It is funny how they dont get it. Obama's plan is Bush on steroids. Tax cuts and extreme spending. Bush looks like a 65 pound punk fighting Mike Tyson compared to this.
It is funny how they dont get it. Obama's plan is Bush on steroids. Tax cuts and extreme spending. Bush looks like a 65 pound punk fighting Mike Tyson compared to this.
I read in the NYTimes or somewhere that support for the new bill was something like 55%, but it's now fallen to like 42%? Somethine like that.
Theres a reason the realists that actually run the major political parties ignore the lunatic fringe like you. They are not dumb enough to believe that they will hold the majority forever, and therefore wont tilt the rules too far into their own favor.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
- 35,787
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That is of course one reason they haven't done it yet. However, when one party's only plan to return to power is to keep damaging the economy with obstructionism and then try to blame the Democrats in 2010, the Democrats need to do what needs to be done to prevent that.
Otherwise they will see the "success" of Republican obstructionist strategy in California brought to the whole nation.
theeedude
Lifer
- Feb 5, 2006
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No, Democrats walk into 2010 bloodbath if they let the Republicans obstruct their economic recovery plans. No one struggling in this economy cares if the Democrats use nuclear option to implement the agenda they were elected last November to implement.
Also, when Republicans pulled the nuclear option, it was resolved by a gang of 14 compromise where the Democrats promised not to filibuster except under extreme circumstances. That is also an acceptable solution to me. But if Republicans think they will govern through the filibuster, they should be put in their place ASAP.
You 'librul media' people are hilarious. The same 'librul media' that has had Republicans on the news networks at way higher levels than Democrats on this issue?
Maybe, just maybe the reason why there isn't any polling on the 'stimulus plan' is that there isn't a single 'stimulus plan' to have an opinion on? Do you mean the House Democratic version? The House Republican version? The Senate Republican version? The Senate Democratic version? The soon to be conference committee version? The version Obama wants? Which one should we poll on? Or should we just poll 'HURR HURR U LIKE STIMULUS?'?
The reason why there isn't much polling on the plan, is because there isn't anything specific to poll about. Once a plan is finalized, you'll see polls coming out of your ass. Then again, I wouldn't want to interrupt your right wing persecution complex, so it's probably just because the librul media hates Amuuikuh.
There was polling done on the House version (the version that everyone on here seems to foam about the most), and Gallup found a slight majority of 52% of Americans supported it. As shown here. That's all pretty meaningless though, as the House version won't be the final version, or even particularly close to it.
You are delusional. If republicans block it the democrats can use it against them provided the American public supports the stimulus package. I question whether they truely do given the lack of polling information from the MSM. If it was a slam dunk nearly every story would include polling data being high.
That said taking away the filibuster would give the republicans a perfect storm to mount a comeback in 2010. Because the democrats will look like power hungry pigs that lined the coffers of their political allies and not the american public. Especially when this fails to do anything meaningful in the next 18 months.
I provided a link to polling done by Gallup in my post above yours that shows Americans support the House version by a slim margin. What the Republicans are really doing is covering their ass right now, but they will in the end vote for a stimulus bill in fairly decent numbers I think. (maybe 20%-30% of them, enough to make it 'bipartisan')
It doesn't matter what Americans think of the bill right now anyways. If things are getting better by the 2010 elections, the Democrats will point to the stimulus bill as being fabulous, and use it to club the Republicans into a bloody pulp. The Republicans know this, which is why I imagine they want to have a minority, but a noticeable minority of their party vote for it as well, in case it succeeds. If the economy still sucks, then the situation is reversed.
That's my take on it anyway.
I think people overestimate how much the actual effects of the stimulus matter. If by 2010 the economy is not still crashing into a pit, it will merely be a communications battle to convince the public that the stimulus prevented some sort of catastrophe. It is so difficult to determine the effects of this bill that once politicians get their hands on it, both sides are going to surround themselves with talking points and soundbites that will be at best half-truths.
Yes I saw your poll and as I suspected 52% isnt very good which is why we dont hear about it. If it was north of 60% it would be in the articles.
I sincerely doubt that. The difficulty is far more of a 'what the hell do we poll on' problem as there is no 'stimulus plan' to ask about. You can ask about the House version that has come and gone that won't matter in the end, but what's the point? You can't ask about support for the Senate version, because the bill isn't finalized yet. They have done polling on Americans' general support for a stimulus of some sort (and it polls above 70%), but what does that even mean? (oh, and this high level of support is also not mentioned in the articles).
Enough with the librul media paranoia already guys.
We can agree to disagree on this topic. I saw headline after headline about the lack of support for a Bush lead bank bailout then not a peep on this.
Well I would have to say I find it funny that all the liberal sites out there are screaming their heads off at what they consider the conservatively biased media coverage of the stimulus plan so far here and other places.
Seems like both sides think that the media is being deeply unfair to them. If anything that's evidence for doing a good job.
Imagine if the Dems had threatened to filibuster such an economic recovery package? it was judicial appointments that had the Dems upset back in '06. Can you imagine the "they hate our country" rhetoric that would be spewing from the GOP leaders if the Dems had threatened to filibuster something so obviously crucial to the health of the country?
That is why it is laughable that we are talking about taking OUT (longer term) measures intended to improve health care and energy infrastructure and put IN more tax cuts? huh? so they can just vote against it anyway and then blame you when it doesn't work?
