Question To UG or not to UG

[Lenster45]

Currently have an 8700K oc'd to 4.9, 32G DDR4 3200, Gtx 1070, EK AIO 360 cooler
Only gaming I do is RPG games. But it's been 5 years and I have the itch
I was looking at a Z790 board with 13600K 0r 13700K DDR4 or DDR5 but the only BM's are for gaming.
All my HDs are M2 ssd so no gain there. 1070 is probable more than enough. Only time ram useage get close is running VM machines.
I don't think I would get much out of the UG.
Leaning toward waiting for Meteor lake next year.
Looking for input.

Len

 

[Markfw]

Currently have an 8700K oc'd to 4.9, 32G DDR4 3200, Gtx 1070, EK AIO 360 cooler
Only gaming I do is RPG games. But it's been 5 years and I have the itch
I was looking at a Z790 board with 13600K 0r 13700K DDR4 or DDR5 but the only BM's are for gaming.
All my HDs are M2 ssd so no gain there. 1070 is probable more than enough. Only time ram useage get close is running VM machines.
I don't think I would get much out of the UG.
Leaning toward waiting for Meteor lake next year.
Looking for input.

Len

No AMD love ? The 7000 series x3d series is coming out soon.

 

[Tech Junky]

Leaning toward waiting for Meteor lake next year.

Arrow Lake is the better upgrade to wait for.

Right now save the $$$ on RAM and go DDR4 since the RAM and board will be cheaper.

Right now the upgrade path is in flux though for MTL / ARL with Intel pushing the release dates and doing an RPL refresh next fall for some reason instead of MTL.

Otherwise if you want to scratch the itch just go ADL as the only perk to RPL is some extra E cores which doesn't do much for most intensive apps.

 

[Snakexor]

If you have ddr4 and need to buy a new board, go 5800x3d or raptorlake ddr4.

I have heard from MLID that arrowlake is not really too much of an upgrade from meteorlake as it is a mobile design with limited cores used on desktop. In addition, MLID is saying that timing for intels release could be deep into 2024 for Arrowlake.

If you are waiting for meteorlake then plan to upgrade with new ddr5 ram as well...

 

[Tech Junky]

MTL is a stepping stone to chiplets but, ARL is the major overhaul to a smaller fab. Both are the new chiplets format. Since both are 12+ months out the info is murky as to the core but, the hunch is MTL will drop to 6P cores and up the E core count kind of like 10/11 hen wasn't anything major in terms of tech. I would skip MTL based on what's our for info right now.

AMD has a convincing argument though but, the overall platform cost for 7 series is way to much right now in comparison to Intel.

 

[Markfw]

MTL is a stepping stone to chiplets but, ARL is the major overhaul to a smaller fab. Both are the new chiplets format. Since both are 12+ months out the info is murky as to the core but, the hunch is MTL will drop to 6P cores and up the E core count kind of like 10/11 hen wasn't anything major in terms of tech. I would skip MTL based on what's our for info right now.

AMD has a convincing argument though but, the overall platform cost for 7 series is way to much right now in comparison to Intel.

I won't argue that point... BUT the Intel platform is a dead end, especially with DDR4. So, bite the bullet now or the next upgrade. And if he waits for 7xxxx3d, it might be a absolutely killer upgrade for any gamer. I will also grant you that if he is a casual gamer, the 13700k or the 13600k with DDR4 is a good "cheap" gamer platform, if you don't mind no upgrades ever.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Meteor Lake may not even have a significant desktop presence. If you want Raptor Lake, go for it. It'll be a nice upgrade over your existing Coffee Lake CPU. Arrow Lake is a 2024 product. You will be waiting a long time for that.

 

[Tech Junky]

@Markfw

Intel offers both DDR4 & 5 options but, until the price comes down on the boards / CPU it makes sense to just go DDR4 for the time being. No one has a certain answer on anything beyond RPL at this point other than it won't show up fall '23 as expected.

Rumor is there's some rejigging of the formula behind the curtain right now causing Intel to release a RPL refresh instead of MTL at this point. Now, whether it's a lockdown issue for production or a tech hurdle they ran into isn't too obvious right now.

DDR5 has come down in price though from launch last fall but, it's still a 40-50% premium over DDR4 and it doesn't offer any improvement in performance at this point until other components of a build catch up and make full use of it.

AMD for whatever reason seems to want more for less performance though when you compare the 7 series with the RPL lineup. Not many people will go for the I9/139xx chips though because they're stupid priced for ~10% gains. Mostly for morons with too much money to know what to do with it.

If OP needs more performance post upgrade the obvious issue will be replacing the 1070 with something a bit more recent. On the other hand though replacing the GPU now with something a bit more recent and holding off on the overhaul might make more sense. Nothing wrong with the 8700K at all as I was using one up until ADL launched. Still works great but, I like to play with new tech and rebuilt the system from the ground up to sell the 8700K setup.

It doesn't sound like there's an immediate need to UG in the OP though. Waiting for MTL will likely be 2024 though with the stoppage Intel is showing right now with roadmaps being updated to push its release from the normal cadence.

 

[Lenster45]

Thanks for the input. I think I might wait for rumors on RPL refresh to be fleshed out and if not much is there, go with 13700 and bight the bullet on DDR5. I understand all the acronyms, but what is ADL?

 

[Lenster45]

Never mind. I figured it out .Alder lake

 

[Kaluan]

AMD has a convincing argument though but, the overall platform cost for 7 series is way to much right now in comparison to Intel.

If he's willing to go Z790 and DDR5, I can assure you that platform price argument vanishes.

 

[coercitiv]

All my HDs are M2 ssd so no gain there.

