Time To Admit It: the church was right on birth control

[Atomic Playboy]

You're arguing these people are better off dead.

Not quite. He's arguing that these people are better off never existing. If you abort an embryo at an early stage of development, you haven't killed a human, you've ended the development cycle of a potential human. You can't kill what isn't alive. So he's not saying anyone is better off dead, he's saying it's better that they never existed. This is the crux of the debate when it comes to "where does life begin," and it's why you and Zaap can never see eye-to-eye, because you don't have the same definition of terms from the get-go.

 

[brandonb]

Not quite. He's arguing that these people are better off never existing. If you abort an embryo at an early stage of development, you haven't killed a human, you've ended the development cycle of a potential human. You can't kill what isn't alive. So he's not saying anyone is better off dead, he's saying it's better that they never existed. This is the crux of the debate when it comes to "where does life begin," and it's why you and Zaap can never see eye-to-eye, because you don't have the same definition of terms from the get-go.

If that embryo was on Mars, and detected by a rover. Would NASA declare they found life on Mars?

Just curious about your answer here.

 

[etrigan420]

If that embryo was on Mars, and detected by a rover. Would NASA declare they found life on Mars?

Just curious about your answer here.

Of course they would. The same as they would if they found some bacteria.

I'm not sure that necessarily means we need to start accusing Purell of genocide. :|

 

[Atreus21]

Not quite. He's arguing that these people are better off never existing. If you abort an embryo at an early stage of development, you haven't killed a human, you've ended the development cycle of a potential human. You can't kill what isn't alive. So he's not saying anyone is better off dead, he's saying it's better that they never existed. This is the crux of the debate when it comes to "where does life begin," and it's why you and Zaap can never see eye-to-eye, because you don't have the same definition of terms from the get-go.

So the difference is we destroyed it before we called it a human being.

The only way people never exist is if their parents never conceive them. They did exist. We just snuffed them out before they knew about it, and before it became problematic.

 

[nehalem256]

Ask any woman who has had an abortion if it's not a life altering event. Some of the men on this forum are incredibly naive.

Maybe that is because when pro-choicers like to argue that a fetus is an essentially worthless clump cells for which there can be no moral argument against destroying?

Why should removing some worthless cells from your body be a life altering event?

Really? I've known 3 women personally who had abortions. None of them seemed to think of it as a big deal, nor did any of them seemed to regret what they did. It was business as usual, and all were pregnant (again) within months.

Consider this story:

But I know that the very first thing I did when I found out I was pregnant was check to make sure I had enough in my account to cover the cost of an abortion. In those initial moments of anxiety, holding two positive pregnancy tests and trying to figure out how to get unpregnant as soon as humanly possible, knowing I wouldn’t have to scramble to come up with the money was an enormous relief.

http://feministing.com/2011/03/08/human-rights-privilege-and-why-i-bowl-for-abortion-access/

Seems like she put less thought into whether to get an abortion than I do about what socks* to wear. Doesn't exactly sound like getting one was such a big deal to me.

*All my socks are white

 

[brandonb]

Of course they would. The same as they would if they found some bacteria.

I'm not sure that necessarily means we need to start accusing Purell of genocide. :|

He specifically said an embryo was not alive by certain definitions.

What definition? That it can't function on it's own without a host? Or a parent? So baby birds who haven't jumped out of the nest aren't alive until they make that first big leap? Or its not alive until it's hatch out of an egg? Or it isn't alive until its fertilized? Or is it alive the moment the egg was formed by the hen?

Our laws regarding humans says we are not alive until we exited the womb (but you can still get an additional murder charge for killing a pregnant woman - her fetus) Religious (the church) say it starts when its fertilized (conception). NASA would indicate life much sooner than that.

So we're all at different points when we call something alive. That's what he is saying. But I think we can probably all answer the NASA question with the same answer.

 

[surfsatwerk]

He specifically said an embryo was not alive by certain definitions.

An embryo found on Mars would most certainly be dead.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

If that embryo was on Mars, and detected by a rover. Would NASA declare they found life on Mars?

Just curious about your answer here.

If that embryo is taken out of the womb, it will cease to be alive in very short order. So either they found a pregnant woman on Mars (which would be slightly more shocking than just finding an embryo), or they found evidence of life, not a living thing.

 

[WHAMPOM]

If pregnant human females could absorb their fetus as certain mammals do when under stress, would we have such testy arguments about that too?

 

[Jaskalas]

We have a society that is telling young people it is ok to have sex, and ok to ignore the responsibility of your actions. The two do not jive.

It's not the sex that will be sacrificed.

Irresponsibility is what must be dealt with. That begins by not pretending that teenagers are vestal virgins. You don't teach them responsibility by pretending they don't have a biological need, or by setting an example that they must be hush - hush about it. Or keep it to themselves.

