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ticketmaster WTF?

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Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
Originally posted by: lupi
could be worse, went to check no doubt tickets and they're coming in at $100 each and the fees are only about $20 of it.

I dropped a record 210/ea for tool tix =P

You wanna see expensive check out coldplay/clapton/fleetwoodmac tix jesus christ
 

dainthomas

Lifer
Dec 7, 2004
14,935
3,914
136
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: lupi
could be worse, went to check no doubt tickets and they're coming in at $100 each and the fees are only about $20 of it.

I dropped a record 210/ea for tool tix =P

You wanna see expensive check out coldplay/clapton/fleetwoodmac tix jesus christ

The last two I could see because old people have money, but what's with coldplay?
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
Originally posted by: dainthomas
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: lupi
could be worse, went to check no doubt tickets and they're coming in at $100 each and the fees are only about $20 of it.

I dropped a record 210/ea for tool tix =P

You wanna see expensive check out coldplay/clapton/fleetwoodmac tix jesus christ

The last two I could see because old people have money, but what's with coldplay?

fucked if I know

When I checked their show @anaheim, it started at 80 bucks for nosebleeds.

(not that I want to see them, I just want to scalp tickets =D)
 

anxi80

Lifer
Jul 7, 2002
12,294
2
0
Originally posted by: Summit
Originally posted by: maziwanka
dude. that's exactly what i was thinking when i bought these UFC tickets today. fucking stupid.

BUT then i thought - would you really have noticed if the order processing fee was part of the convenience charge (i.e. a higher convenience charge and no order processing fee)?

ticketmaster blows

too bad no more mir lesnar fight ... tears

ah flippin' weak! just take him on anyways with a bum knee frank! all you need to do is get him on the ground, quickly submit him again and then treat the knee. wont take you more than 2-3 minutes, tops!
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
I hope to hell you expressed your disgust by NOT buying any tickets. Otherwise, stop whining.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
I hope to hell you expressed your disgust by NOT buying any tickets. Otherwise, stop whining.

If you got a better way for me to experience live music, one of my greatest joys in life, let me know ;)

 

Red Squirrel

No Lifer
May 24, 2003
70,603
13,810
126
www.anyf.ca
Sounds like bad management. fine if they want to charge that much, but to make it all seperate fees? Just add it all as one fee to make things simpler.
 

maziwanka

Lifer
Jul 4, 2000
10,415
1
0
Originally posted by: Summit
Originally posted by: maziwanka
dude. that's exactly what i was thinking when i bought these UFC tickets today. fucking stupid.

BUT then i thought - would you really have noticed if the order processing fee was part of the convenience charge (i.e. a higher convenience charge and no order processing fee)?

ticketmaster blows

too bad no more mir lesnar fight ... tears

what
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
I hope to hell you expressed your disgust by NOT buying any tickets. Otherwise, stop whining.

If you got a better way for me to experience live music, one of my greatest joys in life, let me know ;)

Effing monopoly. Love how they own the resale sites too now. I'm tempted to buy 50 tickets next time for a popular concert and sell them all at face value as a big F-U.
 

kinev

Golden Member
Mar 28, 2005
1,647
30
91
Originally posted by: maziwanka
Originally posted by: Summit
Originally posted by: maziwanka
dude. that's exactly what i was thinking when i bought these UFC tickets today. fucking stupid.

BUT then i thought - would you really have noticed if the order processing fee was part of the convenience charge (i.e. a higher convenience charge and no order processing fee)?

ticketmaster blows

too bad no more mir lesnar fight ... tears

what

Back on?
 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
I hope to hell you expressed your disgust by NOT buying any tickets. Otherwise, stop whining.

If you got a better way for me to experience live music, one of my greatest joys in life, let me know ;)

There are plenty of concerts that don't require the use of ticketmaster, and as long as people continue to let them fuck them over then they'll continue doing it. If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.
 

imported_Imp

Diamond Member
Dec 20, 2005
9,148
0
0
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
I hope to hell you expressed your disgust by NOT buying any tickets. Otherwise, stop whining.