As someone who has upgraded from i7 8700 to i7 12700K, I can tell you there will be gains in terms of storage speed if your SSDs are fast enough. At the time of the upgrade I was using a Samsung 980 Pro, in terms of 4K I/O the new system saw 50%+ higher speeds. Sequential speed went up as well, but that was to be expected and definitely not as important to me as random I/O speed that can be felt even during common usage. You can check my old post for a quick benchmark.

As far as gaming is concerned, the 1070 will be your limiting factor. If you don't intend to upgrade your GPU anytime soon, the 8700K will do just fine for now, and you can do the upgrade anytime from now on.

All that being said, if you do any real work on this machine, if those VMs could use more muscle, consider the upgrade for professional reasons. Otherwise, perform the upgrade once you get a new gen GPU.

 

[Lenster45]

Your post pushed me off the edge. I have 4 M2 ssds. 2Tb 980 pro, 2(1tb) Patriot Viper and 1 .5TB 970 EVO. My gaming is almost non existent just things like Civ VI so I think the 1070 is ok for a while.
I have been a big ASROCK fan so I will go with an ASROCK Z790 Steel Legend, 64G of G Skill F5-5600 and the I7 13700K. I was only a little concerned that the difference would not be that great since the 8700K/Z370 Taichi was oc'd to 4.9, but I could always tweak the RPL a little. Probably wait till spring.
BTW. This is a great forum. Glad I found it.

 

[igor_kavinski]

I have been a big ASROCK fan so I will go with an ASROCK Z790 Steel Legend, 64G of G Skill F5-5600 and the I7 13700K.

If you are a regular multitasker (multiple programs/VMs running together), Ryzen 7950X3D may be a better option that you may be able to get by April-2023. The extra cache will also help the responsiveness of the system, plus it will give your Geforce 1070 a new lease on life.

My only issue with 13700K is that you will leave considerable multicore performance on the table by going with slower DDR5 because Intel has made a really bandwidth hungry monster that loves to eat data. With 7950X3D, the V-cache will hide the latency of slow RAM quite effectively. But of course, it's up to you to decide between the pros and cons of both platforms for your usage scenarios.

 

[igor_kavinski]

My gaming is almost non existent just things like Civ VI

Intel i9-13900K & i5-13600K review: Let the CPU battle begin | Digital Trends

Intel isn't shooting to the top of the performance charts with the Core i9-13900K and Core i5-13600K, but it doesn't need to with the value these CPUs offer.

www.digitaltrends.com

7950X is slightly behind 13900K. But look how much better 5800X3D is compared to 12900K. That should tell you that a 7950X3D will become the leader in this game when it's released.

 

[Tech Junky]

7950X is slightly behind 13900K. But look how much better 5800X3D is compared to 12900K. That should tell you that a 7950X3D will become the leader in this game when it's released.

Turn times are not all CPU. Going from a GTX1650 to RTX3060 made a bigger difference in the time it takes to load and turn speed compared to just the CPU alone. The CPU isn't taxed after the initial game loads into the GPU RAM. Most of the functions happen in the GPU. The CPU will sit under 60% utilization with background apps running and the game running as well. Also, who knows how many turns into the game they're testing with here because the more loaded the game gets with players expanding scenes the slower it gets as there are more calculations being done in the background.

 

[igor_kavinski]

Also, who knows how many turns into the game they're testing with here because the more loaded the game gets with players expanding scenes the slower it gets as there are more calculations being done in the background.

Fair point.

 

[Tech Junky]

When it's a fresh game turns are split second but, when you load it up to a mature scenario it does take a few seconds even with a good CPU/GPU/RAM to get it to progress.

 

[lopri]

13700K is a good choice. It clocks to 5.3~5.4 GHz in lightly threaded apps, and it comes with bazillion little cores for total 16 cores. I mean, what are the chances Intel will release a significantly higher clock speed in the next few years? (KS, yes I am aware) And it's hard to see them giving you moar cores, either. And there are lots of motherboards to choose from. Its upgrade path will be limited, but so what, it'll have a long life.

Intel® Core™ i7-13700K Processor (30M Cache, up to 5.40 GHz) Compatible Products | Intel

Intel® Core™ i7-13700K Processor (30M Cache, up to 5.40 GHz) - Compatible products.

www.intel.com

 

[Carfax83]

Turn times are not all CPU. Going from a GTX1650 to RTX3060 made a bigger difference in the time it takes to load and turn speed compared to just the CPU alone. The CPU isn't taxed after the initial game loads into the GPU RAM. Most of the functions happen in the GPU. The CPU will sit under 60% utilization with background apps running and the game running as well. Also, who knows how many turns into the game they're testing with here because the more loaded the game gets with players expanding scenes the slower it gets as there are more calculations being done in the background.

That review also used an RTX 3090 which is definitely a bottleneck for Raptor Lake under normal gaming circumstances. I don't know if it would be for a game like Civilization VI though.

 

[Tech Junky]

@lopri I think clock speeds are tapering off with the intent to put more cores onto the die instead as a multiplier. The speeds don't really need to be any higher than 5Ghz. Looking at the server side there are CPU setups with 100+ cores. It just depends on what customers want and what Intel / AMD decide to do. For AMD it's about adding more RAM to the CPU. Both are moving to chiplet designs which will open some doors to moving things around on the die of the same size to get more performance out of them.

@igor_kavinski Well, I juts updated W11 to 22H2 and see a big difference with the new core build vs the 22000 series. The underlying code improvement keep things cooler and thus runs faster than before. When it comes to GPU's though 3090 vs 3060 not much difference other than price and the amount of RAM on the board. I don't think there's really a bottleneck at this point with newer systems that have a Gen4 slot for them since there aren't any Gen5 cards at this point.