America has a societal stigma towards sex and until that is eliminated we're not going to have honest or helpful sex ed for teens. You won't see results when people go nuts over Janet Jackson's breast. That's a deeply repressed and disturbed society.

 

[Victorian Gray]

I respectfully disagree.

Kim Kardashian for example, her first marriage lasted what, 70 something days? And young girls are supposed to look up to her?

Sweet, guess what comes next?

Show us one example of anyone who is anyone who has stated that young girls should be looking up to Kim Kardashian

Miley Cyrus is another example with her dancing around mostly nude in her recent performances.

Again, who is stated that young girls should be looking up to her.

Using birth control is being responsible. But on the flip side of the coin we have a society telling young people it is ok to behave badly.

Take Lindsay Lohan for example. Anyone else and she would have been in prison for a long time.

We have a society that is telling young people it is ok to have sex, and ok to ignore the responsibility of your actions. The two do not jive.

Seriously, the above is such a pile of bull crap. Take Lindsay Lohan, seems to me since she began her downward spiral I'd be surprised to find much written/spoken about her that wasn't either slamming or simply making fun of her or tut tutting and saying what a shame, what a shame. Again, haven't seen anyone holding her up to young girls as a role model


As for the final bolded statement:

 

[Victorian Gray]

I don't believe that for one second. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are not "fucking" and have no control of urges. When you state birth control as being the only possible option I disagree with that as well. There is such a thing as natural family planning and is just as effective as a condom.

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table

 

[Zstream]

No.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_birth_control_methods#Comparison_table

Umm yes. Natural family planning I.e. Creighton method is just as good if not better as it doesn't add hormones.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Umm yes. Natural family planning I.e. Creighton method is just as good if not better as it doesn't add hormones.

Those methods work very well for committed couples in long-term relationships. But a lot of this discussion is centered around the sexual experiences of young people, and most of the Creighton model isn't going to apply. Young people generally aren't cohabiting with their partners, they aren't in long-term relationships and they're not dedicating time to charting their monthly cycle to organize their sexual schedule around periods of low fertility. Similarly, implantations and vasectomies are going to be a lot more effective than condoms, but they're also more difficult to reverse, so young people generally won't use them if they feel there's any chance of wanting children at some point in the future. Condoms and oral contraception may not be as effective, but it's the combination of convenience and effectiveness that makes them a better choice for young people (especially when the alternative is "no contraception").

 

[Geosurface]

All my socks are white

Racist.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Umm yes. Natural family planning I.e. Creighton method is just as good if not better as it doesn't add hormones.

What hormones are in condoms which it was claimed to work better than?

And the statistics don't seem to back up the claim. Note the bolded below.

"Here is a list of some birth control methods with their failure rates and possible side effects.
Birth control methods, failure rates, and side effects MethodFailure rate (the number of pregnancies expected per 100 women) Some side effects and risks

Sterilization surgery for women
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Pain
• Bleeding
• Complications from surgery
• Ectopic (tubal) pregnancy

Sterilization implant for women
(Essure)
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Pain
• Ectopic (tubal) pregnancy

Sterilization surgery for men
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Pain
• Bleeding
• Complications from surgery

Implantable rod
(Implanon)
Less than 1 pregnancy
Might not work as well for women who are overweight or obese.

• Acne
• Weight gain
• Ovarian cysts
• Mood changes
• Depression
• Hair loss
• Headache
• Upset stomach
• Dizziness
• Sore breasts
• Changes in period
• Lower interest in sex

Intrauterine device
(ParaGard, Mirena)
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Cramps
• Bleeding between periods
• Pelvic inflammatory disease
• Infertility
• Tear or hole in the uterus

Shot/injection
(Depo-Provera)
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Bleeding between periods
• Weight gain
• Sore breasts
• Headaches
• Bone loss with long-term use

Oral contraceptives (combination pill, or "the pill")
5 pregnancies
Being overweight may increase the chance of getting pregnant while using the pill.

• Dizziness
• Upset stomach
• Changes in your period
• Changes in mood
• Weight gain
• High blood pressure
• Blood clots
• Heart attack
• Stroke
• New vision problems

Oral contraceptives (continuous/extended use, or "no-period pill")
5 pregnancies
Being overweight may increase the chance of getting pregnant while using the pill.

• Same as combination pill
• Spotting or bleeding between periods
• Hard to know if pregnant

Oral contraceptives (progestin-only pill, or "mini-pill")
5 pregnancies
Being overweight may increase the chance of getting pregnant while using the pill.

• Spotting or bleeding between periods
• Weight gain
• Sore breasts

Skin patch
(Ortho Evra)
5 pregnancies
May not work as well in women weighing more than 198 pounds.

