Thoughts on games with permadeath?

Mai72

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2012
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I'm currently playing Don't Starve on Android and I really like the idea of permadeath. You really need to be careful or else all of that work is for nothing when you die. It's back to the beginning.

This is also the downside. As you start growing your character and start leveling him/her up the permadeath becomes a constant reminder that you need to be careful of everything you do in Don't Starve. I'm less likely to take chances. I'll look online to find the solution before I start experimenting. It sucks to start over again when you've made it to day 40 and you've got your farms, tent and walls setup.

Are there any other games with permadeath? I know you can mod Skyrim so it has it. Do you guys like the idea of permadeath or would you rather be able to save the game. I find that constantly hitting save takes the element of danger out of the game. I find that if I can reload the game anytime I want than dying isn't an issue.
 

Newbian

Lifer
Aug 24, 2008
24,491
472
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To be fair this is what mods are for to disable such things. :D

The problem is the game cannot have a ton of gameplay if it has this feature as no one like spending hours only to loose everything usually.

Granted some are fun like ftl still.
 
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DigDog

Lifer
Jun 3, 2011
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im playing angband, i play minecraft IC2 experimental in hardcore mode (permadeath; building the most advanced machines can take a week of real time ..), and FTL. besides these, i only play FPS games, which although dont have permadeath, you are still responsible for your mistakes. so, yeah.
the issue is when a permadeath game is badly balanced, and you die simply because the game decided you gonna die now.
 

Red Storm

Lifer
Oct 2, 2005
14,213
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I'll look online to find the solution before I start experimenting.
How exactly is this any different than reloading a save? Both are in essence cheats against permadeath.

I prefer games let me decide. If I want to save a million times, let me. If I want to risk it, let me.
 

JTsyo

Lifer
Nov 18, 2007
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FTL has been the only one that I've played lately that had permadeath. It really sucks when it's luck that gets you killed. Reminds me of the horrow stories of those playing D2 and losing internet connection.
 
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Stg-Flame

Platinum Member
Mar 10, 2007
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Pretty much most rogue-likes have permadeath to some degree. Binding of Isaac. Rogue Legacy. Hero Siege (in a way). FTL. This War of Mine. Wizard's Lizard. RoTMG. etc. etc. etc.

Other games feature Hardcore modes like Terraria, ARPGs (Grim Dawn, Titan Quest, Diablo series), Hero Siege, etc. that allow you to play until you die. Some people enjoy this feature, others do not.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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Perma death means you play it safe and take no chances. It also means the game difficulty has to be toned down to prevent overly frustrated players. I don't like it, because it means I can't push myself, or fight what seems like near impossible fights and find a way to overcome them, because those lead to the possibility of you losing your character and starting over. It's just not fun with that hanging over my head.
 

rstrohkirch

Golden Member
May 31, 2005
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I think it works better as a top tier difficulty modifier in a traditional game.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
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Perma death means you play it safe and take no chances. It also means the game difficulty has to be toned down to prevent overly frustrated players. I don't like it, because it means I can't push myself, or fight what seems like near impossible fights and find a way to overcome them, because those lead to the possibility of you losing your character and starting over. It's just not fun with that hanging over my head.
Sounds like it's just not for you, then.

Using Diablo 3 as my personal example, refusing to ever push yourself is boring. So you push yourself. And my greatest thrills in Diablo were during HC where things got hairy. It's just a different mind-set. I can't throw my body at a level to speed up my XP gain or have that slightly better chance at a good drop. It's tense, and I enjoy it. I've lost two HC toons in D3.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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Sounds like it's just not for you, then.

Using Diablo 3 as my personal example, refusing to ever push yourself is boring. So you push yourself. And my greatest thrills in Diablo were during HC where things got hairy. It's just a different mind-set. I can't throw my body at a level to speed up my XP gain or have that slightly better chance at a good drop. It's tense, and I enjoy it. I've lost two HC toons in D3.
I agree that it's not for me.

Losing only 2 HC characters almost certainly means you never go into a fight without knowing you can win. HC forces you to be conservative. While you have grown to think of any risk at all as being a big risk taker, your thoughts would change without playing HC. You'd be willing to attempt harder things, or things which you just aren't sure what whill happen.

I realize you do enjoy it, and you do get that thrill. I simply do not like playing in that restrictive manner.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
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It means I don't spend most of my time there because my friends don't. I have a WD in HC again, and they're maybe one Torment level lower than I would on SC, just because playing stupid is not the same as taking a big risk. Obviously two of them died, and it was exactly because I went into fights I shouldn't have. I also spent a large amount of time in Dungeons of Dredmor, another permadeath game. Lost way more than 2 toons, I'll tell you that. Dabbled in Rogue Legacy and FTL as well.

Thanks for playing, though.

Tell me how throwing my body at level over and over again is a bigger risk than even playing a permadeath character. In the case of Diablo, there is no risk. I gave why I liked it, not why you're stupid for not liking it. Your counter doesn't fit because you don't know me or my play preferences.
 

ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
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For some games permadeath is a defining characteristic. Nethack or DCSS for example would not be nearly the same games if you could simply reload every time you drank the wrong unidentified potion. It makes sense for those games to have that feature built in.

Otherwise, I agree that permadeath should be a difficulty setting. When I am playing something like Pillars of Eternity I believe more difficult battles are created with the idea that I will fail a few times until I can figure the correct tactics out. Permadeath in such a situation would be beyond frustrating, at least until the game mechanics have been well mastered with a couple of game completions.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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It means I don't spend most of my time there because my friends don't. I have a WD in HC again, and they're maybe one Torment level lower than I would on SC, just because playing stupid is not the same as taking a big risk. Obviously two of them died, and it was exactly because I went into fights I shouldn't have. I also spent a large amount of time in Dungeons of Dredmor, another permadeath game. Lost way more than 2 toons, I'll tell you that. Dabbled in Rogue Legacy and FTL as well.

Thanks for playing, though.

Tell me how throwing my body at level over and over again is a bigger risk than even playing a permadeath character. In the case of Diablo, there is no risk. I gave why I liked it, not why you're stupid for not liking it. Your counter doesn't fit because you don't know me or my play preferences.
I told you why I don't like permadeath. No matter how much you tell me that you play the same way, it doesn't make it true. You have evolved your play style around permadeath. I evolved my play around not having it. In Diablo, the difference is your build and gear, more so then about looking for a challenging fight to over come. While you'll build conservative builds which can survive almost anything, someone who doesn't play HC, will build more offensive builds to see things blow up. In other games, you'd just avoid areas with higher risk until you hit higher levels, while I might challenge myself in zones I don't belong in, to see if I could do it.

I never said there is anything wrong with you playing that way, only that permadeath changes your play style in a way I don't like.
 

sweenish

Diamond Member
May 21, 2013
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I told you why I don't like permadeath. No matter how much you tell me that you play the same way, it doesn't make it true. You have evolved your play style around permadeath. I evolved my play around not having it. In Diablo, the difference is your build and gear, more so then about looking for a challenging fight to over come. While you'll build conservative builds which can survive almost anything, someone who doesn't play HC, will build more offensive builds to see things blow up. In other games, you'd just avoid areas with higher risk until you hit higher levels, while I might challenge myself in zones I don't belong in, to see if I could do it.

I never said there is anything wrong with you playing that way, only that permadeath changes your play style in a way I don't like.
I build a little more toughness into my HC toons. If I built only around toughness as you suggest, I would never move beyond T6. Have you looked at HC leaderboards? Not that far behind SC. You are still applying your mentality around permadeath to everyone, and it's simply not true.

And throwing your body at enemies isn't a challenge. Not sure how it is. "Oh look I died a whole bunch. Guess I don't belong here yet. What a challenge." That's not a challenge. That's an experiment.

And at NO POINT did I say I play it the same way. I don't. That's you making more assumptions or just putting words into my mouth. But I also don't mitigate risk to the extent you imply. My WD is playing T7 with a full set and like one supporting item right now. And instead of a third offensive gem, I'm using an Esoteric. That's about the extent of my extra mitigation right now. That's about the same difficulty SC would be doing, depending on the set and support. My set is Zuni, and with just the one support item, T7 is about right. I mean, sure, I've debated dropping back to T6 just because my kill speed isn't the greatest, but that's literally the only reason.

It's fine you don't like the idea of permadeath. I've said that. But you're arguing with a straw man, because nothing you've said applies to me, nor does it apply to the majority of players who play permadeath games/modes. Your idea of a "challenge" is not a challenge. I don't tank my toons to the point of invincibility, and neither do quite a few other HC players. Playing cautiously is not the tip-toe/pussy-footing you describe.
 

clok1966

Golden Member
Jul 6, 2004
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Been doing POE lately on perma, and got to say one step from endgame and dying is a real Bummer, its not a short trip and while it wasn't a cheat in way the game can be a bit "cheap" at times. Again, its more me then the game really, but the "named" mobs are hard, add in the Specials (harder then normal mobs) and then swarmers.. mobs that dont kill with force but with numbers.. you stack all 3 and its teeth and nails. Of course a good player shouldn't encounter this if they are thinking... but to get to that point you must be doing something right, but it is easy to make one mistake.

me i like the challenge of Perma death, but in games like POE where a server spike of lag can kill you it can be frustrating at times. If the non human things could be factored out (lag, etc) it would be dang good.
 

Count_Chocula

Junior Member
Nov 7, 2016
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I don't guess I've ever played a game with true perma-death. I will tell you that, Dark Souls has been my favorite game series to date, though. Death is a big deal and that risk is always present. Sounds like a better format than having to start from scratch.

Sent from my Nexus 6
 

Rifter

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,464
720
126
permadeath is stupid.
couldnt agree more.

I love the game dont starve but it just ends up being you play the first few days over and over and over and over and over again. You either play like a pussy so you can progress or take chances and just end up doing it all over and over.
 
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ControlD

Diamond Member
Apr 25, 2005
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couldnt agree more.