If you got a better way for me to experience live music, one of my greatest joys in life, let me know ;)

There are plenty of concerts that don't require the use of ticketmaster, and as long as people continue to let them fuck them over then they'll continue doing it. If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Um ya, I'd say you're right if we were talking about buying a TV or video card, but a concert from a particular band probably can't be substituted for. It's a one time experience, which is exactly why these bullshit charges and scalping make it so much harder to swallow. This isn't even a movie, you can't see a later show; a band on tour isn't coming back for years. Unless you drive to their next show, but they probably sell those shows through ticketmaster too.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
There are plenty of concerts that don't require the use of ticketmaster, and as long as people continue to let them fuck them over then they'll continue doing it. If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Not the bands I want to see =P

Or what he ^^ said
 

Jeff7

Lifer
Jan 4, 2001
41,596
20
81
Other organizations love the fees.

As I understand it, you're not permitted to charge a fee for credit card payment, versus some other kind of payment.

So my campus has a 2% "convenience fee" attached, supposedly to pay for the cost of running the super special credit card data servers. So if you're paying a bill of more than $6000, that's over $100 for "convenience."
But pay with an eCheck, and there's no fee.

Remember kids, it is most certainly not a credit card fee. It's convenience.



They should just call it a "Stupid Bullshit Fee" and stop with all the idiocy.

 

AnonymouseUser

Diamond Member
May 14, 2003
9,943
107
106
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
There are plenty of concerts that don't require the use of ticketmaster, and as long as people continue to let them fuck them over then they'll continue doing it. If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Not the bands I want to see =P

Or what he ^^ said

So basically you don't mind them fucking you. So stop whining and enjoy the concert.
 

silverpig

Lifer
Jul 29, 2001
27,703
12
81
The thing that pisses me off is if you want them to mail the tickets you have to pay a handling charge, but if you want to print them out they call it a convenience charge.

Bastards.

I love how your $26 worth of tickets cost you $47.
 

Ns1

No Lifer
Jun 17, 2001
55,420
1,600
126
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
Originally posted by: Ns1
Originally posted by: AnonymouseUser
There are plenty of concerts that don't require the use of ticketmaster, and as long as people continue to let them fuck them over then they'll continue doing it. If you're not part of the solution then you are part of the problem.

Not the bands I want to see =P

Or what he ^^ said

So basically you don't mind them fucking you. So stop whining and enjoy the concert.

No, I mind.

Just because I sit there and take it doesn't mean I can't be vocal about it =P
 

AlienCraft

Lifer
Nov 23, 2002
10,539
0
0
I'm going to post some of Lefsetz's Letters where he discusses this at length.
I'll link to his site so you can peruse the entire thread at your leisure.
Suffice it to say that during my brief foray into concert promotion, where I was booking a venue in rural Northern Ca. in the late 80's, I developed an intense hatred of Ticketmaster and decided to sell my tickets directly and forgo their"convenience" and fees , just to keep ticket prices stable.

Letter's
I had a long conversation with a promoter who told me that with regard to a show he was promoting, Ticketmaster was guaranteeing the secondary market for the act.

Let me explain this to you. A certain number of tickets are pulled from the manifest and ultimately sold on TicketsNow. Ticketmaster guarantees a certain gross payment to the act for these tickets, far in excess of the usual payment per ticket. If the tickets don't sell at the predicted high prices? Too bad for Ticketmaster.

Blame the acts for this. Ticketmaster Is taking the heat.

It bothers me that the traditional press and concertgoers are too stupid to see the truth here. Irving said at the House hearing that only 80-85% of the tickets to a show are ever sold by Ticketmaster. The question is, where do the remaining 15-20% go?

A certain percentage go to senate seat holders. In English, people buy season passes to every gig at a venue. Sometimes, legitimately/with good intentions. These people go to each and every show or give or sell unwanted tickets to friends OR sell them on the secondary market, i.e. StubHub and TicketsNow. But oftentimes the owners of senate seats are brokers/scalpers. Sure, they may eat the tickets for dog shows (figuratively, not literally), but they live for the superstar tickets, which they scalp and make a profit on. So, when you see tickets available on secondary sites before the show has even gone on sale at Ticketmaster, this is most often senate seat holders. They've got the tickets, they've got the right.

