Time to start researching the beginning of my future HT, starting with a 2ch setup

[jlee]

I was planning on dropping $1k on my truck's stereo this spring, but I'm re-thinking that, as I only use my truck 4-6 months out of the year and I live at home for all 12.

I can't often have really loud volume (roommates), but I would like to get as much of a sound quality upgrade (from Z560's) as I possibly can. Right now, my tentative plan is to spend $1k on receiver / two speakers. I am hoping I can get good enough / full range speakers to make a subwoofer unnecessary at this point (remember, roommates, and I am on the 3rd floor). However, if it's really worth the initial investment I will definitely consider it.

As far as other AV stuff goes, I have my computer and 360 hooked up via HDMI to my 42" Vizio. The 360 is set up as an extender, but it's really unnecessary as the computer is in the same room. I would like to have the option to expand to 5.1 or 7.1 down the line, while keeping these two speakers (whether they are primary or surround, I don't care). I would rather invest in a nice pair of speakers and run stereo, vs running a full surround with lower quality stuff (my room isn't set up very well for surround anyway).

So, the research begins! I'll be going through stickies and poking around a lot, but I thought I'd see if anyone had some quick suggestions to point me in the right direction.

One other question - I have a 4890 with audio over HDMI...assuming I run everything through HDMI, is there any reason for a discreet sound card? I don't use my TV as a primary display, though, so that might complicate things.

 

[darkswordsman17]

I was gonna recommend magnaplanars, but I don't think they'd work well for you as they put out a lot of sound in both directions, which probably wouldn't be ideal for your current situation. That and you'd want a sub with them.

It won't be too difficult for you to get two speakers that will handily outperform your Z-560s, and you can transition them to the sides or rear later on.

Hmm, right now, I might would recommend spending most on the receiver if you plan on keeping it. If you go higher there, there'd be less need to upgrade it later. I can't think of any major features coming out that would make you want to upgrade, since you should easily be able to get the lossless surround formats. Of course receivers sometimes can lose quite a bit of value compared to speakers, but that's not always true either.

I think it will come down to the best deal you can get when you're ready to spend. If possible, I'd recommend looking for used, as you tend to maximize your value that way. Audiogon is great if you didn't know about it already.

I'm sure others can chime in with better advice. I'm more of a headphone guy now, although I do miss my home theater that I had.

Oh, on the issue of the discrete sound card. It depends. I can't recall if the 4890 was capable of bitstreaming the lossless surround formats. Since that's had major issues even with cards meant specifically for that (mostly software issues), I wouldn't say a discrete card will really help, especially if your aim is just digital output. Just checked and it looks like the 4890 can't stream them, but you can have your computer decode them and send them as uncompressed PCM.

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

I came from 560s too
https://mywebspace.wisc.edu/spmclaughlin/web/Random/Log%20vs Rock.JPG

If you wanted to, you could re-use the Logitech sub with an adapter and use the z-560s satellites as surrounds/rears.
If you bought two or three speakers for the front of the room, you'd have a full system going (not ideal, but you might like it if you don't have other plans for the Logitech system).

I would recommend getting a pretty good receiver that does audio over HDMI and has some kind of automatic room correction. I'm a fan of Audyssey, so that means Onkyo and Denon are the prime candidates.
A pretty good receiver from them would be about $400-$500 (less if you get a good deal)

For $500-$600, you could potentially get some good speakers that would go down low enough to not require a subwoofer, but you might feel like it's not enough coming from the z-560 set.

 

[jtvang125]

If you can up your budget a bit for a center also it'd make a better initial setup. I know you can set the receiver to no center and it will direct all sound to the fronts but it will sound much more natural with a true center.

 

[sdifox]

Room dimensions?

 

[mshan]

How important is music vs. home theater soundtracks? (It is very hard to produce say a budget avr that excels at both, especially the music part. A little boom and sizzle may make a movie sound track more exciting, but may also be quickly fatiguing to the ear when listening to music)

If movies are main planned use, and music a more casual afterthought, you could start with two Hsu HB-1 mk. 2 http://hsuresearch.com/products/hb-1.html and a Pioneer AVR (Hsu uses the now discontinued Pioneer VSX-1018 in their showroom. You could use one of their newer avrs, but they might not have the oomph that the 1018 / VSX-01 / VSX-03 (have same basic guts and an apparently very powerful amp section) have running multi-channel at loud volumes). Tonal balance of the Hsu monitors is full, even without sub and even though actual cutoff is 60 hz or so (I forgot). There won't be much tactile bass impact without a sub, but you can add center, surrounds, and sub later.

