To those saying there isn't a big gear gap in WoW and that it doesn't make a difference in PvP...

[CKent]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8275932535874268654&q=shaman

When you're done with the :shocked: (take your time), think about this - my shaman alt, also 33/0/18, who wears all blues aside from 3 buyable epics (beasts card, skullflame shield, hide of the wild) - many of which blues have +damage on them, has gotten an alltime high of 1470ish on a chain lightning crit (barring the buff in AV which can bump it up to almost 1700 that I've seen).

And it's also a pretty cool video


Update: Was surfing the official forums & found this thread - I didn't post it, though I did reply.

 

[notfred]

I nominate this for the "nerdiest post ever" awards.

 

[Schadenfroh]

FROST SHOCK

 

[Fingolfin269]

Woo, thanks for the additional ammo to prove to my buddies why I quit that POS.

 

[Maximilian]

My guy does ten quadrillion damage and can fly in space!

 

[Joemonkey]

holy freaking crap, i need to play my shaman more and respec

 

[BigPoppa]

What type of resist do most people not wear? What type of spells are binary?

Scorpion...WIN.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Topic Title: To those saying there isn't a big gear gap in WoW and that it doesn't make a difference in PvP...

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8275932535874268654&q=shaman

Ah, but in discussing this very topic in another thread, whereby I argued that our blue-geared guild could hold our own in BGs against the most epic-geared Horde guild on our server, a non-so-wise man once said:

Originally posted by: RBachman
When you fall back on anecdotes you've lost. GG.

But yet somehow, this video of unknown origin and under unknown circumstances now *proves* something?

Silly Gurck.

 

[Acanthus]

and that video, is why i no longer play world of warcraft.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Acanthus
and that video, is why i no longer play world of warcraft.

Meh, that video is why I don't play on a PvP server.

 

[Anubis]

all tha proves is my statement that shamans are overpowered, they are at nearly every level. and when they have epics it just gets insane. im on a PVP server and can take just about anyone 1 on 1 with my rogue, jump or not provided they arnt more then 5 levs above me, but freeking shamans are a pain, almost as annoying as mages who frost nova and then blink

 

[skace]

The comments about no gap date back to the days of tier 1 to blue set comparisons. Which really had trivial improvements and sometimes at the loss of more important stats.

 

[Smilin]

My rogue can pull 2k crits with eviscerate but this value will never really increase no matter what my gear. Now that I'm into MC and whatnot it has become very obvious that gear powered classes are dominate. Rogues were balanced when the game first released but every patch has buffed other classes but not rogues. They have also introduced so much purple armor that our level based damage (caps at 60 of course) is no longer effective. Rogues at least, need a buff. Adding weapon damage into hit calculations would be a good start. That way at least a good purple dagger will offset the purple armor it is supposed to penetrate.

IMHO.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Smilin
My rogue can pull 2k crits with eviscerate but this value will never really increase no matter what my gear. Now that I'm into MC and whatnot it has become very obvious that gear powered classes are dominate. Rogues were balanced when the game first released but every patch has buffed other classes but not rogues. They have also introduced so much purple armor that our level based damage (caps at 60 of course) is no longer effective. Rogues at least, need a buff. Adding weapon damage into hit calculations would be a good start. That way at least a good purple dagger will offset the purple armor it is supposed to penetrate.

IMHO.

If you are talking about PvE, then I agree that Rogues seems to have been nerfed down from the top of the DPS charts. In our runs, it's usually a Arms/Fury Warrior or a Shadow Priest in the top positions, followed by Mages. Rogues and Hunters are usually pretty close in the next spots.

In PvP, however, the disappearing, detect/disarm traps, stunlock, etc abilities of Rogues still makes them pretty powerful. I know my Hunter main still considers Rogues to be her mortal enemy, at least in BGs.

 

[Smilin]

Stealth in PvP is crap anymore.

The hunter flare is an excellent example. Not a bad thing for a hunter to have mind you it's just that why is a bright light that reaveals all somehow completely invisible to me so that I can't stay away from it??? oooohh magical light oooohhh wtf I say.

nutty.

A warrior shout pulling someone out of stealth?? Give me a break.

Also a rogue can't just 'disappear' despite you having seen such a thing. Vanish is a five minute cooldown and so utterly bugged that it can only be used for offense (vanish then immediately take a new opening move) but no defense.

Any dot will prevent vanish, a hunters mark will prevent vanish. Heck simply being in combat (crossed swords by icon) prevents stealth.

