To those who own guns. What's the attraction?

[RocksteadyDotNet]

So the foundation of the United States wasn't a good thing? How did we fight and win independence from the British...with words and kind acts? I suppose Nazi Germany would have just went away. You think terrorism isn't a good example?

Yes, guns kill with the assistance of a trigger pulling human being. Guns like any other mechanical device are tools that unfortunately are used from time to time in history...sometimes for good/sometimes for bad.

The meaning of the second amendment of the Constitution of the United States remains valid to this day.

"the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed"

What's so damn confusing about that?

So everyone should be able to own a nuke? Or a SAM?

Define 'arms'?

 

[Angry Irishman]

On what stone tablet does it say you have a right to defend yourself with lethal force? By what rationality do you find lethal force even necessary, ever?

Easy, when someone is trying to fucking kill me.

Oh, that armed crack head burglar probably won't kill my family if I just reason with him....

I do have a right to defend myself/my family. That's a God given right.

 

[Angry Irishman]

So everyone should be able to own a nuke? Or a SAM?

Define 'arms'?

Not getting pulled into this argument...you've already defined arms as no one can have a pistol let alone a nuke.

Why is there still violent crime in Australia and why do the police carry weapons?

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Not getting pulled into this argument...you've already defined arms as no one can have a pistol let alone a nuke.

Why is there still violent crime in Australia and why do the police carry weapons?

Wow, way to deflect mate.

 

[Locut0s]

For those who argue from the point of view of protection from external forces, or government. What about countries that do not have high gun ownership or have very strict gun laws and yet are not overrun by other militaries or their own governments. Who still maintain open democracies.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Not getting pulled into this argument...you've already defined arms as no one can have a pistol let alone a nuke.

Why is there still violent crime in Australia and why do the police carry weapons?

U.S - 5.5 murders per 100000
Australia - 1.5 murders per 100000

Mmm. That a serious difference.

Less that half of your murder rate.

 

[Angry Irishman]

Wow, way to deflect mate.

Look, I don't even own a gun. That said I firmly believe in the right of American citizens to own firearms. My definition is firearms not tactical nuclear weapons. Common sense should prevail here.

you bring the other end of the spectrum to the discussion of which you know there is no correct answer.

I take it you don't support civilians with weapons of any sort?

 

[Angry Irishman]

U.S - 5.5 murders per 100000
Australia - 1.5 murders per 100000

Mmm. That a serious difference.

Less that half of your murder rate.

Apples to oranges....not even a close comparison.

I've been to Australia and it is comparatively not very ethnically mixed or maintains the same dynamic or population of the united states.

Why do police carry weapons?

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Look, I don't even own a gun. That said I firmly believe in the right of American citizens to own firearms. My definition is firearms not tactical nuclear weapons. Common sense should prevail here.

you bring the other end of the spectrum to the discussion of which you know there is no correct answer.

I take it you don't support civilians with weapons of any sort?

If you had read my post before going nuts you would have seen that I said it was too late to change the gun laws in the states.

I don't believe for a second that you should change the laws in the states, or that it would make any difference if you did.

But here, no one has guns, including criminals. If you think we should change our laws then you're a fuckin idiot.

To answer you question, yeah, if you want to protect you family to should be able to buy a shotgun. This handgun shit is what has fucked your whole country. And dont even get me started the assalt rifes. What the fuck do you need with an AR-15?

 

[Angry Irishman]

For those who argue from the point of view of protection from external forces, or government. What about countries that do not have high gun ownership or have very strict gun laws and yet are not overrun by other militaries or their own governments. Who still maintain open democracies.

Britain is a great example of...increasing crime rates although owning even a hand gun is illegal. All of Europe and Canada are experiencing increased crime with even more governmental control as a result. Britain is considering arming their police force.

Crime is going to happen whether citizens own weapons or not. I'd rather have an option to defend myself given the choice. It just so happens that as an American I also have that RIGHT.

Most is due to immigration into countries that traditionally haven't welcomed those from other cultures.

Examples: Belgium, Denmark, Norway, France....should I go on?

