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Throw away those outdated LCDs and CRTs!

W

Wolfshanze

Senior member
Hey, I'm just wondering why this seems such a "hush-hush" technology... I'm sure some folks know about it, but I just heard about it today.

While the monitors don't exist today (you can't buy one now), it seems these may well be on store shelves by Christmas or early next year.

I personally hate my space-heater CRT that weighs a ton... but I'm a resolution-switching gamer, and I can't stand LCDs inferior non-native resolutions either (and their poor black levels and other issues). I've not bee happy with either CRT or LCD technology... I have both in the house, but use a CRT strictly for resolution switching, even though my room is always 10 degrees warmer then the rest of the house!

I digress... anyways, new technology SED is on the way. Should be here "relatively" soon, and if the article and technology is true, I can't see a single reason anyone would waste a nickel this year on a new LCD or CRT if by waiting a year you can invest in a shiny-new SED monitor... I know I want one already! First company to release a SED monitor is going to have my money in their pocket... I can't wait!
 
You've evidently missed this discussion the last few times. People have been talking about these for at least 2-3 years. So far, there has been a lot of talk but very little in terms of actual purchasable products.

Please search for like 18 bazillion threads on SED, OLED, and LCD displays, and the relatively benefits and drawbacks of each.
 
Yeah, well I guess I'm the last one to hear about everything... guess I need to spend more time here. I know it's not out yet, but it sounds promising. You mentioned this is a fixed-resolution like LCDs too... this true? Is there any techology for monitors that will allow sharp multiple-resolutions? Isn't there supposed to be a "thin CRT" techology coming out?
 
Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
Yeah, well I guess I'm the last one to hear about everything... guess I need to spend more time here. I know it's not out yet, but it sounds promising. You mentioned this is a fixed-resolution like LCDs too... this true? Is there any techology for monitors that will allow sharp multiple-resolutions?
Click to expand...

I've been through this before with other people -- there is no reason that a fixed-pixel display with a high enough dot pitch cannot look just like a CRT when running multiple resolutions. CRTs *also* have a 'native' resolution -- there are a fixed number of phosphors on the display, and everything effectively gets resampled to that resolution. There's nothing magical about them other than that the effective dot pitch is quite good compared to today's LCD monitors. Higher-density LCD, OLED, and SED monitors will make resolution scaling a lot better. And you might want to check out some newer LCD displays; IQ at non-native resolutions has gotten a lot better.

Isn't there supposed to be a "thin CRT" techology coming out?
Click to expand...

Well, some manufacturers have been working on conventional CRTs with tubes that aren't as deep, but most seem to be going towards either OLED or SED as the eventual replacement for CRTs and LCD/DLP displays. Basically, manufacturing CRTs sucks, and retailers don't like them because they're big and heavy and you can't stock them well, and a lot of consumers don't like them because they're big and heavy and large ones take over your living room or computer desk.
 
There's nothing magical about them other than that the effective dot pitch is quite good compared to today's LCD monitors. Higher-density LCD, OLED, and SED monitors will make resolution scaling a lot better.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is there is still hope for us resolution-switching gamers yet!?!

In lay-mans terms, a non-native resolution LCD may not scale well and be obviously fuzzy and/or lack clarity, while a non-native resolution SED will probably scale as well (or close enough) to what you would expect from a CRT?!?

If the end-result is that a SED monitor will make me as happy in multiple resolutions as a CRT monitor does, then I'm STILL waiting in line to be the first to buy one!
 
Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
There's nothing magical about them other than that the effective dot pitch is quite good compared to today's LCD monitors. Higher-density LCD, OLED, and SED monitors will make resolution scaling a lot better.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is there is still hope for us resolution-switching gamers yet!?!

In lay-mans terms, a non-native resolution LCD may not scale well and be obviously fuzzy and/or lack clarity, while a non-native resolution SED will probably scale as well (or close enough) to what you would expect from a CRT?!?

If the end-result is that a SED monitor will make me as happy in multiple resolutions as a CRT monitor does, then I'm STILL waiting in line to be the first to buy one!
Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that ANY display can look "as good as a CRT" if it has a high enough pixel density and the scaling algorithm doesn't totally suck. A 19" CRT usually has around ~1600x1200 phosphor triads, and a 22" CRT has somewhere around ~2000x1600 phosphor triads, and they are usually 'interleaved' so they are significantly closer together than the subpixels on an LCD display. This means they usually look okay at almost any resolution -- but unless your calibration is flawless, and you are running at no more than maybe 1600x1200 (or 1280x1024 on a 19" CRT), the image will not be as sharp as on a fixed-pixel display running at native. Because of the use of a deflected electron beam to do the scanning, it is also VERY hard to get a sharp image near the edges/corners of ANY CRT.

Basically, when you compare a 19" CRT to a 19" LCD panel, you're comparing an 18" viewable CRT with ~1600x1200 pixels to a 19" viewable LCD with exactly 1280x1024 pixels. Between the lower pixel density and the larger space between pixels on an LCD (which leads to the so-called 'screen door effect'), the LCD just doesn't look as good at multiple resolutions. But if you had a 19" LCD that had 3840x3072 pixels, it would probably look better than the CRT at any resolution, and would just blow it away at native.