I love the game dont starve but it just ends up being you play the first few days over and over and over and over and over again. You either play like a pussy so you can progress or take chances and just end up doing it all over and over.
And yet you can find plenty of people that can progress through Don't Starve just fine.

Playing games with permadeath, and particularly roguelike games, just requires a different approach. The first several runs are simply to learn game mechanics, stupid mistakes to be avoided,etc. As your skill level and knowledge of the game increases so will the length of a typical play. I can understand that this isn't for everyone though. My favorite games tend to be rogue styles games with permadeath because there is a constant building tension with a good run. Games like Nethack, Dredmor, TOME4, and DCSS (along with scores of others) simply wouldn't be as fun without permadeath. You would win those games 100% of the time with the ability to save and reload at any point.
 

Larochepiano

Junior Member
Oct 13, 2016
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When I was younger I'd hate games with permadeath, I could not stand it. One of my friend introduced me to Path of exile, a diablo like game, at first I was playing only standard mode, but then he slowly converted me to play Hardcore (permadeath) and I loved it. It took me some time to understand that permadeath is only a game mode, if you don't like it don't play it, but don't say it's crap or bullshit, it's like in any games don't play Very hard difficulty if you can't manage it.
 

bystander36

Diamond Member
Apr 1, 2013
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I build a little more toughness into my HC toons. If I built only around toughness as you suggest, I would never move beyond T6. Have you looked at HC leaderboards? Not that far behind SC. You are still applying your mentality around permadeath to everyone, and it's simply not true
Leader boards are full of people with the best gear. You don't start with the best gear. As I mentioned in my post, you play it safer, you build more conservative, or wait to do some things until you have better gear or levels. And you are really focusing on 1 game. I'm talking in general as well. Not specific to Diablo 3 (or what ever version you are referring too).

And throwing your body at enemies isn't a challenge. Not sure how it is. "Oh look I died a whole bunch. Guess I don't belong here yet. What a challenge." That's not a challenge. That's an experiment.
Trying to fight something that is considered too tough, with a chance of success is a challenge. It may also be considered an experiment as well. You never really know what is possible, or your limits until you try it. Playing HC means you don't make those attempts. I do a lot of whitewater kayaking, and we have a saying. If you aren't flipping, you aren't pushing yourself. You don't learn to do anything without some failures. Playing HC, means you need to avoid those failures, but limiting your experimenting, and pushing to see your limits.

I also played WoW, and raided. Raiding was all about learning fights, and it took many failures to advance further into a raid dungeon. With permadeath, you either could not have raid zones of this manner, or you simply could never progress in them as a HC player.

And at NO POINT did I say I play it the same way. I don't. That's you making more assumptions or just putting words into my mouth. But I also don't mitigate risk to the extent you imply. My WD is playing T7 with a full set and like one supporting item right now. And instead of a third offensive gem, I'm using an Esoteric. That's about the extent of my extra mitigation right now. That's about the same difficulty SC would be doing, depending on the set and support. My set is Zuni, and with just the one support item, T7 is about right. I mean, sure, I've debated dropping back to T6 just because my kill speed isn't the greatest, but that's literally the only reason.

It's fine you don't like the idea of permadeath. I've said that. But you're arguing with a straw man, because nothing you've said applies to me, nor does it apply to the majority of players who play permadeath games/modes. Your idea of a "challenge" is not a challenge. I don't tank my toons to the point of invincibility, and neither do quite a few other HC players. Playing cautiously is not the tip-toe/pussy-footing you describe.
Some how I think you have read something I did not write, or mean the way you think I wrote it. You seem to be defending your right to permadeath. Great, have at it. I simply pointed out why I don't like it. And I may have misunderstood your previous posts, in saying that permadeath doesn't stop you from playing with risk. What I'm saying is you have to play extra conservative, because the risk of death is so high. I prefer to play in a way to push my limits, and see what is possible, go into zones when I'm barely capable of succeeding. This type of play is obviously not possible with HC.
 
Feb 26, 2013
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Ether was one of my favorite PVPs. You have to be very careful about what you do. Making it past a certain level was an achievement. It really made the game immersive.
 

OCNewbie

Diamond Member
Jul 18, 2000
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How exactly is this any different than reloading a save? Both are in essence cheats against permadeath.
Well, you still actually have to properly execute the action in-game, and presumably, unless it's like a puzzle game, or a turn-based game, where it's incredibly difficult to make a wrong move, you could mess up and still die.
 

Elcs

Diamond Member
Apr 27, 2002
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Permadeath is great... in most cases.

RimWorld being a modern example of where it's a very fun concept, ADOM/Nethack/Other TRUE roguelikes being old examples of it being great.

Permadeath for me represents the challenge between the game and the player. I hate Diablo/Path of Exile "Hardcore" modes because they are not a challenge between you and the game, that challenge line is blurred by the internet connection and even though my 32ms ping is quite stable there's nothing stopping the internet from making that 300ms at the wrong time and wiping out hours of work.
 
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