UK is going to withdraw from the EU and retain all the benefits of membership yet none of the costs/rules, something several euro heads of state explicitly reject as remotely possible. Never mind that such a deal would only cause other EU members to do the same thing as the UK and unravel the whole organization. It would effectively be suicide. People have been promised a free lunch which isn't coming.

 

[Svnla]

The calm before the real storm? - http://www.businessinsider.com/hsbc...is-brexit-precarious-calm-before-storm-2016-6

.

 

[Perknose]

Just looked at an article in the Washington post that started with "a week after Britain was plunged into chaos by a vote to exit the E.U." I had no idea they were plunged into chaos. If there rioting in the streets? Food lines, marshal law, aircraft dropping supplies on parachutes?
I'm so sick of propaganda...

Then maybe stop with your own?

If the President of the US abruptly resigned, and the VP from his own party refused the office as well, while the dollar plummeted in value and several major corporations and banks considered leaving the US even as incidences of unprovoked attacks on foreigners soared, while the leader of the US party not in power was formally and publicly rejected by ~ 80% of his party's legislators, yeah, no chaos there, eh?

Let's throw in several states and entire regions now wanting to secede and the credit rating of the US government being downgraded. Right, nothing to see here. No chaos at all! Why, it's mere mention would be nothing but "propaganda" in your eyes, right?

There is none so blind as he who refuses to see.

 

[Greenman]

I was speaking about a lot of the politicians who supported Leave. Although it would seem that a not inconsequential number of voters who chose leave may not have actually understood the implications and treated it as a protest vote instead of something that would set policy. This is why we don't practice direct democracy on a national scale.

Trade deals of course aren't one way but please explain to me logically how the UK is going to withdraw from the EU and retain all the benefits of membership yet none of the costs/rules, something several euro heads of state explicitly reject as remotely possible. Never mind that such a deal would only cause other EU members to do the same thing as the UK and unravel the whole organization. It would effectively be suicide. People have been promised a free lunch which isn't coming.

I don't think I can answer your question, as I haven't read the EU treaty. I don't know what all the benefits of membership are. I can tell you it isn't free, and I can tell you that there are some negative points to be considered. Immigration seems to be one of the main ones. I don't have any issue with the Brits wanting to protect their culture, they get to do that, it's their culture and they like it. They also seem to be upset about the EU nations that are living off of EU money, Greece being a prime example.

The bottom line is that the decision was placed in the hands of the voters, they decided to leave, that's it. The claims that half the population are to stupid to understand what they were voting for is propaganda. It's sour grapes from the folks that wanted to stay, and it's being driven by a media blitz that uses all of the key words: Chaos, disaster, panic, ignorance, and the number one all time greatest mover and shaker, RACISM. FUD by any other name.

 

[RichUK]

Hopefully Theresa May can steer us back into the EU and sort out this mess.

BoJo comes across a maverick and volatile, so glad he bowed out. Gove is just a numpty and looks like Peewee Herman.

We've lost a good PM in Cameron, it's a shame.

 

[RichUK]

Also, I wouldn't draw any final conclusions on the recovery of the FTSE. Wait until the farcical / uninspiring negotiations start and then watch the economy tank.

Pessimistic, yes, I know, but I'm a realist.

Brexit is just an unsubstantiated / fingers crossed strategy.

 

[RichUK]

And lastly, LOL at Scotland begging to strike a deal to remain part of the EU.

 

[norseamd]

We've lost a good PM in Cameron, it's a shame.

Less worse than other right wing nutjobs? For sure.

Good? Not sure I would consider going that far.

 

[mikeymikec]

We've lost a good PM in Cameron, it's a shame.

I suppose there might have been good PM material hiding somewhere in Cameron, but I don't remember ever seeing any sign of it.

 

[RichUK]

Less worse than other right wing nutjobs? For sure.

Good? Not sure I would consider going that far.

The former better represents my beliefs.

 

[agent00f]

It's sour grapes from the folks that wanted to stay, and it's being driven by a media blitz that uses all of the key words: Chaos, disaster, panic, ignorance, and the number one all time greatest mover and shaker, RACISM. FUD by any other name.

Frankly that accurately describes the average dummy relative to the elites, meaning the former is open to easy manipulation by the latter; that's a very good reason to avoid direct democracy.

Hopefully Theresa May can steer us back into the EU and sort out this mess.

BoJo comes across a maverick and volatile, so glad he bowed out. Gove is just a numpty and looks like Peewee Herman.

We've lost a good PM in Cameron, it's a shame.

No, IMO this Gove guy looks clever, though honestly I don't know/care enough about english political intrigue to figure him.

 

[norseamd]

The former better represents my beliefs.

He definitely seems far less worse than American, Canadian, and Australian conservatives, and I had thought the same of the Tories as well until this shitshow.