They seem to not want there to be any economic recovery package. Their opposition to the stimulus needs to be framed in those terms, both in the press and in the senate debate. It's not because they want a 'better' stimulus bill, it's because they want one that won't work, for political reasons. Call them on it.
Let the Republicans actually filibuster. This is the best time to call them on their bullshit bluff. Make them stand there and prevent anything from getting done while the economy continues to fall downward. Make sure every single American who loses their job between the day the bill is introduced and the day it is passed, knows that it was the Republicans who could have saved it and didn't.
That is why it is laughable that we are talking about taking OUT (longer term) measures intended to improve health care and energy infrastructure and put IN more tax cuts? huh? so they can just vote against it anyway and then blame you when it doesn't work?
They seem to not want there to be any economic recovery package. Their opposition to the stimulus needs to be framed in those terms, both in the press and in the senate debate. It's not because they want a 'better' stimulus bill, it's because they want one that won't work, for political reasons. Call them on it.
Let the Republicans actually filibuster. This is the best time to call them on their bullshit bluff. Make them stand there and prevent anything from getting done while the economy continues to fall downward. Make sure every single American who loses their job between the day the bill is introduced and the day it is passed, knows that it was the Republicans who could have saved it and didn't.
The beef fiscal conservatives have is that the package is hardly stimulus, but instead a big pork bill that will do little to actually stimulate the economy. They are trying to ram a liberal wish list down the nations throat under the guise of stimulus, and screaming that there is no time to debate it or oppose it. That sounds awfully familiar. Patriot Act ring a bell? Perhaps the original Tarp plan? This bill was originally touted as a major infrastructure bill, but it is more pork that infrastructure. I have alot of good will towards Obama at the moment, but I cannot support this. If it was mostly funding for real infrastructure, ie rural broadband, power infrastructure, highway projects, I would be onboard. Seeing grants to performing arts foundations, STD prevention, etc just shows that Obama has put a new face on the same broken system.
Can you provide specifics on what is in the bill that is so objectionable. Many of the controversial items (birth control, national mall renovation, etc.) were taken out already. The best I heard Mitch McConnell come up with was $150 million for honeybees and $600 million for cars, both of which I could imagine reasonable explanations for (honeybees are dying off and hurting agriculture, cars might get better mpg and replacing them might have the same reasoning as making buildings more energy efficient). So in my mind if the two best examples the minority leader can come up with are not all that outrageous, then there must not be a lot there.
He repeated those twice by the way so it isn't like he didn't have time to provide other examples. Here is the best overview of the stimulus I could find, this has since been revised but it gives a basic rundown of where the money goes. Seems to me to be pretty well focused on infastructure, with government assistance programs spending alongside tax cuts to please both parties (and now more small business tax cuts are being offered): http://www.huffingtonpost.com/...ft-circu_n_158145.html
edit: Indeed the cars are being bought to get better mpg and to reduce emissions. So there is a reasonable explanation behind it and it is but a fraction of the bill. So the Republican strategy is to pick out what they deem a minor defect in the bill and then threaten a filibuster over it.
Fern
Elite Member
- Sep 30, 2003
- 26,907
- 174
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Three things off the top of head:
1. I keep hearing that only 7% of the huge amount is going to infrastrure projects (roads/bridges).
2. Only a fraction of the money will be spent is the next year. I believe if stimulus is needed, it is needed NOW. IMO, we don't need a hastily thought bill for money to be after 12/24 months. We can cross that 'bridge' (later years) when we get to it.
3. With something like +600 pages, I highly doubt all the pork has been pulled from this bill.
Whatever the politics, Obama promised us a clean bill with NO pork; this ain't it.
Fern
And of course one man's pork is another man's important stimulus funding. Something tells me that you and Obama would have very different views on it... so whatever bill ends up passing you can rest assured right now that it will have what YOU consider to be pork in it.
As far as how quickly the money will be spent, about half of the $800 or so billion is for extended unemployment benefits and tax cuts. Depending on how you want to look at it, you could consider ALL that money being spent within the next year. So, there's 50% being used immediately right off the bat.
Next comes the question of how fast you want them to spend the other money marked for infrastructure projects. They have to be bid, they have to be planned, etc. That doesn't happen overnight, particularly on such a massive scale. If you really want them to shovel money out the door that quickly that's fine, but you have to be willing to accept that a not insignificant percentage of the projects will be poorly planned or wasteful. Something tells me that if they just threw all this money at things that fast, instead of screaming about how it wasn't being spent fast enough, people here would be screaming about how wasteful it was. Honestly, which way would you prefer?
People always just throw out "it has PORK in it!" as a blanket condemnation. If you have a problem with specific funding, there are tons of people analyzing the bill, go find specific things you don't like. Don't just say "well I'm sure it's bad".
I don't care how the Obama porkulus is killed just that it is killed. Now of the GOP would swap the tax cuts and infrastructure spending thier plan would be solid. I don't like either plan but if I had to choose between tax cuts or pork I choose tax cuts. I would rather see the size of the bill cut in half and all the money go towards infrastructure type spending. If Obama wants pork and social spending put it in another bill.
Red Dawn
Elite Member
- Jun 4, 2001
- 57,529
- 3
- 0
Obama didn't draw up this Bill, the Dems in Congress did. Obama's depending on the Loyal Opposition and the public make such a big stink that the Dems in Congress will have no choice but to trim this Bill of all that pork or at least a large percentage of it
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