SEDs are supposed to have a very high pixel density (even higher than most CRTs), but we'll just have to wait and see how the commercial models turn out (and how much they cost). I'm going to CES, so if there are any there, I'll try to get a look.
 
SEDs are supposed to have a very high pixel density (even higher than most CRTs), but we'll just have to wait and see how the commercial models turn out (and how much they cost). I'm going to CES, so if there are any there, I'll try to get a look.
Click to expand...
Lucky you... I haven't been to a computer and technology show since like Cologne Germany in 1990 (Amiga was the king).

Have fun at CES... where's it at this year and when? Share your stories, especially about SED and new monitor technology if you can.
 
Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
SEDs are supposed to have a very high pixel density (even higher than most CRTs), but we'll just have to wait and see how the commercial models turn out (and how much they cost). I'm going to CES, so if there are any there, I'll try to get a look.
Click to expand...
Lucky you... I haven't been to a computer and technology show since like Cologne Germany in 1990 (Amiga was the king).

Have fun at CES... where's it at this year and when? Share your stories, especially about SED and new monitor technology if you can.
Click to expand...

CES is this weekend in Las Vegas. If I see anything interesting on the SED/OLED/other random display technologies front, I'll be sure to post something about it.
 
Speaking of which, what's your thoughts on SED vs OLED technology... is this going to be another Beta/VHS format war for the king of monitor technology, or will the two live in harmory? Should they be available at roughly the same time or is one supposedly closer to being on a store shelf near you?

What (if any) are the major user differances between SED and OLED... I'm not looking for a bunch of technical jargon, but something like "SED is better at doing-X, while OLED is better at doing-Y".

Sorry to pick your brain, but you obviously know more about this then I do (which isn't hard, since I know little about these new formats).
 
Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
Speaking of which, what's your thoughts on SED vs OLED technology... is this going to be another Beta/VHS format war for the king of monitor technology, or will the two live in harmory? Should they be available at roughly the same time or is one supposedly closer to being on a store shelf near you?

What (if any) are the major user differances between SED and OLED... I'm not looking for a bunch of technical jargon, but something like "SED is better at doing-X, while OLED is better at doing-Y".

Sorry to pick your brain, but you obviously know more about this then I do (which isn't hard, since I know little about these new formats).
Click to expand...

Basically, OLEDs are supposed to be very light, potentially VERY thin (and/or flexible) displays. They are essentially like LCD displays, but with much lower response time, and much better black level/contrast ratio.

SEDs are thinner and lighter than CRTs, and may have higher pixel density than anything else (including today's CRTs), but will probably end up being significantly thicker and heavier than OLED or LCD flat panels. They are not as thick as a CRT, but it would be extremely difficult to make them flexible, and they may still be quite heavy if the front panel is glass rather than plastic. They should, however, match a CRT in terms of IQ.

If both technologies pan out in the next few years, I suspect they will coexist, displacing LCD/Plasma/DLP in TVs and computer monitors (except for LCD/DLP front projection, and maybe LCD/DLP rear projection for big, cheap displays). OLEDs are *already* seeing use in portable electronics (a number of cellphones and cameras released in the last year use them), and once scaled up will be an excellent choice for any sort of portable display device (for instance, in a laptop, or for portable DVD players, or just smaller TVs). SEDs would be a better choice for home theater or desktop computer uses, where you can install them once and rarely have to move them.

The only problems with OLED right now are lifespan (being worked on; currently you only get 10,000 hours or so of usable life in mass-produced models) and manufacturing cost (will get better once large-scale manufacturing facilities are built). SEDs are more up in the air, as they *say* they should be cheap and easy to produce (although everyone always says that about anything new), but there has been little to show for it so far.
 
Matthias: I still don't understand why you don't have an elite title yet. You have some of the most informative posts in Video hands down, and are always eager to help someone. Anyhow, nice overview, and have fun at CES. 🙂
 
Great information. Is there a way to tell the native resolution of a CRT display? I have one at work (Dell) and am wondering what it would be. It is a 17incher, but an older model.
 
i'd say its probably whatever the max resolution the display is capable of... so likely 1600x1200, or 1280x960(1280x1024)..
 
Anything new to replace LCD's is good, cause I personally cant stand em. I use a CRT at home, but at work I've used several LCD's, and I still dont like any of them.
 
throw away those old computers based on electrons...nano technology based on photons are soon to come....should be here by next christmas or so and run infinitely faster and better....

apparently you don't understand the term, adoption phase...see 8086, ega graphics, dvds, etc.
 
Most technophiles knew and know about SED, kind of surprised you had not with 500+ post here as there have been many threads on the subject. The average consumer however get their information from ads and mainstream media news. All ads and most news reports are generated by the manufacturers themselves and they would not want it to become widely known a year or more ahead of time that SED will be vastly superior and just as light weight as products they are selling now for $5K a pop.