Do other people/brokers/scalpers have connections at Ticketmaster and are able to buy the best seats? One cannot totally eliminate fraud, let's just take Ticketmaster's word that it does the best to stamp out this process.

Does Ticketmaster pull tickets from the original on sale and sell them on TicketsNow, bypassing the traditional 10 A.M. free-for-all feeding frenzy? I don't know the answer to this. But I suspect not. Because Ticketmaster is a public company and the additional revenue would have to show up somewhere in the accounting. In any event, I've got no confirmation/independent corroboration stating this occurs.

But what shocked me was a recent conversation with a manager. Who told me that Live Nation's offer for his act included pulling multiple hundreds of tickets to sell on the secondary market. I did not know that Live Nation did this. Do I believe this manager? Absolutely. Is this a common practice? I don't sell shows/talent, so I don't know. But, where there's smoke, there's fire.

We need a little truth here. Where do all the tickets to a show go? How many to senate seat holders, how many to the band, how many to insiders, how many to..?

Ticketmaster is taking all the heat, but is Ticketmaster really the culprit here? And, if it is, is it the only one?

How about a little sunshine. The acts are hiding behind Ticketmaster. But if Live Nation wants this merger approved, how about a delineation of availability. In other words, who gets the right to buy tickets?

The public is ignorant. The public thinks if a show goes on sale, they're entitled to pay face rate and sit in the front row. The public doesn't know the ticket fees are kicked back from Ticketmaster to the promoter, the act, the building...

Then again, some people aren't ignorant. They don't even deal with the original on sale. They go straight to the secondary market. They know what's available, the price is clear and they make a reasonable decision, not influenced by the heat of the moment.

Look at it this way. If there's a rush to buy the latest toy every Christmas, why should someone with money think he's entitled to just log on to Ticketmaster's site and buy great seats? They can't buy a wii.

But, the game should be defined. How many of the overall tickets being sold are available through Ticketmaster? Are any good seats ever put on sale?

Forget the Springsteen hysteria. That's not the real issue here. The point is, in a country where you can look up what someone gave to a politician on the Internet, where you can research seemingly each and every fact about individuals and companies online, why can't there be a map showing what tickets are actually available? Furthermore, why can't there be an accounting of where the "missing" tickets have gone?

Don't think shenanigans don't take place with independent promoters. These games are endemic to the system. But now the government gets a say, having the right to approve or disapprove this merger. Where do the tickets go and who has the right to buy them? As for all the pre-sales, you need to get an American Express card and join the fan club and still you can't get the best seats. Let's level the playing field. Or at least let the customer know he's fucked from the get-go.
LETTER RE:TICKETmaster hearing
Live Nation/Ticketmaster Judiciary Hearing
I don?t advise you watch it. Unless you want to familiarize yourself with everyone?s personality. As for seeing government in action, when Orrin Hatch started talking about Utah and the Bowl Championship Series, I wanted my money back. Or at least a deduction on my 1040. If you think that the music business is a club, you should check out the verbal gymnastics and ass-kissing of these committee members. I think we?d be better off investigating them.

As for the music business personalities? The only man who didn?t come across as himself was Michael Rapino. Maybe because he?s Canadian, maybe because he?s a generation younger than his compatriots on the panel. One on one, Rapino is a mastermind. He?s self-deprecating and aligns himself with you like a fraternity brother, and then proceeds to weave a net that wraps you up tight, convincing you that he?s altruistic and has the true vision of the future. It?s akin to Steve Jobs, with just a little less assholity. Unlike his brethren on the panel, Mr. Rapino?s career is mostly in front of him. So he?s got something to prove. But he didn?t prove it here.

