To Anyone Who Loved Everquest- or Challenging MMO's

[MiataNC]

Ancient EQ joke:

Q: How do you know a Ranger broke into your house?
A. Your cat is camping his corpse.

 

[BoberFett]

I agree that the same exact time sinks won't work well in todays MMO's. I'm not sure that is what Pantheon will be about. Encouraging grouping and social interaction, doesn't mean there has to be huge time sinks everywhere. At least I hope not.

Grouping is inherently a timesink. That's the nature of designing a game around grouping. Humans, love them or hate them, take the path of least resistance. If you can play solo, people will. And when are forced to group, they do it in the easiest way possible. That's the reason WoW added meeting stones, and dungeon finders, and people that never say a word, grab their loot and disappear. Because nobody wants to spend hours wandering around trying to find an intrepid of group of heroes, only to then have to spend an hour running to their destination, and then be foiled by little Bobby the healer having to log off for dinner. WoW used to be a lot more hardcore than it is now, and it changed because that's what paying customers wanted.

Whoever said it is right. What some of you are clamoring for will be a niche game. And chances are even the "hardcore" people won't agree on whether it's hardcore enough or not, and the game will go down in flames within a month, just like most MMOs do.

 

[laezyre]

Pantheon may end up being a niche game, but it doesn't need millions of players to be successful. EQ1 never came close to that, and it was very successful.
For example, remember turned-based combat rpg's? Those have been "dead" or at best, extremely niche for years, right? Look at The Banner Saga, Blackguards, X-Comm, and even the super low budget Might and Magic X. These games are getting good reviews and doing pretty well today. They don't have WoW numbers, but people are buying them and enjoying them.
I'm sure that Brad McQuaid knows that staring at a spell book repeatedly or spending 3 hours to find a group isn't what made EQ players happy. He's going to tap into the challenging and fun part of EQ that most of us EQ addicts liked. It won't be perfect, but which MMO is?
I'm tired of the stagnation and easy mode that today's MMO's offer. I really wanted to like GW2, but quit after a few months. It wasn't a bad game, but it just didn't feel much different then other MMO's in the end. I actually enjoyed GW1 more. It was different, if not a pure MMO.

 

[laezyre]

Ancient EQ joke:

Q: How do you know a Ranger broke into your house?
A. Your cat is camping his corpse.

That's hilarious! I remember all those Ranger jokes in EQ1. I still can't recall why anyone would play one

 

[KaOTiK]

Ancient EQ joke:

Q: How do you know a Ranger broke into your house?
A. Your cat is camping his corpse.

I laughed way harder at that then I should of hahah, ty

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Honestly, I think people just want loot dispensers. Let's not just not require grouping to get the good stuff done, let's not require killing mobs either. Let's just hail Santa Claus in PoK for free loot.

That said, I still think people are locked into 1999 EQ in their comments. EQ changed a lot, reduced the timesinks, but still retained, or perhaps achieved, that balance between group and solo. Of course again, those looking for loot dispenser gameplay won't agree.

Either way, if grouping-is-more-efficient gameplay is niche, then I think we've transitioned almost fully into instant gratification only game design.

 

[laezyre]

I agree, EQ did change a lot since 1999. A number of things people complain about were eliminated way back in early 2000's.
EQ did make you feel a sense of accomplishment when you got loot. You had to break the spawn and have a balanced group that knew what they were doing. The anticipation of what the mob would drop was always fun. The gear meant more when you had to work hard for it. Death was tougher and the risks were higher, but so were the rewards. I can't remember feeling that rush of getting the special drop in any other game.

 

[Nebor]

Grouping is inherently a timesink. That's the nature of designing a game around grouping. Humans, love them or hate them, take the path of least resistance. If you can play solo, people will. And when are forced to group, they do it in the easiest way possible. That's the reason WoW added meeting stones, and dungeon finders, and people that never say a word, grab their loot and disappear. Because nobody wants to spend hours wandering around trying to find an intrepid of group of heroes, only to then have to spend an hour running to their destination, and then be foiled by little Bobby the healer having to log off for dinner. WoW used to be a lot more hardcore than it is now, and it changed because that's what paying customers wanted.

Whoever said it is right. What some of you are clamoring for will be a niche game. And chances are even the "hardcore" people won't agree on whether it's hardcore enough or not, and the game will go down in flames within a month, just like most MMOs do.

I think you're dead on. People don't want a hard MMO. They want a game where they can log in, spend a little time and get some item, skill or bauble that makes them feel like they've accomplished something. They don't want to walk long distances, solve puzzles or, god forbid, lose their baubles.

The days of hardcore gaming are over. From shooters where your health comes back in a few seconds to MMOs where you can never lose anything of value.