If music is primary concern, NAD receivers always get high praise as a budget leader, and could work well with the often recommended Paradigm Atom ( http://www.paradigm.com/en/paradigm/fronts-monitor-atommonitor-model-2-4-1-1.paradigm ) or PSB Alpha minimonitors.





edit: this is an old review of previous generation Hsu sub in an apartment setting: http://mikeshea.net/lt/editorial_89.html (that sub has been replaced by slightly revised VTF-1 now, I think). If you want a music first system and can up your budget to say $1500 - $2000, this NAD cd player got a great review: http://soundstage.com/equipment/nad_c565bee.htm Monitor Audio Silver S6 is supposed to be a great match for the Outlaw Audio 1050 AVR, if you can find them used on Audiogon.com. Probably a much more aggressive, more in your face type of sound than say the NAD rig.

 

[vshah]

do you have a rough idea for your upgrade/expansion timeframe? i.e. will you expand to 5.1 in six months, or might it be a few years?

 

[vi edit]

I'll go against the grain and suggest looking at a refurb H/K 247/347 receiver off of the Harman Ebay site for $200 or so. It's a very nice receiver that does full HDMI audio processing and also has pre-outs if you want to add external amps at a later point.

I'd then go with some bookshelves that you enjoy listening too. And I'd also look at a small sealed subwoofer to round out the lows/midranges. For music you don't need the sub cranked up to fill in the nice warm mids that you want for that application. And then when you go to expand out to a full 5/7 channel system you can either keep the bookshelfs up front and surrounds or use them for surrounds. Plus you have a sub that you can use as either the dedicated LFE or add in a bigger one and use this in a dual sub setup to level out room nulls.

If you aren't sure how long you are planning on expanding, I just don't see much value dumping a lot of money into a receiver. Get something that does HDMI processing and has preouts so you are reasonably future proof for $200 or so. By the time you get around to expanding HDMI specs are going to be updated and your $400-$500 receiver is now outdated. And you really aren't gaining anything other than a warranty.

 

[3chordcharlie]

do you have a rough idea for your upgrade/expansion timeframe? i.e. will you expand to 5.1 in six months, or might it be a few years?

If relatively soon, I'd say decide if you will want floor speakers eventually, and if you will, buy the bookshelfs that will eventually become surrounds, the receiver, and maybe a center channel if it fits the budget.

 

[jlee]

do you have a rough idea for your upgrade/expansion timeframe? i.e. will you expand to 5.1 in six months, or might it be a few years?

Probably a while, but I don't know for sure. It all depends on how much overtime I work and if I figure out a good way to set up 5.1 in the room I am using.

Room dimensions?

It's pretty big. I will have to measure it and post pics of the layout. Unfortunately my TV is 90 degrees offset of my computer, which sucks for gaming...I may explore alternative room layout options so I can have the sound system properly oriented for the computer as well.

If relatively soon, I'd say decide if you will want floor speakers eventually, and if you will, buy the bookshelfs that will eventually become surrounds, the receiver, and maybe a center channel if it fits the budget.

Yes, I'm pretty sure I will want floor speakers.

I don't mind spending a little extra if it'll be worthwhile. Is there a point of diminishing returns, as there is with PC hardware?

It's hard to say which is the priority, movies or music...I enjoy both! The z560's I have are too bass-heavy, if that helps at all. I turn the bass on the controller all the way down, and if I have an EQ in the playback software I often end up dropping the bass a bit further.

 

[mshan]

I kind of suspect you might like two Hsu HB-1 mk. 2 speakers with a Hsu VTF-1 (it is basically the VTF-2 from the review I linked above, but with slightly flatter frequency response: http://hsuresearch.com/products/vtf-1.html and a Pioneer AVR (older generation 1018/-01/-03 would be better if you want to expand to full multi-channel and like to play loud), though I use the Pioneer 919 with above Hsu components and find it sounds quite nice (I have shared walls, so I can't play loud; if not, I probably would have bought an SVS sub with their room and wall shaking ability).