Jerry Mickelson represents the classic promoter. An angry force of nature. Just watch the movie "Fillmore" to see the venerated Bill Graham in action. He could pop off in an instant, at the tiniest offense. Classic concert promoters were entrepreneurs, they had to watch every nickel and dime, they were proud of their accomplishments. That?s Jerry.

As for Seth Hurwitz? If he were ever to lose his concert promotion business, unlike so many in the music industry, he could find another job. Eloquent, well-spoken, the opposite of winning through intimidation. Seth?s recitation of history, how we got here, was one of the highlights of the hearing. Unfortunately, it represents the past.

And Irving Azoff represents not only the past, but the future.

I was just waiting for one of the committee members to ask Irving about Sal Pisello. But they?ve probably got no idea who that man was, just like they were clueless when it came to the concert industry. Malcolm Gladwell should have held this hearing. Because he understands that it takes 10,000 hours to truly be a pro in any field. And the four men here are all pros, they all made good points, and all we got from the committee was Bruce Springsteen and Hannah Montana. The Senators were so clueless as to prove Irving?s point, that Ticketmaster is a front for the artists.

Bottom line, the music business is in trouble. And concert promotion is only one element of the music business. And no one has figured out how to fix the recorded music industry. Actually, one can argue that rights holders have done their best to kill the recorded music industry.

Watching this hearing reminded me of a similar one held regarding Napster almost ten years ago. The record labels succeeded in killing Napster, but then came KaZaA and now they?ve lost 45% of their sales. You?ve got to look to the future! The labels wanted CDs, priced at far north of ten bucks apiece. The heads of the labels weren?t computer-savvy, if they used computers at all. They not only couldn?t understand the greatness of Napster, they could not conceive that in the relatively near future, most people would want files, and that people would own much more music. If the labels didn?t want to charge? So be it. Then music would be free.

We?re building no new arena acts, never mind stadium attractions. As for sheds, if they were such a good deal, Live Nation would be promoting more shows in the venues and everybody wouldn?t be laughing about the business model. The only person who thinks sheds are a viable business is Michael Rapino, who owns almost all of them. Yet at this hearing Jerry and Seth talked about Bruce performing outdoors in the summer in sheds? Hysterical.

You know who wasn?t at this hearing?

AEG.

Jerry and Seth decided to go it alone, not to sell out to Sillerman. That was their choice. But they shouldn?t be protected from consequences with regard thereto in perpetuity. Irving Azoff built AEG for Philip Anschutz. In order to have another competitor to sell his talent to. Brilliant idea. One that could have been executed by Messrs. Mickelson and Hurwitz if they?d so chosen. Yup, look for a deep pocket to execute a strategy. Jerry and Seth wanted to remain fiercely independent. That?s like John DeLorean thinking that he could compete with not only GM, but Toyota. Or like Kaypro computer being pissed it?s not dominant today. Sometimes you?ve got to double down in order to continue to succeed on a first tier basis. If you choose not to do so, you don?t gain immunity.

So, you can sell your tour to AEG or Live Nation. One can argue that AEG has better venues. But AEG tends to only want the superstars. Which they are willing to pay handsomely for. Where?s the hearing ordering AEG to develop talent?

So, there is competition in the concert industry. It?s just that you?ve got to have very deep pockets to enter. Welcome to the twenty first century world.

Where was the manager at this hearing? Oh yeah, Irving bought almost all of them up. Just like Sillerman rolled up the concert industry twelve years ago. All I heard from individual managers was complaints that they could do it better. Well, they still can. But many acts want to align with Irving/Front Line.

And then we?ve got Ticketmaster?s mistake. The Springsteen debacle. That, along with Live Nation starting its own ticketing, may cause this merger to crater. Without these two faux pas, this merger passes muster much easier.

But let?s look at reality. Ticketmaster bought Tickets Now for growth, they didn?t want to lose out on the secondary market revenue. And Live Nation built its own ticketing enterprise BECAUSE THAT?S THE ONLY PLACE THERE ARE PROFITS!