At least Cameron supports climate change, basic LGBT rights, and state healthcare.

 

[mikeymikec]

At least Cameron supports climate change, basic LGBT rights, and state healthcare.

There is that, but to be frank that's a pretty low bar for just general human decency IMO.

 

[werepossum]

"Leavers" really?
I find the idea that they voted for something they didn't really want absurd. If the Brits are that stupid they were doomed to fail under any circumstances.
I'd also note that trade deals aren't a one way proposition, if the EU decides to punish the UK, they will also be punishing themselves. They may very well do that because they want their membership to understand that leaving will have undesirable consequences. But they also have their own problems and a trade war with the UK would be very bad for both.

At least as we watch democracy leave the planet, we can take comfort that people are now too stupid to deserve it. Nope, we must have unaccountable, unelected bureaucrats deciding what is best for us. And if they and their friends get massively wealthy along the way, why, that's just peanuts in the overall scheme of things. As long as the "Leavers" and the "Deniers" don't get to vote on anything that would disturb the elite, why begrudge them their massive wealth while we busily decry people who actually did something useful to earn their own wealth?

 

[Greenman]

Then maybe stop with your own?

If the President of the US abruptly resigned, and the VP from his own party refused the office as well, while the dollar plummeted in value and several major corporations and banks considered leaving the US even as incidences of unprovoked attacks on foreigners soared, while the leader of the US party not in power was formally and publicly rejected by ~ 80% of his party's legislators, yeah, no chaos there, eh?

Let's throw in several states and entire regions now wanting to secede and the credit rating of the US government being downgraded. Right, nothing to see here. No chaos at all! Why, it's mere mention would be nothing but "propaganda" in your eyes, right?

There is none so blind as he who refuses to see.

The pound has lost about 14% of it's value as of today. It will most likely rebound once everyone figures out that the sky isn't falling. Corporations and banks "considering" leaving isn't leaving, it's thinking about it. This isn't chaos, it's hype. No matter how it shakes out the UK will survive and maybe even prosper. The fear I keep reading about is that this is going to start a landslide of country's leaving the EU. Which makes no sense at all if the EU is a good thing to be a part of.
I think the British people have the right to choose their path, they made that choice. If it works out well, they chose wisely, if it doesn't they will pay a price, those things happen in a democracy, 51% of the people push the other 49% around.
I find the associated FUD far more alarming than the actual event. It's difficult to find information that has facts as opposed to speculation and fear mongering. I don't need drama, and I have no respect for it in the media. A simple format of who what where when and why is whats required. Speculation should follow the known facts.

 

[sandorski]

Brexit is like a bunch of drunk friends crammed in a speeding car and their designated driver friend just decides to jump out.

All this jumping ship is worse than Brexit itself.

 

[Greenman]

At least as we watch democracy leave the planet, we can take comfort that people are now too stupid to deserve it. Nope, we must have unaccountable, unelected bureaucrats deciding what is best for us. And if they and their friends get massively wealthy along the way, why, that's just peanuts in the overall scheme of things. As long as the "Leavers" and the "Deniers" don't get to vote on anything that would disturb the elite, why begrudge them their massive wealth while we busily decry people who actually did something useful to earn their own wealth?

We'll trade everything for the feeling of security, we'll sell our souls to have someone tell others what to do, and we'll never admit to ourselves that we've been fools.

 

[norseamd]

We'll trade everything for the feeling of security, we'll sell our souls to have someone tell others what to do, and we'll never admit to ourselves that we've been fools.

To be honest, I could care less if the British are or are not in the EU, I just think the way they are going about it is nothing but sheer carelessness and stupidity.

 

[K1052]

At least as we watch democracy leave the planet, we can take comfort that people are now too stupid to deserve it. Nope, we must have unaccountable, unelected bureaucrats deciding what is best for us. And if they and their friends get massively wealthy along the way, why, that's just peanuts in the overall scheme of things. As long as the "Leavers" and the "Deniers" don't get to vote on anything that eould disturb the elite, why begrudge them their massive wealth while we busily decry people who actually did something useful to earn their own wealth?

There are good arguments for reforming representative government but running into the arms of pure democracy as the cure is either foolhardy or irresponsibly naive.

 

[Blackjack200]

If it works out well, they chose wisely, if it doesn't they will pay a price, those things happen in a democracy, 51% of the people push the other 49% around.

And what if in 2018, after two years of negotiations to leave the EU, 51% of Brits want back in? Should they start all over and apply for membership? Do you realize how incredibly stupid it is to make a change of this magnitude because a slim majority are in favor?

How about presidents? Should we hold a new election every time the president's approval rating falls below 50%? It's a hell of a lot easier to change presidents than it is to leave an economic union.