If music is important to you, it might be wiser to later buy a separate system consisting of an integrated amp (e. g. NAD) and often praised simple 2-way minimonitor (again, Paradigm Atom or PSB Alpha, though there are also lots of other very competent competitors).

The Hsu / Pioneer rig I mentioned above and own is competent on music, just not anything really special (I used to own a Pioneer BDP-51FD blu-ray player which was also known as a very musical cd player, and it actually sounded quite good when connected via HDMI to other components).

 

[3chordcharlie]

There is absolutely a point of diminishing returns, and it starts at about $200/pair bookshelf speakers, which can give you 'good' sound.

That's not in any way to suggest cutting yourself off at $200, but more to say that what you spend is entirely up to where your ears and budget collide.

A lot of manufacturers add 'bass' by cranking up the mid-lows which is really more 'boomy' than 'bassy'. This might be what you're running into with the logitechs.

Clear performance to below 50hz (in ideal conditions, to about 30hz, but in most spaces this isn't practical) can add a lot to your movie watching, and really can't be had with bookshelf speakers. Adequate bass for music listening is, however, quite possible with bookshelfs.

The compromise I've hit on without the space or budget for the floor speakers I would like is decent bookshelfs (future surrounds, I hope) and a matching center, and a pair of outdoor speakers as surrounds, which will one day move outdoors.

Low end is improved with a cheap (<$200) sub, and (tactile) bass shakers. It helps that the room is small, and the sub is able to fill it. On the other hand, it's also too small for any sound lower than 50hz to really develop properly.

There's definitely nothing wrong with choosing to purchase a pair of floorstanders and a receiver now, and nothing else. Just make sure there are surrounds and a center available to purchase later, especially if you go 'used'.

 

[jlee]

I would rather get higher end components and go slower on expansion than to get more inexpensive stuff. I realize that a center is very important for movies, but I'd rather spend more on two really good primary speakers and add a center later. However, if I can get speakers that would be awesome surrounds and serve temporarily as 'good' mains, I could do that.

By no means is $1k a fixed budget - I'm paying my truck off in the next two weeks, and depending on whether or not I get the job I just applied for, that could be another $8k/yr (if not more). If it's really worth spending extra, I don't mind at all (especially considering that speakers are not obsolete in months). Granted I don't plan on dropping $5-10k on speakers, but I am flexible.

 

[sdifox]

lol, 8k a year pre tax translate to what, 5.5k after? that is about 110 dollar extra a week. Don't think you are going to be able to do a lot more with that

I am not knocking the 8k increase. This is just a reality check

I think a different way, grab a cheap receiver, and that 200 dollar Energy Take 5 set and you are enjoying yourself. Then save up and buy a nice system.

But if you want to wait that works too. Get a nice set of speakers, you can go cheaper on electronics since they really don't last as long as speakers.

Depending on the room size and setup, you may or maynot NEED a centre. Centre is really for the people not sitting dead centre.

 

[jlee]

lol, 8k a year pre tax translate to what, 5.5k after? that is about 110 dollar extra a week. Don't think you are going to be able to do a lot more with that

I am not knocking the 8k increase. This is just a reality check

I think a different way, grab a cheap receiver, and that 200 dollar Energy Take 5 set and you are enjoying yourself. Then save up and buy a nice system.

But if you want to wait that works too. Get a nice set of speakers, you can go cheaper on electronics since they really don't last as long as speakers.

Depending on the room size and setup, you may or maynot NEED a centre. Centre is really for the people not sitting dead centre.

I'm not quite sure how to take that, other than to say that I forget this is Anandtech, the world of millionaires.

I have cheap rent. I'm pretty sure I can handle buying something a bit better than $50 speakers with a $50k income and no debt, but thanks for your concern...

It's a bit of a wreck, but this is the room.

 

[sdifox]

I'm not quite sure how to take that, other than to say that I forget this is Anandtech, the world of millionaires.

I have cheap rent. I'm pretty sure I can handle buying something a bit better than $50 speakers with a $50k income and no debt, but thanks for your concern...

I am just telling you to slow down on the spending side. This is the line that prompted my heads up.