We?re all in trouble here. Not only the public, supposedly protected by the government. Acts can?t get paid for recorded music, and unless they broke eons ago, almost no one wants to buy their music or see them live.

Live Nation has got such razor thin margins that its health is in trouble.

So what?s the solution?

That?s what I want to hear, solutions. None came from Jerry or Seth. Do they want to sign acts, give them advances like Live Nation or manage them like Irving? Nothing?s preventing them from employing this model. But they don?t want to, they want to live in 1976. As for the labels, they?ve always stolen from the acts, and now, with their 360 deals, they want to steal even more.

So how do we fix this?

Not by leaving things the way they are. Because they?re totally fucked.

Do I wish that Sillerman hadn?t rolled up the concert promoters? Yes, but for order to be maintained, Frank Barsalona would have had to continue to limit each promoter to his territory, and Frank?s power was broken by Michael Cohl, if not earlier.

Do I wish that the Telecommunications Act of 1996 hadn?t allowed radio consolidation? Absolutely. But I no longer listen to terrestrial radio, I?m against commercials, like so many other listeners.

Do I wish MTV still played videos? Of course. But I wouldn?t watch, when I can stream any video I want, instantly, online.

Things change. Can we admit that? What looks like a powerhouse today can be on the verge of bankruptcy tomorrow. GM? Remember they wanted to break up that company? The Japanese beat Detroit by building reliable cars, what a concept. Microsoft? Lost out to Google. All the money?s in paid search, Microsoft is laying people off. Applications are moving to the Web. What?s the future of Microsoft Office, never mind Windows?

You break power by creating something better. Whether it be more efficient, cheaper or better. Anybody can promote the concert of a new act. Very few people want to do it. You can take over the industry of developing acts tomorrow. The major labels sign very few artists and usually only those who can get radio airplay. Why can?t you manage and promote something people want to see?

Yes, Live Nation might offer a bunch of money to promote the act in the future, but Arcade Fire never signed to a major label.

So, emotionally I don?t want Ticketmaster and Live Nation to merge. I hate consolidation. But it happened in our industry and it can?t be denied. This merger should not be stopped until someone comes up with a better solution for protecting and developing talent. The labels are bankrupt when it comes to this. Irving and Rapino are trying to make the old acts money. As for the new ones, they?re trying to change the paradigm, where the act gets the lion?s share of the money from all revenue streams.

You can?t stop progress.

You can?t jet back to the past.

Do I trust Irving Azoff?

No.

But I don?t trust Bill Belichick either. But if I owned a football team, I?d want Bill to coach it. Because he might not be a nice guy, but he?s a winner. If you watch this hearing, you?ll see a bit of Irving. Only he joked in his prepared statement. He stood up to the Senators? questions. Isn?t that what you want?

I bet on Irving Azoff because he?s a winner. He?s not going to live forever. Nobody is. Give him the ball now and let him turn this business upside down, into one in which the acts have more control and more power.

If I wanted you to like me, if I wanted to please most of the people on this list, I?d rail against this merger. Let?s bring down Hubert Humphrey so Richard Nixon can be elected President! Let?s sue our customers because music should be paid for! Let?s bury our heads in the sand and refuse to see the freight train rolling down the track.

Conventionally the labels built acts, they created demand. Their ability to do that is a shadow of what it once was. Promoters need to build acts. And the more rights a promoter has, the better his chance of financial success.

As for whether Irving needed to sell Front Line to Live Nation instead of Ticketmaster? If everybody agrees the money is in the ticketing, isn?t that where you want to be?

You can?t predict the future. Could Ticketmaster and Live Nation merge and things be worse? Absolutely. But I?ve got no doubt that a competitor would arise. Certainly on the promotion side. Sometimes you?ve got to take a risk. This is one of those times.[/b]

The TICKETMASTER/LIVE NATION Merger:What does it mean for Consumers and the future of the Concert Business?
 

FDF12389

Diamond Member
Sep 8, 2005
5,234
7
76
Originally posted by: DLeRium
I love it more when the email pdf tickets have a fee.

<--- IT Operations and Scheduling Analyst


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