 

[laezyre]

Boberfett,
I don't think most people want to solo, at least not all the time. EQ had some ability to solo. Necros and druids come to mind. I was able to solo in GW2, AoC, Daoc, and other MMO's, but it got old and boring after a while. When I did group, it was for a very short time and I never saw those people again. Hell, you didn't even have to talk for the most part. It was strange and not much fun. I like having to work together and communicate. It really helped build bonds to people that were good and friendly.

BTW, this is a good link to a Pantheon web site. It's the main reason I started this thread. Please check it out.
http://pjpantheon.com/

 

[Nebor]

Boberfett,
I don't think most people want to solo, at least not all the time. EQ had some ability to solo. Necros and druids come to mind. I was able to solo in GW2, AoC, Daoc, and other MMO's, but it got old and boring after a while. When I did group, it was for a very short time and I never saw those people again. Hell, you didn't even have to talk for the most part. It was strange and not much fun. I like having to work together and communicate. It really helped build bonds to people that were good and friendly.

BTW, this is a good link to a Pantheon web site. It's the main reason I started this thread. Please check it out.
http://pjpantheon.com/

It's not even really about what's most fun. People, like he said, will naturally do whatever's easiest. If it's possible to solo, most people will play a character that can solo. Sure, there will be some people who group and do superfluous fun stuff like there is in every online game, but they'll be the minority.

 

[MiataNC]

I think you're dead on. People don't want a hard MMO. They want a game where they can log in, spend a little time and get some item, skill or bauble that makes them feel like they've accomplished something. They don't want to walk long distances, solve puzzles or, god forbid, lose their baubles.

The days of hardcore gaming are over. From shooters where your health comes back in a few seconds to MMOs where you can never lose anything of value.

You hit the nail on the head when you said that people want to feel like they accomplished something when they play regardless of how much time they spend. A well designed game can provide this to both casual and hardcore players.

 

[ewdotson]

You hit the nail on the head when you said that people want to feel like they accomplished something when they play regardless of how much time they spend.

Pretty much. There was a stretch of EQ where I played a rogue. There were nights I would never leave the Plane of Knowledge, unless it was to head to one of the leveling spots and fail to get a group there. That was ... not fun.

 

[IEC]

FFXIV ARR is fun when fighting EX primals

 

[laezyre]

Brad McQuaid has said that he is using elements FFXIV in Pantheon. He seems to really like that game from what he's said on the boards.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

It's not even really about what's most fun. People, like he said, will naturally do whatever's easiest. If it's possible to solo, most people will play a character that can solo. Sure, there will be some people who group and do superfluous fun stuff like there is in every online game, but they'll be the minority.

I agree that people will take the path of least resistance. But is that within the confines of a game itself, or does it go beyond a single game? In other words, will people really go to another game to get loot dispenser gameplay? Sure, no one wants a game where it takes 6 months to level, but will they really not go for a game where it's a balance between able to solo a big part of the game slowly and you need a group for another part of the game?

 

[Craig234]

Necros were the kings of soloing in EQ - whether by design or not can be debated - and I felt as a result they tended to be the nastier, more unfriendly people who didn't want to group, and that actually worked for the roleplay of a necromancer, which is a pretty nasty person. Of course, there were nice ones.

 

[BoberFett]

I agree that people will take the path of least resistance. But is that within the confines of a game itself, or does it go beyond a single game? In other words, will people really go to another game to get loot dispenser gameplay? Sure, no one wants a game where it takes 6 months to level, but will they really not go for a game where it's a balance between able to solo a big part of the game slowly and you need a group for another part of the game?

WoW killers come and go, but loot dispensing WoW is still trucking after a decade.

One of the best things WoW has done, IMO, is Raid Finder. Casual players can still do raids and get lesser quality gear from the same type of content that used to take dedicated 40 man groups who spent 60 hours/week playing the game. Real raiding guilds will still get higher quality gear, but casuals aren't completely locked out of the end game like they were in the past. Of course hardcore players still complain about this, because they still don't feel special enough...

 

[Nebor]

I agree that people will take the path of least resistance. But is that within the confines of a game itself, or does it go beyond a single game? In other words, will people really go to another game to get loot dispenser gameplay? Sure, no one wants a game where it takes 6 months to level, but will they really not go for a game where it's a balance between able to solo a big part of the game slowly and you need a group for another part of the game?

Sure, people will flow to new games because they have a chance to be on the top of the loot heap if they're an early adopter. I've never installed WoW, played it, or even watched anyone play it in person, but I'm certain that if I joined today, there is no way I would ever be in the top 20% of "wealthy" WoW players as far as money and loot is concerned. That means something to some people.

 

[Craig234]

Sure, people will flow to new games because they have a chance to be on the top of the loot heap if they're an early adopter. I've never installed WoW, played it, or even watched anyone play it in person, but I'm certain that if I joined today, there is no way I would ever be in the top 20% of "wealthy" WoW players as far as money and loot is concerned. That means something to some people.

Actually, there is largely a 'reset' on that each expansion.

