Time To Admit It: the church was right on birth control

[Zxian]

Now we've given women an out, they can alter the life of the fetus and eliminate it to escape that life changing event. But if they choose to keep it, it's life altering for the woman, right?

Ask any woman who has had an abortion if it's not a life altering event. Some of the men on this forum are incredibly naive.

 

[Kadarin]

Not just women, but also men.

Birth control is a wonderful thing when used properly. But when society takes a 16 year old girl, gives her the pill, then tells her its ok to have sex, what is she going to do? Chances are she is going to have sex.

She forgets to take a pill, gets sick takes antibiotics,,,, whatever happens but she gets pregnant. Now what?

Society told this young girl and young man there would be no consequences for their actions. So now what?

A 16 year old girl, like a 16 year old boy, is sexually mature, horny, and will have sex, regardless of what you try to do about it whether there is a pill or not.

Society does NOT say there will be no consequences. Society does say that proper use of birth control will greatly reduce the chances of pregnancy, but that there still is a chance (in fact, I suspect it even says as much on the box of whatever form of birth control it happens to be).

Your projection of whatever moral issues you have does not equal reality.

 

[nehalem256]

"institutional foundling homes first emerged in late-14th-century Italy as distinct charitable initiatives of civic governments, confraternities, and guilds, and aimed to curb the exposure and to channel the abandonment of infants, most of whom were illegitimate."

"Foundlings were most often abandoned by single mothers (servants, slaves, prostitutes, and other marginal persons) who lacked the economic or social resources to raise a child on their own. Abandonment frequently took place within days of birth, and girls were more frequently abandoned than boys (Pullan 1994). Early Renaissance commentators wrote of large numbers of illegitimate infants being thrown in rivers and on trash heaps"

http://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195399301/obo-9780195399301-0126.xml

With few exceptions, such as Florence’s exceptionally well-documented Innocenti home where 375,000 children were abandoned from the 15th century through the 20th

So we over 400 years we have 375,000. Or less than 1000/year.

Still waiting for evidence of the 9,000,000 infants that were secretly murdered between 1940-1960 in the United States.

 

[nehalem256]

Can you possibly get data from a more Rightwing affiliation?

From the chart:

Source: U.S. Census Bureau, American Community Survey, 2005-2009 data

:hmm:

 

[LunarRay]

It would be fine if they administered birth control to men, No?

This way both the man and woman could have sex and no babies would result AND they could rename a woman's birth control oh.... Acne and period control...

 

[Victorian Gray]

So we over 400 years we have 375,000. Or less than 1000/year.

Still waiting for evidence of the 9,000,000 infants that were secretly murdered between 1940-1960 in the United States.

Maybe one of these days you will learn how to construct a cogent argument. Obviously today is not that day.

You said:

"Perhaps if safe-haven laws had existed in the past there would have been less infanticide"

Hence the little history lesson which was obviously beyond your capabilities for understanding.

btw, for the viewing audience, the figure shown was for 1 home and one might wish to consider the population of the area where that one home was in, say the first 200 or 300 years of the home's existence.

 

[IronWing]

Time To Admit It: the church was right on masturbation

 

[AViking]

Birth control is not the problem. The problem is religion.

 

[Geosurface]

People should start being a bit more honest on this subject.

I'll say it, all the rest of us know it, but most won't dare say it:

I'm GLAD that most of those aborted over the past -let's say 40 years- aren't around to be whatever problem to an already overcrowded society. I'm glad they're not all here needing jobs no one is offering. I'm definitely glad many aren't here committing crimes and/or leeching more off public assistance. I'm glad many aren't here to vote in even larger blocks for an even worse and more vile brand of greedbag tax and spend politician.

It's not that all of them would have automatically ended up terrible people- it's just that virtually all of them were/would have remained unwanted, would have likely then been born into terrible situations, impoverished, etc, leading to neglect, abuse and a host of other things that wouldn't exactly bode well for molding model citizens.

I'm GLAD those who weren't able to/didn't want to raise another unwanted kid, didn't let on to do so in the name of someone else's religious belief or political view or whatever else. I admit it. The world, this country is better off for it. I dont give a fuck if its PC or not to admit it. It's not a statement of cruelty or of hating children, in fact, exactly the opposite. I don't know why anyone imagines they're doing kids any big favor by cramming them in with tons more unwanted/neglected kids that would otherwise have been aborted.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:

I agree completely.

I think occasionally there are abortions which turn out to have been a loss for society. But I think the vast majority are as you say, dodged bullets.

 

[Darwin333]

Read this article, pay attention to where it talks about the crime rates from the 1950s and 1960s.

http://phys.org/news197644722.html

When parents married, future murder rates went down.

When parents did not marry, future murder rates went up.

I never argued nor implied that having a stable home with two loving parents isn't the healthiest possible situation for bringing up a child.

It is called taking responsibility for your actions.

Yes it is but you seem to be getting off your topic a bit. Using birth control IS being responsible.