 

[Angry Irishman]

If you had read my post before going nuts you would have seen that I said it was too late to change the gun laws in the states.

I don't believe for a second that you should change the laws in the states, or that it would make any difference if you did.

But here, no one has guns, including criminals. If you think we should change our laws then you're a fuckin idiot.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/national/sydney-gun-crimes-double/2006/08/30/1156816939675.html
maybe this will be of some assistance:

Well, I'm trying to have a discussion and now I'm an idiot. If you think criminals don't have guns in Australia then I'm afraid you're a fuckin idiot.

Again if it's a Utopia why do the Aussie police carry firearms?

Look to England for an example of what's to come for Australia.

 

[RocksteadyDotNet]

Well, I'm trying to have a discussion and now I'm an idiot. If you think criminals don't have guns in Australia then I'm afraid you're a fuckin idiot.

Again if it's a Utopia why do the Aussie police carry firearms?

Look to England for an example of what's to come for Australia.

Ok, sorry for the idiot comment.

Criminals dont have guns because they're fucking hard to come by. They can't steal them from peoples homes, because: No one owns a gun!

A 9mm or something would probably cost 2-3k on the street. What junky can afford that?

The only crims that own them are organized crims, and they don't bother civilians.

Why do cops need guns? Tradition? Normally they shoot people who come at them with knifes.

 

[Kirby]

For those who argue from the point of view of protection from external forces, or government. What about countries that do not have high gun ownership or have very strict gun laws and yet are not overrun by other militaries or their own governments. Who still maintain open democracies.

If you look just in the last 50 years I can see how you'd come to that conclusion, but over the scope of civilization it becomes outright inevitable.

 

[Skitzer]

I have no desire to own one until the zombies start coming after me ^_^
Cheers,
Aquaman

By then it will be too late.

 

[BarkingGhostar]

I realize that this is sensitive ground and I don't mean to start a flame war, though perhaps one is inevitable for a topic like this. Anyway I'd seriously like to know, no politics, no agenda, no slant intended. As someone who has grown up in a household that is gunless and has no interest in them I'm curious. What is the attraction for you?

The same question can be asked about computers as I grew up in a household without them. Same thing for a lot of other things, too.

 

[FallenHero]

Ok, sorry for the idiot comment.

Criminals dont have guns because they're fucking hard to come by. They can't steal them from peoples homes, because: No one owns a gun!

A 9mm or something would probably cost 2-3k on the street. What junky can afford that?

The only crims that own them are organized crims, and they don't bother civilians.

Why do cops need guns? Tradition? Normally they shoot people who come at them with knifes.

How do you propose police deal with people coming at them with deadly weapons? Just curious.

How would you? Use your kung-fu skills?

 

[Locut0s]

The same question can be asked about computers as I grew up in a household without them. Same thing for a lot of other things, too.

Computers, stamp collections and comic books aren't massively polarizing the way guns are.

 

[boomerang]

Keeping in mind that there truly are bad people in the world, if someone broke into your home and was raping your mother Locut0s, what would you do? Share your thoughts both with you unarmed and armed.

 

[boomhower]

Why do I own guns? Work, protection of my household, and sport. Strict handgun laws that removed them circulation would make my job easier and safer, do I support that? Hell no. To me the gun laws are fine the way they are except in states that don't allow conceal carry but that's a whole other issue.

 

[Locut0s]

Keeping in mind that there truly are bad people in the world, if someone broke into your home and was raping your mother Locut0s, what would you do? Share your thoughts both with you unarmed and armed.

The killing of the intruder via using a gun would indeed at first blush seem to be a very cathartic and pleasing experience. However I very much think that killing the intruder be it either with a gun or not while it would feel like I'd saved the family it would also be a horrible experience in and of itself. Both the rape that you mention AND the killing of the intruder at my hands would weigh heavily on me the rest of my life. In such a situation I have no doubt that I would seak out the closest heavy object and attempt to hit the intruder over the head with it, possibly killing him. IF I had a gun I also don't doubt that I would fire it killing the intruder that way. But neither one would make me feel any better in any way.