 

[Zstream]

At one point, I had a MMO game in mind and went about creating a few hundred pages of documents and drawings.... The great thing is that it eliminated the archaic fashion of solo/kill/loot, group/kill/loot and focused more on the "world" with consequences.

*sigh* wish I could present the idea to someone.

 

[Gryz]

but I'm certain that if I joined today, there is no way I would ever be in the top 20% of "wealthy" WoW players as far as money and loot is concerned.

You couldn't be more far from the truth. I think WoW must be the MMO where new players can catch up quicker than any other game.

As Craig234 said, there is a complete gear-reset every 22 months, when a new expansion is released. Any gear you were wearing in the previous expansion, will be made useless in the next expansion. So it's a clean slate for everybody.

But it's even better. In the middle of a new expansion, there are ways to catch up quickly. An expansion typically has 3 or 4 tiers of raiding, and thus tiers of gear. Right now WoW is in the 4th tier of Pandaria. In other games you might never be able to catch up. In WoW it is extremely easy to get gear of two tiers back. In 48 hours after dinging, you'll have better gear than tier-2. Then it takes 2-3 weeks of doing LFR (Looking For Raid: public group 25-man raiding of weakened raiding content). And you'll be ready for normal raiding. If you do normal raiding, you are already in the top 20% of players. Note, to do normal raiding, you need to have a guild group. The real prestige is in heroic raiding. That'll be a bit harder to get into. But not impossible at all.

Gold is another matter. If you just play the game, you'll make enough gold to buy anything you need. If you want to buy all the expensive stuff (mounts, etc) you'll need maybe 100k gold. Which is easily attainable if you want to achieve that. To be considered a real rich player, you'll need 1 million gold or more. You'll need to play the auction house to achieve that. Depending on your server, that will require quite a bit of time-investment. But then again, there's nothing you can buy with that 1 million gold that you can't buy with only a few tens of thousands.

So yeah, you can catch up rather easily in WoW.
The only problem at the moment is the legendary cloak. Attainable for everybody, but it takes ~3 months to do the questline. Until you get it, you'll be doing 20% less dps than others. And thus you'll be a 2nd class citizen for those first 3 months.

 

[maniacalpha1-1]

Sure, people will flow to new games because they have a chance to be on the top of the loot heap if they're an early adopter. I've never installed WoW, played it, or even watched anyone play it in person, but I'm certain that if I joined today, there is no way I would ever be in the top 20% of "wealthy" WoW players as far as money and loot is concerned. That means something to some people.

We might be talking about two different things; when I talk about loot dispenser gameplay, I'm talking about games that make it so easy that there is no "top" of the loot heap because everyone can get the good stuff easily. That's one of the things I'm afraid of; there needs to be some mixture of time and difficulty to obtain the gear or it's meaningless.

That said, early adoption is a different thing; I do understand people might flow to a new game for a chance to get there first. Sure, if you didn't make the top of the loot heap in Game X then 3 months later you go to new Game Y. But what I mean is, new releases aside will people reject one game where loot is prestigious due to time and difficulty to obtain, in favor of another game where everyone can practically walk up to a quest NPC and hail him for free lootz? If so, what's the point of that?

 

[angminas]

The best zone revamp ever was The Accursed Temple of Cazic-Thule in March 2002. They took a mid-level dungeon and turned it into the most brutal zone in the game. Mobs all over the place could see invis, hasted, sowed, enrage, aoe dot/slow, immune to fire or magic, hit extremely hard and fast, gigantic hp. The ubers farmed it for a while and then it became a ghost town, because the other 90% of people were terrified of the place.

I saw the loot drops on Allakhazam and decided to make that zone mine. I scouted, studied, asked advice. I formed groups by doing /who for the class I needed, luring them with the possibility of astonishingly good and valuable loot. I started doing this when I was about a 54 warrior with little money and only slightly above average gear, which meant I was an appetizer in CT. Unless you were very strong, you had to use raid tactics and discipline, or you would get wiped in a HURRY.

I lived there for months. I took group after group into the deepest and deadliest areas, places I was told were impossible for me to camp. I developed strategies which enabled groups of undergeared, underskilled, and underleveled strangers to walk out with sometimes hundreds of k a night. I ran the Ring of Slime something like 30 times. I also ran dozens of other raids in places like Ssraeshza Temple.

I still have people in game tell me about their awesome memories of those days, and how they were the most fun they've ever had in a MMO. Same here. I'm not a people person, but the MM part of it is what made Everquest shine.

 

[Nebor]

ITT I get an undesired WoW education.

 

[laezyre]

Angminas,
You just described why I loved EQ so much. Learning to overcome difficult odds and working as a team, was a blast. It was even better when you were rewarded with phat lewt. Finding that great camping spot, especially when others avoided it, was even better.
I hope that Pantheon can bring back some of these experiences. No other MMO has.

http://www.pjpantheon.com/