With that said, what is your solution to this problem? I recall your stance on divorce (pretty sure it was you) but if you put that into law the marriage rate would plummet, probably to single digits.

 

[Texashiker]

Society does NOT say there will be no consequences.

I respectfully disagree.

Kim Kardashian for example, her first marriage lasted what, 70 something days? And young girls are supposed to look up to her?

Miley Cyrus is another example with her dancing around mostly nude in her recent performances.

Yes it is but you seem to be getting off your topic a bit. Using birth control IS being responsible.

Using birth control is being responsible. But on the flip side of the coin we have a society telling young people it is ok to behave badly.

Take Lindsay Lohan for example. Anyone else and she would have been in prison for a long time.

We have a society that is telling young people it is ok to have sex, and ok to ignore the responsibility of your actions. The two do not jive.

 

[alzan]

I respectfully disagree.

Kim Kardashian for example, her first marriage lasted what, 70 something days? And young girls are supposed to look up to her?

Miley Cyrus is another example with her dancing around mostly nude in her recent performances.




Using birth control is being responsible. But on the flip side of the coin we have a society telling young people it is ok to behave badly.

Take Lindsay Lohan for example. Anyone else and she would have been in prison for a long time.

We have a society that is telling young people it is ok to have sex, and ok to ignore the responsibility of your actions. The two do not jive.

If a parent or parents are not involved with their kids and letting the Kim Kardashians, Miley Cyrus' and Lindsay Lohans of the world become their kids role models than the parents are the problem. It's easy and convenient to blame a nebulous "society" for the countries' ills but fairly inaccurate. To raise our children properly and make our world/country/society better takes due diligence on everyone's part.

We had ne'er-do-wells when myself and my brothers were in our formative years but our parents made sure that they were not our role models and that we didn't mimic the behavior.

 

[brandonb]

Ask any woman who has had an abortion if it's not a life altering event. Some of the men on this forum are incredibly naive.

Really? I've known 3 women personally who had abortions. None of them seemed to think of it as a big deal, nor did any of them seemed to regret what they did. It was business as usual, and all were pregnant (again) within months.

 

[Texashiker]

If a parent or parents are not involved with their kids and letting the Kim Kardashians, Miley Cyrus' and Lindsay Lohans of the world become their kids role models than the parents are the problem. It's easy and convenient to blame a nebulous "society" for the countries' ills but fairly inaccurate. To raise our children properly and make our world/country/society better takes due diligence on everyone's part.

Parents can preach to their kids all they want, but in the end peer pressure means a lot.

 

[alzan]

Parents can preach to their kids all they want, but in the end peer pressure means a lot.

A strong sense of self esteem counteracts peer pressure.

 

[Darwin333]

Miley Cyrus is another example with her dancing around mostly nude in her recent performances.

Was she having sex or saying people should have sex? If not, what is your fear of the human females body?

Using birth control is being responsible. But on the flip side of the coin we have a society telling young people it is ok to behave badly.

We have a society that is telling young people it is ok to have sex, and ok to ignore the responsibility of your actions. The two do not jive.

I don't know what society that you live in but I am raising two daughters one of which will be a teenager this year. She is most definitely not being taught that it is "ok" to have sex. OTOH, I am not an idiot.

You see, it isn't society that is teaching kids that it is ok to have sex it is biology and the most very basic of human instinct. Trying to stop any group of animals, humans included, from fucking, without absurdly extreme measures like complete segregation, is like trying to stop the wind from blowing. A completely futile action, the absolute best that we can do is educate kids and give them the best possible resources.

Unless of course you are suggesting more drastic measures?

 

[Darwin333]

Parents can preach to their kids all they want, but in the end peer pressure means a lot.

Again, what exactly is the solution that you are proposing?

 

[Zorba]

I would think the increase in out of wedlock births probably has a lot more to do with:
1) Increased drug usage/addiction
2) Increased alcohol usage/addiction among women
3) People not being encourage to get married straight out of high school (this is made worse by the fact that puberty is happening sooner too, so instead of having 4-5 horny years before marriage, the new norm may be 15-20 horny years before marriage)
4) Overall changing of social norms that have little to do with birth control
5) Decline in birthrate among married couples, due to an increase in birth control and changing social norms

I haven't pulled hard data on any of this yet, so these are educated assumptions.

 

[Darwin333]

Really? I've known 3 women personally who had abortions. None of them seemed to think of it as a big deal, nor did any of them seemed to regret what they did. It was business as usual, and all were pregnant (again) within months.

Wow. I don't know a single woman that has had an abortion that got pregnant again, at least to my knowledge. Besides, that is usually something that is rather private and not bragged about. What kind of women are you hanging out with to know 3 that had abortions, didn't get on some sort of birth control after the abortion and got pregnant again within months of said abortion? I can't imagine that an abortion is a very pleasant procedure to go through purely from a physical standpoint.

I don't even know anyone that knows anyone that uses abortion as their primary form of birth control.

 

[brycejones]

Again, what exactly is the solution that you are proposing?

He has absolutely no idea. TH posts to whine and ignore any evidence that is presented to him.