Perhaps a better question would be why should one live in fear of such an outcome in the first place. I have no doubt that it could happen here but I can't honestly say that I nor anyone that I have met in my daily interactions even gives a 2nd thought to this outcome. It's not like it doesn't happen sure but I've never felt the need to worry about it one way or the other. And neither do any of the people that I know here.

 

[boomerang]

The killing of the intruder via using a gun would indeed at first blush seem to be a very cathartic and pleasing experience. However I very much think that killing the intruder be it either with a gun or not while it would feel like I'd saved the family it would also be a horrible experience in and of itself. Both the rape that you mention AND the killing of the intruder at my hands would weigh heavily on me the rest of my life. In such a situation I have no doubt that I would seak out the closest heavy object and attempt to hit the intruder over the head with it, possibly killing him. IF I had a gun I also don't doubt that I would fire it killing the intruder that way. But neither one would make me feel any better in any way.

Perhaps a better question would be why should one live in fear of such an outcome in the first place. I have no doubt that it could happen here but I can't honestly say that I nor anyone that I have met in my daily interactions even gives a 2nd thought to this outcome. It's not like it doesn't happen sure but I've never felt the need to worry about it one way or the other. And neither do any of the people that I know here.

Your option to kill is one of last resort. Let's look at this a little differently.

You could demand that the intruder stop what he was doing by asking him nicely or you could demand that he stop under the threat of shooting him. Which do you think he'd respond to in the manner you desired? A gun is a deterrent. It does not necessarily have to be used.

Not jumping in your shit now, but you've got your emotions all tied up in what is your right to defend yourself, your family and your home. In the states, so far, we still have those rights. That is why many of us are armed. There truly are bad people in this world. I have only to watch the news, read the paper or peruse the internet to have it affirmed each and every day.

In your second paragraph you are second guessing why you'd even need to do what you said you'd do in the first paragraph. The second paragraph is irrelevant to the discussion. That's your emotions coming into play. The scenario I laid out is one of what is the best means of defense against a bad person.

Your feelings of guilt and remorse over shooting the bad guy are totally normal IMO. Taking the life of another is never something to be taken lightly or brushed off as if it was nothing. Few would not second guess themselves and many would do so for the rest of their lives.

So anyway, to answer your original question the attraction for me is being able to defend myself. I never felt the need to own firearms for the first 53 years of my life. It took that long for me to come to the conclusion that the only one truly looking out for me was myself and that I was the only one I could truly count on. I don't have to use it, I don't want to use it, but if push comes to shove, I will choose my life over the life of whatever antagonist is before me.

Self preservation is hard-wired into each of us. You've expressed it yourself.

Locut0s I do like the way you have presented this. You come across as genuine and without a hidden agenda.

 

[ForumMaster]

I live in Israel. In Israel, military service is compulsory. You often can't go on a bus or a train without seeing a soldier carrying a gun (M-16 or Tavor).

And yes, soldiers take their weapons home. They are required by military law to always lock them behind two locks.

Outside of the military for regular citizens, it is extremely hard to get a weapons permit in Israel. I suppose we have enough violence here as is...

Police here of course are armed. No idea of the stats for home invasion in israel, or home invasions that were stopped because of soldiers that were home and "protected their family".

 

[DrPizza]

Because slingshots aren't effective for filling my freezer with venison??

 

[Slapstick]

U.S - 5.5 murders per 100000
Australia - 1.5 murders per 100000

Mmm. That a serious difference.

Less that half of your murder rate.

If you look at the most recent FBI stats http://www2.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2009/offenses/expanded_information/data/shrtable_02.html you see that half the murders are done by only 13.9 percent of the population. When you pull out that minority group then the US murder rate is comparable. It's a dirty little secret that on one wants to talk about because it's not "Politically Correct" to do so in this country and unfortunately no solution will ever be found until it is addressed.

 

[Fritzo]

maybe, but that seems so fucking strange to me. i got a gun (20 ga.) from santa when i was 7 i think. :biggrin:

My son is turning 11 and we don't want him to get a BB gun!

We're another "never had guns in the house" family. We do now, but just because my wife was in law enforcement. I don't think they've seen the light of day in 5 years though.