• Similar to side effects for the combination pill
• Greater exposure to estrogen than with other methods

Vaginal ring (NuvaRing)
5 pregnancies

• Similar to side effects for the combination pill
• Swelling of the vagina
• Irritation
• Vaginal discharge

Male condom
11-16 pregnancies

• Allergic reactions

Diaphragm with spermicide
15 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Urinary tract infection
• Toxic shock if left in too long

Sponge with spermicide (Today Sponge)
16-32 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Hard time taking it out
• Toxic shock if left in too long

Cervical cap with spermicide
17-23 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Abnormal Pap smear
• Toxic shock if left in too long

Female condom
20 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions

Natural family planning (rhythm method)
25 pregnancies
None

Spermicide alone
30 pregnancies
It works best if used along with a barrier method, such as a condom.

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Urinary tract infection

Emergency contraception ("morning-after pill," "Plan B One-Step," "Next Choice")
1 pregnancy
It must be used within 72 hours of having unprotected sex.
Should not be used as regular birth control; only in emergencies.

• Upset stomach
• Vomiting
• Lower stomach pain
• Fatigue
• Headache and dizziness
• Irregular bleeding
• Breast tenderness"

http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/birth-control-methods.html

 

[Zstream]

What hormones are in condoms which it was claimed to work better than?

And the statistics don't seem to back up the claim. Note the bolded below.

"Here is a list of some birth control methods with their failure rates and possible side effects.
Birth control methods, failure rates, and side effects MethodFailure rate (the number of pregnancies expected per 100 women) Some side effects and risks

Sterilization surgery for women
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Pain
• Bleeding
• Complications from surgery
• Ectopic (tubal) pregnancy

Sterilization implant for women
(Essure)
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Pain
• Ectopic (tubal) pregnancy

Sterilization surgery for men
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Pain
• Bleeding
• Complications from surgery

Implantable rod
(Implanon)
Less than 1 pregnancy
Might not work as well for women who are overweight or obese.

• Acne
• Weight gain
• Ovarian cysts
• Mood changes
• Depression
• Hair loss
• Headache
• Upset stomach
• Dizziness
• Sore breasts
• Changes in period
• Lower interest in sex

Intrauterine device
(ParaGard, Mirena)
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Cramps
• Bleeding between periods
• Pelvic inflammatory disease
• Infertility
• Tear or hole in the uterus

Shot/injection
(Depo-Provera)
Less than 1 pregnancy

• Bleeding between periods
• Weight gain
• Sore breasts
• Headaches
• Bone loss with long-term use

Oral contraceptives (combination pill, or "the pill")
5 pregnancies
Being overweight may increase the chance of getting pregnant while using the pill.

• Dizziness
• Upset stomach
• Changes in your period
• Changes in mood
• Weight gain
• High blood pressure
• Blood clots
• Heart attack
• Stroke
• New vision problems

Oral contraceptives (continuous/extended use, or "no-period pill")
5 pregnancies
Being overweight may increase the chance of getting pregnant while using the pill.

• Same as combination pill
• Spotting or bleeding between periods
• Hard to know if pregnant

Oral contraceptives (progestin-only pill, or "mini-pill")
5 pregnancies
Being overweight may increase the chance of getting pregnant while using the pill.

• Spotting or bleeding between periods
• Weight gain
• Sore breasts

Skin patch
(Ortho Evra)
5 pregnancies
May not work as well in women weighing more than 198 pounds.

• Similar to side effects for the combination pill
• Greater exposure to estrogen than with other methods

Vaginal ring (NuvaRing)
5 pregnancies

• Similar to side effects for the combination pill
• Swelling of the vagina
• Irritation
• Vaginal discharge

Male condom
11-16 pregnancies

• Allergic reactions

Diaphragm with spermicide
15 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Urinary tract infection
• Toxic shock if left in too long

Sponge with spermicide (Today Sponge)
16-32 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Hard time taking it out
• Toxic shock if left in too long

Cervical cap with spermicide
17-23 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Abnormal Pap smear
• Toxic shock if left in too long

Female condom
20 pregnancies

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions

Natural family planning (rhythm method)
25 pregnancies
None

Spermicide alone
30 pregnancies
It works best if used along with a barrier method, such as a condom.

• Irritation
• Allergic reactions
• Urinary tract infection

Emergency contraception ("morning-after pill," "Plan B One-Step," "Next Choice")
1 pregnancy
It must be used within 72 hours of having unprotected sex.
Should not be used as regular birth control; only in emergencies.

• Upset stomach
• Vomiting
• Lower stomach pain
• Fatigue
• Headache and dizziness
• Irregular bleeding
• Breast tenderness"

http://www.womenshealth.gov/publications/our-publications/fact-sheet/birth-control-methods.html

Rhythm method is not what I'm talking about and your lack of understanding proves my point.