There is bigger and bigger technology just around the corner for SED as well considering how advanced nano manufacturing is getting. By the end of this decade, we will start seeing the monitor that rolls up like paper, can be scotch taped to a wall and give an image better then CRT.

As far as being crazy to buy now, that can be said about most technology at any given time. Right now one can get a 50 inch 3rd gen Samsung DLP for $1200. That's going to be pretty nice for at least 5 years no matter how good SED is. Ditto with a 20 inch LCD 8 ms gaming screen.
 
Originally posted by: Skott
Its the 21st Century. Where are the Holograms?? ;-)
Click to expand...

lmao, i wish we had holodecks and stuff. Face it gentlemen the future sold us out. instead of flying skateboards and and holograms, we get.........................cellphones that dont work, and suv's that suck the life out of money in your wallet(gas).....and thats the future we have. At least we have COD2 😀
 
Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
Hey, I'm just wondering why this seems such a "hush-hush" technology... I'm sure some folks know about it, but I just heard about it today.

While the monitors don't exist today (you can't buy one now), it seems these may well be on store shelves by Christmas or early next year.

I personally hate my space-heater CRT that weighs a ton... but I'm a resolution-switching gamer, and I can't stand LCDs inferior non-native resolutions either (and their poor black levels and other issues). I've not bee happy with either CRT or LCD technology... I have both in the house, but use a CRT strictly for resolution switching, even though my room is always 10 degrees warmer then the rest of the house!

I digress... anyways, new technology SED is on the way. Should be here "relatively" soon, and if the article and technology is true, I can't see a single reason anyone would waste a nickel this year on a new LCD or CRT if by waiting a year you can invest in a shiny-new SED monitor... I know I want one already! First company to release a SED monitor is going to have my money in their pocket... I can't wait!
Click to expand...


Might want to update your wacked-out dated computer first, eh? AGP ftw! lmao...hypocrisy at its finest!
 
Originally posted by: Matthias99
Originally posted by: Wolfshanze
There's nothing magical about them other than that the effective dot pitch is quite good compared to today's LCD monitors. Higher-density LCD, OLED, and SED monitors will make resolution scaling a lot better.
Click to expand...
So what you're saying is there is still hope for us resolution-switching gamers yet!?!

In lay-mans terms, a non-native resolution LCD may not scale well and be obviously fuzzy and/or lack clarity, while a non-native resolution SED will probably scale as well (or close enough) to what you would expect from a CRT?!?

If the end-result is that a SED monitor will make me as happy in multiple resolutions as a CRT monitor does, then I'm STILL waiting in line to be the first to buy one!
Click to expand...

What I'm saying is that ANY display can look "as good as a CRT" if it has a high enough pixel density and the scaling algorithm doesn't totally suck. A 19" CRT usually has around ~1600x1200 phosphor triads, and a 22" CRT has somewhere around ~2000x1600 phosphor triads, and they are usually 'interleaved' so they are significantly closer together than the subpixels on an LCD display. This means they usually look okay at almost any resolution -- but unless your calibration is flawless, and you are running at no more than maybe 1600x1200 (or 1280x1024 on a 19" CRT), the image will not be as sharp as on a fixed-pixel display running at native. Because of the use of a deflected electron beam to do the scanning, it is also VERY hard to get a sharp image near the edges/corners of ANY CRT.

Basically, when you compare a 19" CRT to a 19" LCD panel, you're comparing an 18" viewable CRT with ~1600x1200 pixels to a 19" viewable LCD with exactly 1280x1024 pixels. Between the lower pixel density and the larger space between pixels on an LCD (which leads to the so-called 'screen door effect'), the LCD just doesn't look as good at multiple resolutions. But if you had a 19" LCD that had 3840x3072 pixels, it would probably look better than the CRT at any resolution, and would just blow it away at native.

SEDs are supposed to have a very high pixel density (even higher than most CRTs), but we'll just have to wait and see how the commercial models turn out (and how much they cost). I'm going to CES, so if there are any there, I'll try to get a look.
Click to expand...

Yup, high DPI LCD's FTW! I saw a 15" laptop screen at 1920x1200. The picture quality is just absolutely beautiful. Add on the flat glass and you get the vibrant CRT colors with none of that ****** screen door effect, and you get much deeper blacks.
 
Originally posted by: virtualgames0
Yup, high DPI LCD's FTW! I saw a 15" laptop screen at 1920x1200. The picture quality is just absolutely beautiful. Add on the flat glass and you get the vibrant CRT colors with none of that ****** screen door effect, and you get much deeper blacks.
Click to expand...

I'm gonna e-mail all the LCD panel manufacturers and ask them about their plans on that. I can't wait for these high-res displays.
 
I am VERY glad to see some real work being done on cold cathode CRTs (ata: SED)! I first saw some info on these guys close to 10 years ago. At that time, they were just getting around to the proof of concept and had a long way to go to production. The SEDs look like they are pretty close. I just hope they can make them cheap enough (well, cheap enough a year after they come out. Because when they are first release....)

Of course, I just picked up a cheap 24" Sony wide screen CRT monitor to tide me over until something like SED is out and proven. And yes, I am also in the "hates LCD" catagory!
 
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