Stunlocks are a myth too. Doing a cheapshot, gouge, kidneyshot in some form or another completely burns your energy so once the stuns are up that's pretty much it. We can get a good amount of damage in during a round of stuns but afterwards we're standing there:
1. In melee
2. Wearing leather (in melee I remind you).
3. No energy for stuns or high damage attacks
4. Unable to stealth.
So yeah we start to hand someone their ass but then are unable to finish the job. This is by design and I'm not really griping about it. My point is just that stunlocks are a myth.


The gear thing is really what sucks. Rogues used to rock for PvP but we've fallen so far I don't do it much anymore. A good player can hold their own but not really dominate anyone else with equal gear.

 

[Powermoloch]

Diablo 2 rocks

 

[thawolfman]

video's far too long but f^$k :Q

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: Smilin
Stealth in PvP is crap anymore.

The hunter flare is an excellent example. Not a bad thing for a hunter to have mind you it's just that why is a bright light that reaveals all somehow completely invisible to me so that I can't stay away from it??? oooohh magical light oooohhh wtf I say.

nutty.

A warrior shout pulling someone out of stealth?? Give me a break.

Also a rogue can't just 'disappear' despite you having seen such a thing. Vanish is a five minute cooldown and so utterly bugged that it can only be used for offense (vanish then immediately take a new opening move) but no defense.

Any dot will prevent vanish, a hunters mark will prevent vanish. Heck simply being in combat (crossed swords by icon) prevents stealth.

Stunlocks are a myth too. Doing a cheapshot, gouge, kidneyshot in some form or another completely burns your energy so once the stuns are up that's pretty much it. We can get a good amount of damage in during a round of stuns but afterwards we're standing there:
1. In melee
2. Wearing leather (in melee I remind you).
3. No energy for stuns or high damage attacks
4. Unable to stealth.
So yeah we start to hand someone their ass but then are unable to finish the job. This is by design and I'm not really griping about it. My point is just that stunlocks are a myth.


The gear thing is really what sucks. Rogues used to rock for PvP but we've fallen so far I don't do it much anymore. A good player can hold their own but not really dominate anyone else with equal gear.

?? I never claimed to have seen such thing as a rogue "vanish." In fact, I never mentioned "vanish" at all. I was talking about the ability, on approach, to stealth or whatever the move is, then pop up behind someone and knife them. It's not over-powered at all, as there are ways to prevent it. Same thing with my "feign + trap." It's a nifty move if you pull it off, but it is easily counterable by DOTs, etc.

And no, in "melee" you are not exactly helpless, unless you decided to melee a warrior in plate (which is probalby a poor idea, if you are traveling alone.) Mages, priests, warlocks, hunters, etc are all considerably weaker than you in had-to-hand combat. If you managed to get the drop on one of these classes and ran through your front-end DPS combo points, you still have the ability to finish them with melee attacks once they are un-stunned. I don't think my Hunter's 96 strength with dual-wielded axes, standing there at 30% health is going to intimate any decent rogue.

You can hold your own but not "dominate anyone else with equal gear?" Well join the club! It's called balance. You shouldn't be able to dominate anyone. You should be able to gain a tactical advantage by using your class abilities to get the drop on someone, but not dominate anyone and everyone you run across. That would be pointless and boring.

The only thing sillier than a Rogue complaing about having to melee in leather, is a Hunter complaining about having a dead zone. It's an inherent, designed weakness meant to be exploited by other classes, not an oversight or bug that is accidentally preventing you from being all-powerful.

 

[CKent]

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger

Originally posted by: RBachman
When you fall back on anecdotes you've lost. GG.

But yet somehow, this video of unknown origin and under unknown circumstances now *proves* something?

We're talking apples & oranges here, you're saying gear doesn't matter in battlegrounds because you know some guy who wins in BGs wearing blues. I'm saying there's a huge gear gap which can result in 3700 vs. 1500 crits, which in turn is huge in PvP and will win given the same amount of skill - and providing video proof.

For the record with just my blues and 1500 crits my shaman kicks butt in BGs. It doesn't mean better gear wouldn't make it easier or that PvP is fair & balanced between the haves & have-nots. My rogue who's mainhanding ggr kicks a lot more butt in BGs.

