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To Meddle or Not to Meddle - interesting commentary on Iran
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RyanPaulShaffer
Diamond Member
😕
World War II?
Patranus
Diamond Member
If people here would actually take the time to read Iranian blogs and message boards, the Iranian people are not asking for money, weapons, or even aid.
What the Iranian people want is for the leader of the free world to come out and denounce the violence and against the peaceful protesters. That is it. Just a simple "The killing of peaceful protesters in Iran is wrong" not this "we will wait and see" approach.
You want to know what someone wrote on an Iranian forum?
and a different poster
and another poster
Another way that Obama could take sides without taking sides would be to come out and support a new election under international supervision. Then he could go on to say that the USA would be willing to provide the UN with what ever resources necessary to achieve this new election if requested. Finally if he invited workers from BOTH parties in Iran to work aside the UN observers than he is not taking ANY sides, supporting freedom and "meddling".
I think that the American people and President Obama think that the Iranian people are stupider than they really are....
What the Iranian people want is for the leader of the free world to come out and denounce the violence and against the peaceful protesters. That is it. Just a simple "The killing of peaceful protesters in Iran is wrong" not this "we will wait and see" approach.
You want to know what someone wrote on an Iranian forum?
and a different poster
and another poster
Another way that Obama could take sides without taking sides would be to come out and support a new election under international supervision. Then he could go on to say that the USA would be willing to provide the UN with what ever resources necessary to achieve this new election if requested. Finally if he invited workers from BOTH parties in Iran to work aside the UN observers than he is not taking ANY sides, supporting freedom and "meddling".
I think that the American people and President Obama think that the Iranian people are stupider than they really are....
Your post is confusing. I agree with your main point that our president should speak out on the issue and represent American values, but not with many of your other lesser points.
You might recall that we had our own wrongly awarded election in 2000, perhaps Iran could have offered to help us do it over with international supervision.
There's a lot of room for improvement in the situation in Iran. We just need to keep the right priorities and not use that to simply advance a selfish power grab agenda.
Lemon law
Lifer
We need to look at it from the Iranian perspective. No matter who ends up in power Iran will continue its nuclear ambitions. Be they just peaceful nuclear energy for the generation of electrical power or that other option, to then go on to develop nuclear weapons. As it is, Iran may be on the cusp of refining enough lowly enriched uranium for a
number of nuclear reactors, but the decision point of nuclear weapons or to forgo developing nuclear weapons is still years away despite what Israel bleats.
And if the USA can forge alliances with Iranian moderates, Iran will be less likely to perceive the USA as a threat to its security, and therefore less likely to want to develop nuclear weapons. A lesson entirely lost on Dick Cheney type stinking thinking. Because, in 2002 Iranian moderates tried to reach out to the USA, and Dick Cheney kicked them in the teeth, therefore discrediting Iranian moderates, and as a result we saw the election of Achmadinejad and a restarting of Iranian nuclear programs.
number of nuclear reactors, but the decision point of nuclear weapons or to forgo developing nuclear weapons is still years away despite what Israel bleats.
And if the USA can forge alliances with Iranian moderates, Iran will be less likely to perceive the USA as a threat to its security, and therefore less likely to want to develop nuclear weapons. A lesson entirely lost on Dick Cheney type stinking thinking. Because, in 2002 Iranian moderates tried to reach out to the USA, and Dick Cheney kicked them in the teeth, therefore discrediting Iranian moderates, and as a result we saw the election of Achmadinejad and a restarting of Iranian nuclear programs.
The system does not include kicking off tens of thousands of legitimate black voters ifrom the voting lists in Florida under Bush's brother, as was done, among many other problems.
That alone was one of the problems that made the election go to the wrong person. Another was the bigg difference in black and white precinvts, where whites had their invalid ballots returned to them to fix while blacks had their invalid ballots accepted by the machine and invalidated later. Yet another was the way Jeb Bush blocked thousands of legitimate voters from the ballots who had felony convicitions in other states and their right to vote restored - despite multiple court orders. There was more as well.
Patranus
Diamond Member
I don't think you want to complain about voter fraud. First of all, where is the "evidence" to substantiate your *claims*?
Secondly, have you ever heard of ACORN? Did you know that they are under indictment for voter fraud in more than 14 states and more states are expected to follow?
Sounds like it would be reasonable to stop funding this group with federal dollars rights? After all, being indicted in 14 states is a big deal right? And if ACORN has been indicted for voter registration fraud would it not be reasonable to say that ACORN cannot participate in the 2010 census?
Well, the Democrats stripped provisions from a bill recently that would cut off funding and bar ACORN from participating in the 2010 census.
Like I said before, there are FACTS against ACORN regarding voter fraud but there are not FACTS to substantiate your CLAIMS.
Enough? Ok...back on topic.
Fern
Elite Member
I've cautious and little ambilivent about what Obama should say. To a great extent I think we should stay out of it. However, Obama is expected to say something, and I think the above type remark would be fine.
All-in-all I think too much is made of 'talk', that it's mostly for show and accomplishes little or nothing as regards Iran. But I think an Obama remark supporting peaceful demonstrators, and denouncing violence against them is called for.
But I sure don't think high-powered rhetoric as suggested by some (McCain maybe? - actually I don't what he said because I pay little attention to him) is what we need be doing at this point.
Personally, I'm unsure that the elections were rigged. For Obama to make claims that they were is inappropriate because frankly we just don't know.
If the elections were fair/accurate, that should put to rest the oft heard claims that teh average "really likes the USA and wants the same kind of freedoms". I'm not sure I believe that either.
And last night I caught Henry Kissenger on TV, he was saying Mousavi is far from the liberal democrat that many in the West would like to believe. He felt Mousavi might be open to more domestic/socially liberal positions for Iranians, but no real difference in his relations with us etc. Doesn't sound like anything all that important even if he did win. (Plus, for the longest time here at P&N the Left loved saying how utterly unimportant Ahmadinejad was whenever he'd go on one of his "destroy Israel" rants; that it was the Mullahs who were important. Now who's President of Iran is a big deal. It's amazing how fast positions chamge around here?)
Fern
You're wrong, as usual.
Promise me you'll read one or more books, and I'll tell you. It's availabe the same places such info always is.
Why, yes I have. Do you have any proof they have changed the outcome of any elections?
We'll see what the charges find. If they are guilty, their role stops at the government door. Whatever they've done, if anything, it's not a government issue.
Prove they've done wrong, and I'll criticize it, but it's not the same as the government doing it.
Depends on what is *proven* in this case. There is a history of false charges against Acorn, as I wrote earlier today.
Your ignorance of facts doesn't make them not facts. Your calling allegations facts doesn't make them facts.
And OJ was found not guilty of a murder he commited. You have to look at the facts.
But only one of us has facts. You are not the one who does.
To take just one example, the ballot invalidation rates in black and white counties in Florida are a matter of public record, showing vast discrepencies - often rates in the 1%2% in white counties while often in double digits in black counties, IIRC. The interviews with election officials about how the machines were set to return or not return invalid ballots are a matter of public record. It wasn't always intentional; some errors were caused by lower budgets in poor counties, by the 'butterfly ballot' accident. Others were intentional.
You're a waste of time to write much detail to while you can't be bothered to get informed, so I'm not planning to waste that time. I'll make the point and leave it at that for now.
If you change are put any effort into actually getting informed, I'll point you to osme things to get informed from.
Air drop some arms to even the odds and sit back and watch the show, we don't need to say a word lol. After going through a hundred or so pictures from Iran bloggers people are dying over there, I saw many pictures of dead Iranians killed by the security forces of Iran. I am sure the CIA is giving the revolutionaries some gifts.
seemingly random
Diamond Member
You remember the end of '99-'00? And the bubble popping? And jobs drying up over the next two years?
The good times started in mid-2003 and went through mid-2007. Of course, I was being sarcastic but I bet with enough research there could be found indisputable evidence that war helped in certain areas. That's ignoring the long-term cost of war - financial and emotional. But those is power are gone now so they don't give a fuck. They made their benefactors very wealthy.
Patranus
Diamond Member
Within the confines of our legal system, yes, OJ Simpson is innocent of the murders he allegedly committed.
A prosecutor must show some level of proof before and the case is usually screened before a grand jury before an indictment can be levied against a person or corporation.
I never stated that fraud in the 2008 election altered the outcome of the election.
All of your allegations have not been proven. If they had been proven there would have been criminal indictments against those who perpetrated the election fraud. No such crimes were prosecuted. You can claim that minorities were disenfranchised more so than other groups but there is no claim that these abnormalities (if they exist to begin with) were racial bias rather than statistical errors. Such claims remind me of the argument that the justice system is racist because there is a higher proportion of American Americans in jail. While this could be due to the system being "racist", it more likely has to do with socioeconomics factors such as income not an inherent "racism" built into the system.
Please, if you can provide me with proof of your claim, than I will be happy to change my opinion, and come here and say that I was wrong and you were right.
Hey, borrowed 'prosperity', nice fiscal responsibility there. Why don't you go borrow for a new car and say it's 'good times'.
As was recently discussed, Krugman had said the only way the economy woudl have those 'good times' was with a housing bubble to pay for it in the short term.
Give that man a prize. Oh, wait, they did.
Of course, what the borrowed 'tax cuts' for the rich are doing is concentrating wealth more.
JohnOfSheffield
Lifer
1. LOL, you retarded idiots really think the US had ANYTHING to do with the fall of the USSR? It was a fucking revolution by the people. It's just as stupid as thinking the A-bombs were neccessary after agreeing to the exact same deal you got before they were launched.
2. I'd suggest you don't fuck up any more nations. Contrary to popular belief, being for going to war while never having the intention to participate isn't patriotic, it's just pathetic and makes you a coward with a big mouth.
2. I'd suggest you don't fuck up any more nations. Contrary to popular belief, being for going to war while never having the intention to participate isn't patriotic, it's just pathetic and makes you a coward with a big mouth.
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