"Granted I don't plan on dropping $5-10k on speakers, but I am flexible. "

I waited a couple of years before I committed the funds to my audio setup. At the time I was making 70+K and was about to drop 10k. So before that, I was surviving on 5 speakers I had sitting around the house and a borrowed receiver. I was still buying dvds, but that is small change compared to the audio segment. I bought my audio system in Dec 99 (I did change the amp 2 year in). Still kicking ass but there will be a refresh of the pre/pro. Not sure which yet though. No interest in 7 channel at all.

I am just saying don't go crazy on this shit, it is for fun, thus optional. It should not cut into your real life plans like saving for house.


I am not shitting you, for your room, the Energy Take 5 is a great deal.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16882269004&Tpk=energy%20take%205

just add a decent receiver and a decent sub and you got a decent system for that space.


Main system
Audio
Pre/Pro: Marantz AV-9000
Amp: Outlaw 750 (165x5 @8Ohm)
Mains: Definitive Technology BP-2000TL
Centre: Definitive Technology CLR2000
Rear: Definitive Technology BP-10B
Subs: Built into BP-2000TL (2 of them), 15 inch driven by a dedicated 500 watt plate amp.

Video
Mitsubishi HC4900 1080p LCD PJ
~100" matte screen

Source
Dual Core Opteron 165 running at 2.5GHz HTPC with 10TB of High Def movies
Panasonic RP-82s DVD player. Also serves as DVD-Audio Player
Technic 60+1 CD Player
JVC MD Recorder/ CD Changer
Toshiba HD-D3 HD-DVD Player


Consoles
Dreamcast
X-Box 360

 

[jlee]

I will just keep my Z560's before I buy a cheap HT setup that I'm just going to want to toss eventually anyway.

This is the only major purchase I'm planning this year, and I really don't feel like justifying it to the internet. :/ I appreciate your concern, but whether it's car stuff, gun stuff or computer stuff, I haven't had great experiences going with 'cheap cheap cheap'.

 

[sdifox]

I will just keep my Z560's before I buy a cheap HT setup that I'm just going to want to toss eventually anyway...

find a place with the Energy Take 5 setup and listen. They are great especially for the price. But of course you can just keep the Z560s

 

[jlee]

find a place with the Energy Take 5 setup and listen. They are great especially for the price. But of course you can just keep the Z560s

lol, I can try. Ever been to NH?

 

[sdifox]

lol, I can try. Ever been to NH?

Nope...not a traveler. Most of my travels are involuntary.

 

[jlee]

Nope...not a traveler. Most of my travels are involuntary.

There's not much here. I was originally planning on buying my HT setup after I got my own house (was looking at Arizona), but then I decided to stay here for a couple years (at least 'till my little sister is a bit older). I can't afford a house here, and I wouldn't buy one here anyway. If it's not worth putting a $1500 system together, I might as well just go with my original plan and put a stereo in my truck, and then find some better computer speakers.

 

[sdifox]

There's not much here. I was originally planning on buying my HT setup after I got my own house (was looking at Arizona), but then I decided to stay here for a couple years (at least 'till my little sister is a bit older). I can't afford a house here, and I wouldn't buy one here anyway. If it's not worth putting a $1500 system together, I might as well just go with my original plan and put a stereo in my truck, and then find some better computer speakers.

truth to be told computer speakers don't hold a candle to real speakers.

<-- grew up in a electronics mid level distributor/retail store.

Is NH the place famous for clambake?

 

[jlee]

truth to be told computer speakers don't hold a candle to real speakers.

<-- grew up in a electronics mid level distributor/retail store.

Is NH the place famous for clambake?

I had a Kenwood HTIB and it sucked (huge gap between the speakers and sub), even though it had good reviews..hence my hesitation to get anything that even smells cheap.

Clambake..hm I have no idea. We have maple syrup and mountains...and skiing.

 

[sdifox]

I had a Kenwood HTIB and it sucked (huge gap between the speakers and sub), even though it had good reviews..hence my hesitation to get anything that even smells cheap.

Clambake..hm I have no idea. We have maple syrup and mountains...and skiing.

lol Kenwood, first mistake, on top of that HTIB...


Clam bake is a New England thing...just looked it up.

 

[jlee]

lol Kenwood, first mistake, on top of that HTIB...


Clam bake is a New England thing...just looked it up.

Hell I got it for $150 or $200...it was reviewed to be great (link), but I wasn't a fan.