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
If you are talking about PvE, then I agree that Rogues seems to have been nerfed down from the top of the DPS charts. In our runs, it's usually a Arms/Fury Warrior or a Shadow Priest in the top positions, followed by Mages. Rogues and Hunters are usually pretty close in the next spots.

My guild is seeing the same thing. Whereas the rogues used to top the charts far and away, we're now barely above other classes, as we gear up and their damage scales with gear while ours really doesn't. Last night the two ggr rogues topped it, followed by a warlock, mage, hunter, then the other 2 rogues on the run. The poster who claimed that rogues are underpowered is right, but the claim that we're this way because other classes have received buffs while we haven't is patently false. Patch after patch has included a large rogue nerf and a few stealth ones just to be on the safe side.

In PvP, however, the disappearing, detect/disarm traps, stunlock, etc abilities of Rogues still makes them pretty powerful. I know my Hunter main still considers Rogues to be her mortal enemy, at least in BGs.

That's probably becuase hunters get singled out. When on my shaman, I go for you guys first. On my rogue, you're right behind clothies on my priority list. Hunters always top the killing blow charts in BGs and, imo, are ridiculously overpowered, with incredible damage, high damage vs. multiple targets, aimed shot (especially annoying with night elves) and of course a ton of utility; snares, ss, fd, etc. 1v1 there's probably no class a hunter has an easier time with than rogues. If you check out the rogue forum you'll see what I mean

 

[abaez]

It makes a huge difference in regular pug battlegrounds. A mediocore team in epics versus a mediocre team in blues will almost always win. A good, organized group in blues will do very well against any team epics or not.

Mages/Warlocks with both the ToEP and the hakkar trinket are insane, case in point:
dead

 

[Litchfield285]

I'm so tired of Rogues saying they need this and that in terms of buffs for the class. The Rogue class is easily the most balanced class in the game.

 

[Zbox]

my chain lightning hits harder

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: RBachman

Originally posted by: cKGunslinger
In PvP, however, the disappearing, detect/disarm traps, stunlock, etc abilities of Rogues still makes them pretty powerful. I know my Hunter main still considers Rogues to be her mortal enemy, at least in BGs.

That's probably becuase hunters get singled out. When on my shaman, I go for you guys first. On my rogue, you're right behind clothies on my priority list. Hunters always top the killing blow charts in BGs and, imo, are ridiculously overpowered, with incredible damage, high damage vs. multiple targets, aimed shot (especially annoying with night elves) and of course a ton of utility; snares, ss, fd, etc. 1v1 there's probably no class a hunter has an easier time with than rogues. If you check out the rogue forum you'll see what I mean

LOL - I don't have to check the Rogue Forums, because we always get a lvl 1 Rogue stopping by the Hunter forums crying about something or another on a daily basis. (I'm sure the opposite happens as well.) But in the Hunter forums, you'll also see that Rogues are pretty high on the "OMG! How can I beat them 1vs1!" list. (Actually, Warriors used to be number one, but we all agree they were impossible, so we just stopped trying. )

I do admit, Hunters got quite a bit of lovin' in a patch a few months ago, and they haven't been toned back down to normal quite yet. That said, it's even harder being a Hunter in PvP situations, because of our new-found rep. Like you said, I now find myself near the top of the "take out" list, whereas I used to be able leisurely sit back and plink away at the squishes and remain ignored. I'm not complaining, as BGs are actually fun, if not exhausting, now.

Are you sure rogues aren't just feeling the same thing in PvP? I know when there's an incoming group, I drop a trap and begin hitting tab until I see "Class: Rogue" in the middle of my screen (if I come across a caster first, I'll send my pet after it while I keep looking.) I suck at dueling, but even a rogue 3-5 levels below me can eat my lunch if he's better-than-average.

 

[ggnl]

I can't watch the video at work What does it show?

Im guessing it either a warlock doing 4k shadowbolt crits, a trinket mage 1 shotting people, or a warrior doing...well pretty much everything warriors do is impressive once they get all epic gear.

 

[cKGunslinger]

Originally posted by: ggnl
I can't watch the video at work What does it show?

Im guessing it either a warlock doing 4k shadowbolt crits, a trinket mage 1 shotting people, or a warrior doing...well pretty much everything warriors do is impressive once they get all epic gear.

Shaman doing this chain lighting thing. Some 3-4 crits, mostly 1.5-2k. All against preoccupied players (world PvP) or while in a group (BGs) with support. Heavily mixed and edited to only show crits.

ZOMG! Nerf MovieMaker! :laugh: