To get 120hz or not to?

[Gamingphreek]

Hey Guys,

I'm looking at 37" LCD TV's and I am honestly on the fence between 120hz or 60hz.

I have a 10% off coupon at Best Buy (over $799) so I have to get the TV there.

But honestly, is 120hz really worth it. 1080p is definitely something I am going to get.

The TV needs to have the ability to connect to my HTPC via HDMI. I had a 720p set that I sold because HDMI was limited to 1024x768 and was then stuck with VGA.

Thanks
-Kevin

 

[zerocool84]

37" is kinda small. How far do you sit from the tv.

 

[Tiamat]

You know, oddly enough, I was just at costco, and apparently they now have a 240hz?????? Sorry, I can't be of help, but I don't really understand if these numbers are supposed to be just marketing gimmick or actual performance...

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: zerocool84
37" is kinda small. How far do you sit from the tv.

Well I will be a Senior in college. I'm an RA so I'm still in the dorms.... probably about 5' away from the TV. I plan on keeping this TV after I graduate though.

-Kevin

 

[Shawn]

Well all I know is my gf's parents have a 120Hz Vizio HDTV looks like CRAP with Smooth Motion turned on. It looks fine with it turned off, but then it just looks like a 60Hz TV. Of course, my gf's parents love it with slow motion on, but I think it looks so unnatural and almost looks like everything is playing in fast forward.

 

[Modelworks]

The biggest thing about 120hz is the 3d potential, 60hz for each eye. Another thing to consider is that LCD does not work like CRT. Just because you buy a 120hz tv does not mean it is updating the screen 120 times a second. LCD only updates when the picture changes. It has the potential to update 120 times a second, but only if the source changes that fast and right now the way it is being done on the tv is the tv itself is creating the extra frames which can result in a worse looking display than a 60hz if it is not done right.

More important is response time.

If you buy a 120hz tv that has a 5ms response time it will look worse than a 60hz tv with a 2ms response time.

 

[hans030390]

The smooth motion stuff looks terrible. I don't see the point in getting 120hz...yet.

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: hans030390
The smooth motion stuff looks terrible. I don't see the point in getting 120hz...yet.

It's to prevent 2:3 pull-down judder. Your Blu-Rays are authored at 24hz. Your TV is running at 60hz. 24 doesn't divide evenly into 60, so you see some slight jerking.

OTOH, 24 _does_ divide evenly into 120. So does 30 and 60, which are the other major source refresh rates you see today. That's why 120hz is helpful _right now_ even without motion enhancement gimmicks.

I have no idea about 240hz. CNet's review of the KDL-52XBR7 was not terribly complimentary with regards to that feature - minor improvements to test patterns, but basically impossible to notice on real programming.

 

[Porter21]

I would definitely get the 120hz if you own a blu-ray player.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

120hz makes movies seem very artificial. i hate that look and feel.

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
120hz makes movies seem very artificial. i hate that look and feel.

You mean motion enhancement, not 120hz. I just want to make that very clear. _120hz on its own only helps_. It's when you start trying to create new frames that the real problems occur.

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo
120hz makes movies seem very artificial. i hate that look and feel.

You mean motion enhancement, not 120hz. I just want to make that very clear. _120hz on its own only helps_. It's when you start trying to create new frames that the real problems occur.

Exactly. It really is marketing's fault that these concepts are confused. Motion enhancement != 120Hz. 120Hz is fantastic provided you can turn motion enhancement off.

 

[techwanabe]

It seems so many are misinformed and continue to be.

Last summer I did buy the Samsung LN46A650 46-inch 120 hz TV. I do have a blue ray player. I don't know if it is set for 120 hz out of the box or not, I'm still running it at default settings. I do know it has a nice picture tho.

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: techwanabe
It seems so many are misinformed and continue to be.

Last summer I did buy the Samsung LN46A650 46-inch 120 hz TV. I do have a blue ray player. I don't know if it is set for 120 hz out of the box or not, I'm still running it at default settings. I do know it has a nice picture tho.

as uninformed as you?
😉

 

[Gamingphreek]

I run BluRay through PowerDVD HD on Windows 7 Media Center.

The TV I am looking at does not refresh at 120hz (Much cheaper for a 60hz); however, it does support 24p playback. I assume 24p is the marketing term for 2:3 pull down compensation?

-Kevin

 

[PurdueRy]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I run BluRay through PowerDVD HD on Windows 7 Media Center.

The TV I am looking at does not refresh at 120hz (Much cheaper for a 60hz); however, it does support 24p playback. I assume 24p is the marketing term for 2:3 pull down compensation?

-Kevin

Well it can run at different refresh rates but they generally go together. They could just be listing that it's compatible with 24p signals even though it has to perform 3:2 pulldown.

 

[erwos]

Yeah, it's just saying it can support a 24hz input and convert it to 60hz (eg, do 2:3 pull-down internally) versus making your BR-D player do the conversion. Probably not a lot of difference in image quality. There are some 720p TVs which accept a 1080p input and downscale it to 720p, too.

 

[techwanabe]

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: techwanabe
It seems so many are misinformed and continue to be.

Last summer I did buy the Samsung LN46A650 46-inch 120 hz TV. I do have a blue ray player. I don't know if it is set for 120 hz out of the box or not, I'm still running it at default settings. I do know it has a nice picture tho.

as uninformed as you?
😉

Apparently...

I did do quite a bit of research on LCD TV's, including a lot of feed back here at Anandtech, and purchased my Sammy LN46A460 based on many happy owners. I can say I'm happy with mine, the picture looks great. I don't use the automotion feature but overall its a nice TV. So I guess I'll remain blissfully uninformed. 😉

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek

Originally posted by: zerocool84
37" is kinda small. How far do you sit from the tv.

Well I will be a Senior in college. I'm an RA so I'm still in the dorms.... probably about 5' away from the TV. I plan on keeping this TV after I graduate though.

-Kevin

I'd personally recommend a 42" TV, which is 29% larger than a 37" (and probably close to the same price). Here's a viewing-distance chart, a viewing-distance calculator, and a TV-size calculator. Those three tools are very helpful for seeing the differences in different screen sizes and for getting recommendations on screen sizes for your given viewing distance. A 42" TV (or even a 47") is the optimal size for a 5-foot viewing distance. Also, if your viewing distance increases after you move, a 42-47" will serve you much better than a 37".

For the 60Hz-120Hz comparison, I would say to not let that cloud your judgment. As others have mentioned, the smooth motion of the 120Hz TV will look awful, but you can turn that off. Once you do turn it off, the advantage you're left with is the ability to process 24Hz from BD with no 2:3 pulldown. With everything else (including price) being equal, I'd choose a 120Hz TV over a 60Hz. However, at your lower price range, you might get more bang for your buck with a 60Hz TV. Things like contrast ratio, color saturation, and color accuracy will make a MUCH bigger impact on PQ than 120Hz. When I went TV shopping, I read everything I could (especially professional reviews), perused several deals forums religiously, and then finally made a purchase that I'm still very, very happy with over 1 1/2 years later (I chose the Pioneer 5080 50" plasma BTW).

On a side note, don't let any of your "friends" in the drug-legalization thread know about your new TV, or else it might turn up missing or broken 😛.

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: techwanabe

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: techwanabe
It seems so many are misinformed and continue to be.

Last summer I did buy the Samsung LN46A650 46-inch 120 hz TV. I do have a blue ray player. I don't know if it is set for 120 hz out of the box or not, I'm still running it at default settings. I do know it has a nice picture tho.

as uninformed as you?
😉

Apparently...

I did do quite a bit of research on LCD TV's, including a lot of feed back here at Anandtech, and purchased my Sammy LN46A460 based on many happy owners. I can say I'm happy with mine, the picture looks great. I don't use the automotion feature but overall its a nice TV. So I guess I'll remain blissfully uninformed. 😉

You misunderstood BlahBlahYouToo's statement. He was simply pointing out that you misspelled blu ray (technically, it's "Blu-ray Disc" according to the Blu-ray Disc Association), hence the bolded "blue ray".

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: techwanabe

Originally posted by: BlahBlahYouToo

Originally posted by: techwanabe
It seems so many are misinformed and continue to be.

Last summer I did buy the Samsung LN46A650 46-inch 120 hz TV. I do have a blue ray player. I don't know if it is set for 120 hz out of the box or not, I'm still running it at default settings. I do know it has a nice picture tho.

as uninformed as you?
😉

Apparently...

I did do quite a bit of research on LCD TV's, including a lot of feed back here at Anandtech, and purchased my Sammy LN46A460 based on many happy owners. I can say I'm happy with mine, the picture looks great. I don't use the automotion feature but overall its a nice TV. So I guess I'll remain blissfully uninformed. 😉

He is referring to 2 things:

1. You don't set your blu ray to output 120hz. The source is decoded and output - the TV determines whether 3:2 pull down is necessary.

2. You spelled BluRay wrong 😉

Kalrith - thats kind of the conclusion I was coming to regarding the 120hz. I think it would be nice given the same price, but $400 more, at least in my opinion, is not worth it. Those links to the charts and calculators are really neat though - thanks!

On a side note, don't let any of your "friends" in the drug-legalization thread know about your new TV, or else it might turn up missing or broken .

Haha - gotta watch out for those druggies 😉

-Kevin

 

[techwanabe]

Originally posted by: kalrith
You misunderstood BlahBlahYouToo's statement. He was simply pointing out that you misspelled blu ray (technically, it's "Blu-ray Disc" according to the Blu-ray Disc Association), hence the bolded "blue ray".

I've never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. But I'll blame the vicodin I've been on having had two wisdom teeth extracted a few days prior to my posting that. Never mind our fingers often type stuff by habit! Damn those proof reading forum guys!

On hind sight, I kind of wish I would have spent a little more last summer and gotten the Sammy LN52A550 instead. One other thing (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the 650 model has a better sound system built in vs the 550 series ... and I don't have a home theater nor will I for a while. I live in an apartment and really wouldn't be able to take advantage of a home theater system. The build in speakers in my 650 sound surprisingly decent. I would have never tolerated the speakers in my Toshiba 27-inch tube TV, they are a joke. But the Sammy 650 speakers will get me by for a while longer. Not that it is a single reason the 650 vs the 550. I think some differences from memory are: higher contrast ratio, better sound system, 120 hz (more inputs?) Yeah, I'm too lazy to look up the feature comparison chart atm.

 

[Gamingphreek]

Originally posted by: techwanabe

Originally posted by: kalrith
You misunderstood BlahBlahYouToo's statement. He was simply pointing out that you misspelled blu ray (technically, it's "Blu-ray Disc" according to the Blu-ray Disc Association), hence the bolded "blue ray".

I've never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. But I'll blame the vicodin I've been on having had two wisdom teeth extracted a few days prior to my posting that. Never mind our fingers often type stuff by habit! Damn those proof reading forum guys!

Ha no worries - we all make mistakes. Good times 🙂

Can someone tell me if the PowerDVD Software does allow for 24p signals? Or does the PurevideoHD decoder automatically apply 3:2 Pulldown better than the TV would?

I think I am resolved to the fact that 120hz is out of what I have set aside for this TV - so now it is just 1 thing.

I want to use HDMI, NOT VGA. My last TV limited HDMI to 1024x768. This TV I want full 1080p from my HTPC over HDMI.

-Kevin

 

[kalrith]

Originally posted by: techwanabe

Originally posted by: kalrith
You misunderstood BlahBlahYouToo's statement. He was simply pointing out that you misspelled blu ray (technically, it's "Blu-ray Disc" according to the Blu-ray Disc Association), hence the bolded "blue ray".

I've never been the sharpest knife in the drawer. But I'll blame the vicodin I've been on having had two wisdom teeth extracted a few days prior to my posting that. Never mind our fingers often type stuff by habit! Damn those proof reading forum guys!

On hind sight, I kind of wish I would have spent a little more last summer and gotten the Sammy LN52A550 instead. One other thing (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the 650 model has a better sound system built in vs the 550 series ... and I don't have a home theater nor will I for a while. I live in an apartment and really wouldn't be able to take advantage of a home theater system. The build in speakers in my 650 sound surprisingly decent for TV speakers. I would have never tolerated the speakers in my Toshiba 27-inch tube TV, they are a joke. But the Sammy 650 speakers will get me by for a while longer. Not that it is a single reason the 650 vs the 550. I think some differences from memory are: higher contrast ratio, better sound system, 120 hz (more inputs?) Yeah, I'm too lazy to look up the feature comparison chart atm.

I know the 650 had a higher contrast ratio than the 550; I'm not sure of the other differences. Try not to lament over what you should've bought a year ago; just enjoy what you have and think through your future purchases a little bit more, so you're less likely to regret them.

I added to your quote to point out that the speakers in the 650 only sound decent for TV speakers. Even compared to a cheapie HTIB, they suck (like all TV speakers with the possible exception of some rpj sets). I think you're incorrectly assuming that you can't take advantage of a home-theater system. It doesn't have to be cranked up, have lots of bass, or have 7 huge speakers (possible limitations in your apartment) in order to provide a huge improvement over the sound of your TV speakers. Even spending $400 on a receiver and two bookshelf speakers would be leaps and bounds above the sound quality of your TV speakers, and you wouldn't have space or loudness issues. You could also get a system upon which you could build in the future. Many people think that it's best to buy an HT system all at once, but it's often best to spend your whole budget on a receiver and 2 speakers and then add components (sub, then center, then surrounds) later on. You'll wind up with a better system in the end, and you'll be able to enjoy markedly better sound right now. I recommend reading through yoyo's sticky for some excellent information on this subject, and then you can make your own thread (after searching through others, of course 😉) stating your budget and asking for recommendations.

Originally posted by: Gamingphreek
I want to use HDMI, NOT VGA. My last TV limited HDMI to 1024x768. This TV I want full 1080p from my HTPC over HDMI.

-Kevin

For any TV you're considering, download the manual and check the accepted PC resolutions over HDMI. They should be there in black and white. As long as it lists, 1920x1080 over HDMI, you should be set. There are other things that might come into play like input lag (if gaming) and 1:1 pixel mapping with no overscan, but you'll probably have to dig through a lot of reviews to find out that info.

 

[kalrith]

OP, I would highly recommend this 42" Panasonic 1080P plasma. If you order on Sears website, it's $810 right now. Bing cashback (link for Sears) is at 8% right now, so that brings it down to $745. You can get an additional 10% off via this MIR if you use your Sears card.

That's an incredible price for this TV, and you'd be hard-pressed to match the quality for the price.