 

[Zstream]

Those methods work very well for committed couples in long-term relationships. But a lot of this discussion is centered around the sexual experiences of young people, and most of the Creighton model isn't going to apply. Young people generally aren't cohabiting with their partners, they aren't in long-term relationships and they're not dedicating time to charting their monthly cycle to organize their sexual schedule around periods of low fertility. Similarly, implantations and vasectomies are going to be a lot more effective than condoms, but they're also more difficult to reverse, so young people generally won't use them if they feel there's any chance of wanting children at some point in the future. Condoms and oral contraception may not be as effective, but it's the combination of convenience and effectiveness that makes them a better choice for young people (especially when the alternative is "no contraception").

Understood but there should not be promotion of sexual activities outside of marriage. I have no problem with it if you're responsible but it does decline the social construct. Knowing many people choose to ignore the responsibility when things happen is an issue.

There should be no government issued reward for doing the above. It just exacerbates the problem. While most feel sorry for the couple, it's not reasonable to force others to pay for bad choices.

 

[Victorian Gray]

Rhythm method is not what I'm talking about and your lack of understanding proves my point.

Direct quote "There is such a thing as natural family planning and is just as effective as a condom."

"NATURAL FAMILY PLANNING

a method of birth control that involves abstention from sexual intercourse during the period of ovulation which is determined through observation and measurement of bodily symptom"


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural family planning

"rhythm method
a method of birth control in which the couple abstain from sexual intercourse during the period when ovulation is most likely to occur."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rhythm+method


Care to try again?

 

[Zstream]

Direct quote "There is such a thing as natural family planning and is just as effective as a condom."

"NATURAL FAMILY PLANNING

a method of birth control that involves abstention from sexual intercourse during the period of ovulation which is determined through observation and measurement of bodily symptom"


http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/natural family planning

"rhythm method
a method of birth control in which the couple abstain from sexual intercourse during the period when ovulation is most likely to occur."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rhythm+method


Care to try again?

Because the rhythm method isn't A method at all. It's a bunch of people guessing when they can and can't have sex. So no, it is not and is not even taught.

So quit bring obtuse, it's annoying and will you will never be seen as a peer until you stop.

 

[Veliko]

I don't believe that for one second. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are not "fucking" and have no control of urges. When you state birth control as being the only possible option I disagree with that as well. There is such a thing as natural family planning and is just as effective as a condom.

You've misunderstood what he said.

The people with lower sex drives who aren't fucking are doing so out of their own volition.

Darwin said this, which is about preventing those who want to from doing it.

Trying to stop any group of animals, humans included, from fucking, without absurdly extreme measures like complete segregation, is like trying to stop the wind from blowing.

And natural family planning is inherently less effective than a condom.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

Understood but there should not be promotion of sexual activities outside of marriage. I have no problem with it if you're responsible but it does decline the social construct. Knowing many people choose to ignore the responsibility when things happen is an issue.

There should be no government issued reward for doing the above. It just exacerbates the problem. While most feel sorry for the couple, it's not reasonable to force others to pay for bad choices.

I completely and wholeheartedly disagree with all of this. The idea that you need a government-sanctioned contract to engage in sexual activity with a partner is so completely absurd in this day and age that it doesn't even deserve mention. I have no problem with an individual making the choice to wait until marriage to have sex; it's everyone's right to decide for themselves when they want to engage in that behavior. But this notion that people MUST wait until marriage is the same driving force behind abstinence-only sex education campaigns that are having the effect of driving up teenage pregnancy and STI rates because young people are going to have sex regardless of whether or not you tell them they should wait. Our goal needs to be educating them in the proper way to handle sex if they should have it before marriage (as the vast majority of Americans do now), not pretending that "wait until marriage" is a valid contraceptive method.

 

[Darwin333]

I don't believe that for one second. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are not "fucking" and have no control of urges.

I didn't say what you are implying I did. The kid word in my statement was "group", as in society. Sure parts of it aren't fucking but to disagree with my statement would mean that you believe that we can stop the entirety of said group from fucking, is that what you are trying to say?

When you state birth control as being the only possible option I disagree with that as well. There is such a thing as natural family planning and is just as effective as a condom.

I didn't state that either but what you just described IS a form of birth control. What makes one any different than the other?

 

[desy]

Why shouldn't there be sex outside of marriage
Marriage is a relatively modern invention, a legal construct for property rights, who says only married sex is moral?

 

[bshole]

I think if we would teach girls to only have anal and oral sex before marriage, it would ameliorate many of these problems. Make vaginal sex seem dirty and only really acceptable for breeding purposes. I think pushing gay sex in public schools would be beneficial as well.... pitch it as a safe alternative to "normal" sex.