 

[Zstream]

Was she having sex or saying people should have sex? If not, what is your fear of the human females body?




I don't know what society that you live in but I am raising two daughters one of which will be a teenager this year. She is most definitely not being taught that it is "ok" to have sex. OTOH, I am not an idiot.

You see, it isn't society that is teaching kids that it is ok to have sex it is biology and the most very basic of human instinct. Trying to stop any group of animals, humans included, from fucking, without absurdly extreme measures like complete segregation, is like trying to stop the wind from blowing. A completely futile action, the absolute best that we can do is educate kids and give them the best possible resources.

Unless of course you are suggesting more drastic measures?

I don't believe that for one second. There are hundreds of thousands of people who are not "fucking" and have no control of urges. When you state birth control as being the only possible option I disagree with that as well. There is such a thing as natural family planning and is just as effective as a condom.

 

[brandonb]

Wow. I don't know a single woman that has had an abortion that got pregnant again, at least to my knowledge. Besides, that is usually something that is rather private and not bragged about. What kind of women are you hanging out with to know 3 that had abortions, didn't get on some sort of birth control after the abortion and got pregnant again within months of said abortion? I can't imagine that an abortion is a very pleasant procedure to go through purely from a physical standpoint.

I don't even know anyone that knows anyone that uses abortion as their primary form of birth control.

Well, to tell you a story on one (which I've mentioned here in this forum in the past, so I apologize if you've read it before, and since it is already "public" knowledge, I'll use the same story again).

I had a friend from high school who married some broad during our 20's. At some point in their marriage they started having problems. She was 6 months pregnant with their 2nd child at the time. It was bad enough that he decided to stay with his parents (temporarly). She was abusive including physically and quite controlling.

During the first few days of him staying at his parents, she told him if he didn't come back home, she would abort their child. He basically told her to F off, and how dare she consider abortion and try to force him back home and use their unborn child as a hostage. The next day she an appointment and she aborted their child. He left on a weekend day Sunday or so, and the child was aborted on the Thursday following. Later on, they reconciled, and she ended up pregnant once again within months of the original abortion. She carried this one until it was born.

Did she talk to me about it publically? Nope...

I heard it from my friend/her husband. Because I was his best friend and he needed to get it off his chest and vent/talk to someone, he made the story public to me.

As I said in the other thread when I mentioned it before. I believe his wife should have ended up in jail for what she did, but it's completely legal. He has since been divorced from her for about 10 years now. He finally escaped her grasp. Thank goodness.

Edit - I know in this case it was a married woman, and not a single woman. So not really a good comparison/story for a single woman. But as it stands, I've known quite a few gals in high school who had abortions and were just as promiscuous afterword's as before. In fact, one of them was the sister of my friend I just mentioned above.

 

[desy]

What a horrible article!
OMG short on facts , full of self righteous fabrications, pure tripe
I feel lessened for actually reading it.

 

[cyclohexane]

He has absolutely no idea. TH posts to whine and ignore any evidence that is presented to him.

Obviously, the solution is to not have sex, no birth control needed. Then, marry someone and knock her up/have sex once. Great solution, right?

 

[Atreus21]

People should start being a bit more honest on this subject.

I'll say it, all the rest of us know it, but most won't dare say it:

I'm GLAD that most of those aborted over the past -let's say 40 years- aren't around to be whatever problem to an already overcrowded society. I'm glad they're not all here needing jobs no one is offering. I'm definitely glad many aren't here committing crimes and/or leeching more off public assistance. I'm glad many aren't here to vote in even larger blocks for an even worse and more vile brand of greedbag tax and spend politician.

It's not that all of them would have automatically ended up terrible people- it's just that virtually all of them were/would have remained unwanted, would have likely then been born into terrible situations, impoverished, etc, leading to neglect, abuse and a host of other things that wouldn't exactly bode well for molding model citizens.

I'm GLAD those who weren't able to/didn't want to raise another unwanted kid, didn't let on to do so in the name of someone else's religious belief or political view or whatever else. I admit it. The world, this country is better off for it. I dont give a fuck if its PC or not to admit it. It's not a statement of cruelty or of hating children, in fact, exactly the opposite. I don't know why anyone imagines they're doing kids any big favor by cramming them in with tons more unwanted/neglected kids that would otherwise have been aborted.

No barbarism, not even slavery, rises to the level of inhumanity and cruelty you're championing here.

You're arguing these people are better off dead. And if we killed good people in the process, well, it's acceptable because they were necessary to kill the bad people. My God. How do you know someone wouldn't look at you and say you're better off dead by their standards of qualify of life? Everyone's for population control as long as they're not the one making the real sacrifice. Other people, not I, need to disappear.

Does no one see the horror in a disinterested third party prescribing death to someone who they deem not to be a burden on society, but a potential burden on society? And especially using the excuse that it's for the soon-to-be-dead person's own good?

Of all the aspects of pro-choice positions, this is the most terrifying. It jars me every time I see it by its sheer, self-congratulatory, and completely non-self-aware inhumanity.